LED Headlights - Help needed with altering beam pattern.

[nerys]

I finally found some viable LED lights I can use as headlamps for my car (geo metro) $30 on deal extreme!

10w 3500k (more like 4500 which is nice no blue and only a tiny bit of yellow good warm white in my book)

700 lumens. so I got 4 of them. 1400 lumens per pair is exactly what my current lamps put out now each.

in town I will use 2 when its darker I will use all 4. if this works out I will install another set in the bumper as fog lamps / "boosters" for when I really do need "high beams"

the light is clean the light is good but the pattern is NOT the desired "spot" seems way more floody than would be usable in an automotive application.

SO what can I do with optics to modify the beam pattern? Tighten it up.

They have issues (the emitters is NOT well secured to the aluminum housing so I am going to drill the second hold that china should have drilled to add the second screw to secure the emitter.

this is the lamp I got
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/10w-3200k-700-lumen-warm-white-led-spot-light-bulb-12v-55324

at this price it was worth the gamble since even if they did not work out in the car there is plenty of other things I can do with such an interesting lamp :-)

Seems some are running at 5w. even better I don't mind adding more and having improved lifespan at the lower wattage. though it means I will need 6 to equal my existing lights.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[rob3rto]

Someone over on HIDPlanet used a pair of these as reverse lights. Good light output for that but no way enough for headlight use.

 

[nerys]

MEh I already have them so I am going to try :-) they "claim" to put out 700 lumens. thats half of one headlight for my car (Geo Metro 1400 lumens each) so I got 4 of them. if its within 80% thats good enough for me. I just need to adjust the beam pattern. The car is fine with one headlight so 80% of both should work peachy.

I am trying to arrange it so I can go without an alternator (and waterpump) to increase my fuel economy. so going LED headlights is pretty important as thats an 8amp draw in my car.

I am wondering if I can do something like what those "projector" headlights do. IE collimate the light a little to make it project further. ie closer to a headlight beam pattern.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

MEh I already have them so I am going to try :-) they "claim" to put out 700 lumens. thats half of one headlight for my car (Geo Metro 1400 lumens each) so I got 4 of them. if its within 80% thats good enough for me. I just need to adjust the beam pattern. The car is fine with one headlight so 80% of both should work peachy.

I am trying to arrange it so I can go without an alternator (and waterpump) to increase my fuel economy. so going LED headlights is pretty important as thats an 8amp draw in my car.

I am wondering if I can do something like what those "projector" headlights do. IE collimate the light a little to make it project further. ie closer to a headlight beam pattern.

Will this car will be driven on public roads in a jurisdiction that subscribes to ECE regulations, or FMVSS108 (or CMVSS108 for our northern friends)? If so, as intriguing as those lights may be, they're not headlights. To be a headlight, it must conform to a host of well-defined, measurable, and codified standards. "Closer to a headlight beam pattern" is not a real headlight beam pattern.

Ecomodding can be a great thing, but not when it puts you and others at risk.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

<sigh> He's right. Unless on private road/track, the modded lights won't be legal, no matter how well they work.

Must admit I'm curious about running w/ no water pump. It's been MANY years since we saw (Model T type) cars with "thermo-siphon" instead of water pump, and those were not size/weight efficient. Also, one can run lights and ignition on battery for a while (ask anyone who has had an alternator die on the road), but there's no free lunch; you will use power at home to recharge the battery, and that's part of the total energy cost of operating the vehicle.

 

[dmk9561]

Doing stuff for the fractional benefit of reducing headlight power is much more difficult than many other more effective mods. Running the engine without the alternator is probably not going to be a net improvement since the alternator is going to draw a heavier load to catch the battery charge back up when it is cut back on. Running the engine without a water pump would probably get it hot pretty quickly under any load. It won't do much Model-T style convection cooling, especially since the pump would still be in the way.

I've heard of some benefits on Metros using some hypermiling techniques and by building a long pointy rear extension. I doubt that cutting the headlamp wattage with LEDs would make a measurable difference, especially relative to some of this other kind of stuff. I did like the Metro I saw online once that had a half-width cabin for aerodynamics.

 

[-Virgil-]

The other replies you're getting are correct -- there's no way to hack an existing headlamp to turn it into anything like a safe or legal LED headlamp. You don't mention the year of your Geo Metro, but some of those have a headlight setup that takes a single 165 x 100 mm sealed beam on each side. JW Speaker makes an all-LED high/low beam headlamp in that form factor.

 

[Ken_McE]

I am trying to arrange it so I can go without an alternator... to increase my fuel economy.

How do you make the spark plugs spark with no alternator?

 

[dmk9561]

How do you make the spark plugs spark with no alternator?

It'll run for a while on the battery charge, but that will quickly stop. I've done it a few times when a belt broke or alternator died, and I've never run out of electricity, but I've always been careful about accessory use in those situations. I've never had to do it with the headlights on, but that would kill it much quicker. Turn off every accessory, roll a window down if it's hot, and be ready to get out of the way if it quits.

 

[nerys]

with the battery? have you never driven a car with a bad alternator? it runs till the battery dies. 2 deep cycle batteries will run a geo metro a very very long time (300-500 miles to full DOD 100-250 to 50% DOD depending on upgrades and how much stuff you have turned on)

even fully stock EVERYTHING turned on AC Heat blower on max all lights on wipers going you will get 60miles to 50% DOD and thats on a starter battery.

I am not too concerned with the law. if the lumens are equivalent the color is equivalent and the beam pattern are equivalent I don't care about the law and safety will NOT be impacted. Some may not like that but I don't care. I will worry about the safety aspect (I am anal retentive about safety when driving a sardine can ie geo metro (1994) you MUST keep safety in mind or your dead :-)

to me its not a fractional benefit. in MANY areas I drive you really don't even NEED headlights (technicall) its so bright (the driver does not need them OBVIOUSLY you need them so others can see YOU) but you get my point. in those cases I can run TWO lamps (like my low beams on half power or like driving with one lamp out) when out in dark territory turn on all 4 now its THE SAME lumens as my normal sealed beam lamps.

its not a fractional benefit because this is not your typical car. its a 1600 pound Geo Metro with a 49hp 3cyl 1 liter engine and a 55amp alternator that saps a LOT of power from the engine.

if I could remove that power suck I could see a rather significant boost in fuel economy. My Fuel Economy difference during the day (minimal load of alternator) and at night (BIG load on alternator running the 8amp headlights and probable 5-8 amps in marker lights) is over 8mpg difference.

since my driving is 50/50 JUST removing the extra "night time load" from the equation would result in a 4mpg upgrade. that would essentially put me back to a cost per mile like what gas prices were 2 months ago. thats nothing to scoff at.

then remove the alternator ALL TOGETHER and the WATER PUMP all together (replacing with electric water pump) now the "misc" load on my engine is ZERO. it will only have function at that point MOVE the car and doing this would let it do that MUCH more efficiently.

with 3 deep cycle batteries I should be able to only need to plug it in to recharge ONCE a week without going below 50-60% DOD.

twice a week in the winter. I will leave the stock water pump and alternator in the car (since my driving is primarily continious motion driving IE few stops the extra mass will have no measurable effect on my FE) this way I can throw the belt on in an emergency (battery failure water pump failure etc.. etc..)

as for transferring the power to my home. thats correct and I LIKE THAT. want to know why? power at home is MANY MANY MANY orders of magnitude cheaper than gasoline. SO MUCH SO that I can easily 100% IGNORE the cost of electricity at home to recharge the batteries. it would be measured in CENTS per week. IIRC under 35 cents a week. so it if gets me even .5mpg increase (I expect over 5) it will MORE than pay for the electricity usage many times over again.

The LAW is meant to profit the government and to prevent people from putting potentially dangerous crap on the market.

if I keep the lumens beam pattern and color "DOT LIKE" I have met the spirit of the law and am satisfied.

the JW Speaker lamps are interesting but OUCH 3.6 amps and only 750 lumens ??? 1300 raw lumens. those lights are horrendous !! even if we ignore the effective lumens and assume it puts out 1300 lumens (raw lumens) at 50 watts its only getting 26 lumens per watt ?? (15 effective lumens per watt)

Are you kidding? even chinese JUNK puts out 60-70 lumens per watt and this ignores that their optics throw away half the lumens. I am scared to ask how much they WANT for that "junk"

and they only save me 5 watts? worthless.

either way the subject of this thread is not the legality of safety. its HOW do I modify the optics. IE what do I have to do to get a more "spot" like beam pattern from an emitter.

would sticking a projector headlamp housing over it do anything toward this objective?

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Headlights, the law, Rule 11, and other considerations

I am not too concerned with the law. if the lumens are equivalent the color is equivalent and the beam pattern are equivalent I don't care about the law and safety will NOT be impacted. Some may not like that but I don't care. I will worry about the safety aspect (I am anal retentive about safety when driving a sardine can ie geo metro (1994) you MUST keep safety in mind or your dead :-)

But *we* are. We being people who know what the law is for, and we being the people who know that Rule 11 exists to protect people from bad advice and the forum from being construed as facilitating illegal activity.

The lumens and color might be equivalent, but the beam pattern is not equivalent.

in MANY areas I drive you really don't even NEED headlights (technicall) its so bright (the driver does not need them OBVIOUSLY you need them so others can see YOU) but you get my point. in those cases I can run TWO lamps (like my low beams on half power or like driving with one lamp out) when out in dark territory turn on all 4 now its THE SAME lumens as my normal sealed beam lamps.

You may 'technically' not need them, but legally you do. Most states have requirements that headlights are to be operated in the nighttime hours. For example, the Oklahoma's Driver's Manual states: "You must use your headlights between 30 minutes after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise, and at other times when visibility is not normal."

The LAW is meant to profit the government and to prevent people from putting potentially dangerous crap on the market.

The law is meant to protect people from each other and from themselves. As far as "potentially dangerous crap", you are the one making it potentially dangerous by attempting to use them for a purpose for which they were not designed.

if I keep the lumens beam pattern and color "DOT LIKE" I have met the spirit of the law and am satisfied.

There is no such thing as "the spirit of the law". There is only the law as it is written.
The law is not met if the beam pattern is not compliant with FMVSS 108 requirements.

either way the subject of this thread is not the legality of safety. its HOW do I modify the optics. IE what do I have to do to get a more "spot" like beam pattern from an emitter.

It became the subject of the thread by necessity.

 

[dmk9561]

You drive the same roads that we do. I don't know your physical location, but it could be local to me for all I know. That being the case, I'm not interested in helping you perform multiple illegal modifications to a car only to make the roads that I travel on more dangerous. There's simply no way that you could approximate a legal headlight beam pattern starting with the lights you're using. You're likely to not see as well as you should and cause lots of glare to other drivers.

You're quick to criticize the Speaker LED headlights as inefficient, but they're well respected on here. They have done the research and engineering necessary to build a compliant LED headlight, and that is their result. If that's the real-world requirement necessary to make LEDs produce a proper headlight pattern consistently at many temperatures, take it as a sign that you aren't going to do it with half the electricity and some jury-rigged lights in your garage.

Road laws are meant to make sure that everyone can make orderly use of the roads. Sometimes their enforcement may seem to be profit driven, but you won't be subject to that if you aren't breaking the laws. From your descriptions of your mods and driving habits, it's clear that you couldn't care less what effect you have on other drivers, and that's both dangerous and foolish. If you're deliberately breaking multiple laws every time you drive at night, you deserve tickets for that. Don't put yourself in a position to deserve tickets. Try something else to save a few pennies.

If you really knew about engineering, you'd know that weight is very counter productive to efficiency. Carrying two deep-cycle batteries and an extra water pump is bound to make a bigger difference than you realize. Two deep-cycle batteries is like carrying another person.

 

[-Virgil-]

I am not too concerned with the law.

You need to be. Not only for your safety and that of everyone else on the road (including me), but for participation on this forum, where advocacy of illegal activity is not permitted. Eventually the moderator(s) will probably kick you back inline; until then you're not likely to get the kind of help you think you want.

if the lumens are equivalent the color is equivalent and the beam pattern are equivalent

I doubt you have the means to determine whether the lumens, color, or beam pattern are "equivalent" (whatever it is you think that might mean). Can you describe the equipment you have access to?

I don't care about the law and safety will NOT be impacted. Some may not like that but I don't care. I will worry about the safety aspect

It's not so much your safety I'm worried about; if you want to go off yourself, that's your business. It's my safety (and that of my family) I'm concerned with. You propose to endanger them with homemade headlamps that don't comply with any technical standards for safety performance, and so far you've provided no evidence you're qualified to judge whether they would comply if they were tested. That's not OK.

My Fuel Economy difference during the day (minimal load of alternator) and at night (BIG load on alternator running the 8amp headlights and probable 5-8 amps in marker lights) is over 8mpg difference.

It appears you have some difficulty with arithmetic.

the JW Speaker lamps are interesting but OUCH 3.6 amps and only 750 lumens ??? 1300 raw lumens. those lights are horrendous!

They're actually quite efficient and efficacious compared to most any other headlamp of the same form factor.

either way the subject of this thread is not the legality of safety.

It is now!

its HOW do I modify the optics

You don't.

 

[John_Galt]

with the battery? have you never driven a car with a bad alternator? it runs till the battery dies. 2 deep cycle batteries will run a geo metro a very very long time (300-500 miles to full DOD 100-250 to 50% DOD depending on upgrades and how much stuff you have turned on)

I think that's your problem right there. I would bet my front teeth you'll get better mileage with a single battery and a set of (Legal) LED/incan headlights, than with a pair of illegal, jerry-rigged unknown-quality non-legal beam pattern LED lights you bought from dx.

Upgrade your headlights with better quality incandescent units, and see if you can find reasonable output low-wattage (QUALITY) bulbs. Don't forget to upgrade the wiring and connectors, and do a relay set up for the headlights, as that will decrease resistance on the circuit and thus the load.

I would do a couple things in your position:

-Find a lower amperage alternator that will work. Lower output means less resistance, means you can actually use it, meaning you can remove the dead weight of the extra battery.
-Find a LEGAL way to convert your turn signals, marker lights, etc to LED. (I DO NOT mean find some of the cheap festoon bulbs the motorcycle crowd are so proud of. I mean legal LED based turn/marker lights.)
-Go through the wiring in the car. Remove anything that runs an accessory that you don't use. Replace all circuits that are high resistance (larger wiring will help, as will better connectors, etc.)
-I'm not familiar with the Metro, but does it use the water pump to turn the radiator fan? If so, look to the aftermarket for sufficiently sized electric units. Many I've seen draw <12-15 amps, realistically less power than an engine powered fan.

Replace the battery. There was a company I saw advertising in an offroad mag a while back that had a very small (dimensionally) and lightweight battery. They claimed it could still provide enough amps to turn over small engines, but was not for use for starting larger engines, or winching (not enough capacity). The ad claimed they weighed on the order of 20 or so pounds, IIRC.

----------
Also, modern engines are meant to use the water pump to circulate the coolant. Even if you remove the pump internals and seal up the hole, water is not going to naturally circulate in the engine, let alone with any efficiency. You are risking prematurely burning up your motor, just so you can save a few bucks at the gas pump. (And i don't believe you'll see such a dramatic improvement in any way possible that it would be worth scrapping the engine much earlier than if you let well enough alone.)

Realistically, the best way to increase an engines efficiency (and performance) is to let it breath. Putting a new, lower-resistance intake manifold in, and replacing the headers and exhaust system are going ot allow the engine to breath easier, run better, etc.

If you don't do this, and you're still stuck on (ruining) playing with your engine by removing the water pump, get some of that ceramic exhaust system wrap and wrap the headers and the exhaust tubing in the engine bay. Keeping that heat in the exhaust, and away from the engine should help keep the engine temperatures down (slightly; you're still increasing wear and tear on your engine, leading to an early death). Even if you do upgrade the intake and exhaust systems, wrap the exhaust.

---------------
At the end of the day, the things I've suggested will, IMO, get better, safer and LEGAL results than what you are currently doing.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Nerys, you've got good advise regarding your intentions to run illegal lights, and yet you defend you position. :tsk:

Thread closed.