Lithium Ion below freezing temperature performance

[jzmtl]

When I went to ski last weekend, it was -18C (0F). I had my cellphone in an outside pocket. About an hour into skiing it started low battery beep. I just charged it a day in prior, so I suspcted it's because of the cold temperature. When I went inside to take a break, the charge level indicator shows red empty. After it warmed up, I restarted it and now the charge indicator shows full charge (which was later confirmed because recharge after I got home was done quickly) .

So my question is how much is lithium ion cells affected by temperature? -18 isn't that cold (well for people in the north anyway). I have a zebralight h60 on order too which will be used outside, and if li-ion suck that much already at this temperature it's definately not good since the whole thing is exposed with no way to insulate. :duh2:

 

[Pöbel]

have been using an AW on my bike @ -19°C, no problems. Capacity seemed to stay within normal levels.

 

[VegasF6]

There have been several threads on performance at low temps, or at least I thought. But, anymore I just check what battery university has to say.

Lithium-ion works within the discharge temperature limits of -20°C to 60°C (-4°F to 140°F). The performance is temperature based, meaning that the rate capability at or below -20°C is reduced due to the increased impedance of the electrolyte. Discharging at low temperatures does not harm the battery. Lithium-ion may be used down to -30°C (-22°F) with acceptable results. Larger packs will be necessary to compensate for the reduced capacity at these temperatures.

Doesn't say just how much performance will be decreased, but the good news is you aren't doing any permanent harm to the cell apparently.

Have read a couple threads about keeping cells in the freezer and it seems the answer was don't, you would damage them, but that seems to contradict this. Most home freezers are operating somewhere between 5 and 30 farenheit, right?

This doesn't address the protection circuit, but I don't imagine that a solid state device would be harmed, unless maybe there is a mechanical change, like flexing or something?

 

[balou]

VegasF6: electrolytic capacitors have fluid in them. they could be permanently damaged if frozen (as ice usually has greater volume than fluid)

but cellphones didn't have electrolytics in them for years now - they're just to big. I dunno about the various lights though.

jzmtl: keep your light inside your clothes until you need it - the batteries have some time to cool out. and then just hope that the waste heat of the light will keep them reasonably warm. Or just rotate two batteries - use one while the other warms up.
I do this in winter when shooting with my DSLR. I keep the battery under my jacket just until I need it, then after shooting I immediately put it back. (by the way, the fact that the camera itself is cool is an advantage - most of the sensor noise is thermal, so you get lower noise in winter)

 

[ltiu]

Curious.

I know when using batteries, the thing heats up because some of the energy is lost as heat.

So then, will the process of using a battery result in the battery capacity increasing or voltage and current increase the more you use it because more heat is generated and the battery gets warmer and warmer?

This assumes the battery heats up more than is being lost to the cold air.

I would then think that if you have a flashlight that draws a lot of power from a battery, then the heat generated will result in the battery giving more power as the light is left on longer.

 

[Buck91]

I've noticed a lower capacity in various li-ion and lipo batteries both on my bike (rcr123 and 14500 li-ion) and my cell phone (li-po) when used in cold weather. These effects start becoming noticable around freezing (32F) and by the time you get down to zero are quite pronounced.

This is all empirical observation without any technical data to back it up. But I've had much better luck with quality NiMH cells holding their charge during cold weather.

 

[Therrin]

A couple weekends ago I went camping in NW Wisconsin. There was a few feet of snow on the ground and the one day it actually warmed up to -20*F (-29*C).
At night it was closer to -40*F(this program says -40*F = -40*C...wierd), on the day it only warmed up to -25*F, the windchill was -52*F.

On the day it was -25*F, I was slogging through some snow when my phone rang. After pulling it out of various layers I noticed it had 3/4 charge. After talking for about 6 minutes it went dead in the middle of the call; and I couldn't get it to start back up. I later warmed it up in my sleeping bag while I was (trying to) sleep, and then it worked fine.

That night my headlamp was running at a significantly decreased rate (running on my 1S2P custom 18650 pack with 2x2200mAh cells), but didn't die completely. High mode only draws 1amp (R5).

I had a number of ICR18650H 2200mAh cells with me, a 15.6Ah Limefuel, a ICR26650, my cell phone, and some SolarForce 2600mAh cells. At one point most of those were in my backpack, which was at the lower camp site; their heater ran out that night and everything in that location thoroughly froze solid (and the people staying there left that night). It was somewhere around -40*F/*C that night, give or take a few degrees.
The next day when it was -25*F, those of us at the upper camp site said "screw this" and hiked back out further up to the vehicles, and came back a week later for the gear we had left at the lower camp site.

I let everything thaw out slowly, as it had spent a week in some pretty bitter cold. My limefuel works just fine, as does my phone and most of my other cells.

The only problem I've noticed so far is with my ICR26650 cell (4000mAh). When I checked it later at home, it wouldn't run my SST50 on high output; and it was only showing 3V when I pulled it out and checked it, but had barely been used on the trip. After giving it several days to warm back up, I tried charging it. It was drawing a continuous high amperage for a couple hours but the voltage was still very low when I checked it. It didn't seem right so I pulled it off and it's been sitting for another week. Now it's showing 3.6V again and works fine. :duh2:

Perhaps when it deep froze at -40* it just took a lot longer for something inside to thaw out because it's a larger diameter cell? Not sure what the exact issue was.

I'm heading out to MN tomorrow for a week and will be using many of my lights extensively throughout the week. I think the high temp is supposed to be 15*F or 18*F; so I'm making some extension wires for my packs so I can keep them under my layers while my headlamp is in use on my helmet.

 

[markr6]

I always had the habit of sleeping with electronics when backpacking in the cold. Then I remembered people storing batteries in the freezer or refrigerator, so thought maybe I don't need to go thru this effort.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

-40 degrees C and -40 degrees F are equivalent.

 

[inetdog]

I always had the habit of sleeping with electronics when backpacking in the cold. Then I remembered people storing batteries in the freezer or refrigerator, so thought maybe I don't need to go thru this effort.

But they generally give them time to warm up before using them.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Curious_character]

VegasF6: electrolytic capacitors have fluid in them. they could be permanently damaged if frozen (as ice usually has greater volume than fluid)

but cellphones didn't have electrolytics in them for years now - they're just to big. I dunno about the various lights though. . .

The freezing temperature of the liquid in electrolytic capacitors and batteries is much, much lower than the freezing point of water. I've dealt with a great deal of electronic equipment rated (and tested) to storage temperatures as low as -60C which contain electrolytic capacitors of several types. And I've stored batteries in the freezer for many years without harm. Freezing of electronic components is seldom a concern.

c_c

 

[jasonck08]

@ Therrin.

Did you charge any cells below freezing? Never charge Li-ion cells below freezing, it can destroy them.

Secondly, some cells maybe have about 50% of their full capacity at around -10C, and even less at lower temperatures. Some battery electronics/circuits may have a temperature sensor that shut off your phone for example.

 

[Lampbeam]

I used to take pictures in the cold in Kansas. I put my camera in a bag afterwards when I brought it into the house to keep condensation from getting into it. I don't think this would hurt a flashlight but it might be something to consider with a cell phone. I think a cell phone should be kept in the pocket of an inner layer of clothing to help keep it warm.

 

[Therrin]

I used to take pictures in the cold in Kansas. I put my camera in a bag afterwards when I brought it into the house to keep condensation from getting into it. I don't think this would hurt a flashlight but it might be something to consider with a cell phone. I think a cell phone should be kept in the pocket of an inner layer of clothing to help keep it warm.

The bag thing is so that the condensation forms INSIDE the bag, not on the camera. Most of the good cameras that people do this with are *somewhat* weather sealed, or have their charging ports up on the side of the body somewhere. If you were to try this with a phone, the phone would sit flat in the bottom of the bag, and condensation could dribble down the sides of the bag and ?possibly? make their way into a charge port?

I'd be more inclined to bed it in some rice in a bag while doing this....

You keep your cell phone deep under your layers when moving about, yeah. While *using* it... hard to do the same

@ Therrin.

Did you charge any cells below freezing? Never charge Li-ion cells below freezing, it can destroy them.

Secondly, some cells maybe have about 50% of their full capacity at around -10C, and even less at lower temperatures. Some battery electronics/circuits may have a temperature sensor that shut off your phone for example.

Well, I didn't charge any of my round LiXx cells out there, so that wasn't an issue. I just went to use that 26650 cell while I was out there, and it wouldn't work. (works now)
I *did* use my Limefuel to charge my phone several times, but that was usually in-doors w/heater or in my sleeping bag. After my phone froze I thawed it in my sleeping bag (erm... between my thighs actually ), before recharging it the next day.


Strangely enough, I have a new issue now....
I recently went on ANOTHER outdoor foray in Minnesota, out in the Fergus Falls area, and once again it was ~ -25*F while I was romping around outdoors. (I seem to have found a knack for finding the crappiest temps and then going outdoors to do things in them )

My SolarForce L2p w/ Thrunite XML dropin just up and died when I went to use it. Swapped 3 different 18650's in and out of it...no bueno.

Brought it home and rang out the switch, works fine...
Tested all the batteries, all fine...
Hooked up my external power supply and fed 4.2V to the dropin itself, no bueno...
Pulled the reflector off and lifted the insulator around the emitter; carefully, briefly touched the + and - pads and FLASH!!!!! ... blinded myself. :duh2: Score!

So I guess my driver died??? It had worked fine the day before, then temps dropped again and I went to use it that morning and just didn't work. I've had that dropin for about 3 years and never had any trouble with it at all. Windchill was somewhere in the -50*F's again that morning.
The cold is the ONLY thing I can attribute to that driver just up and dying on me. Unless, it just chose that moment to wear out??

I'm working on disassembling the driver pillar to play Mortuary Tech on it, but I gotta go get some wicking braid tomorrow to get the pillar partition board out; then maybe I can figure out what failed.

 

[HKJ]

The bag thing is so that the condensation forms INSIDE the bag, not on the camera.

Not inside the bag, but on the outside of the bag.

A explanation: Warm air usual contains more water than cold air. When the warm air hits something cold it will be cooled down and the water is left on the cold stuff.
By leaving the camera in a closed bag, you keep the warm air away while the camera is warmed up.

I have left out anything about humidity (%RH) and dewpoint from the above, but that is what leads to condensation.

 

[Therrin]

Now I'm just all kinds of confused. My g/f does this with her Canon D5 MkII and winds up with condensation inside the bag. I thought that was always what happened.... *scratches head*

Have you ever heard of cold temps killing driver boards or dropins??

 

[HKJ]

Now I'm just all kinds of confused. My g/f does this with her Canon D5 MkII and winds up with condensation inside the bag. I thought that was always what happened.... *scratches head*

Sounds like see is doing it the wrong way. The bag and the air in the bag must be cold when the camera is put in and the bag sealed.
Then the bag must not be opened before the camera is warm.

Have you ever heard of cold temps killing driver boards or dropins??

No, electronic usual works fine in cold temperatures (Except LCD displays), but condensation can kill it.

 

[Therrin]

Thanks, I'll make sure she does it that way for sure next time!

I hadn't considered condensation inside the light, perhaps that was it. I'll try to figure out what fried when I get it apart and post back.

 

[HKJ]

I hadn't considered condensation inside the light, perhaps that was it. I'll try to figure out what fried when I get it apart and post back.

I forgot one thing: Large temperature changes, it can crack solder joints or other stuff due to differences in thermal expansion

 

[markr6]

So I guess my driver died??? It had worked fine the day before, then temps dropped again and I went to use it that morning and just didn't work. I've had that dropin for about 3 years and never had any trouble with it at all. Windchill was somewhere in the -50*F's again that morning.
The cold is the ONLY thing I can attribute to that driver just up and dying on me. Unless, it just chose that moment to wear out??

I've been noticing in the cold that the burst mode on my two PD32UEs isn't any brighter than the mode below. I alwasy figured it was the batteries. So I took some 18650s from indoors and put them in a cold light. Still no go! So I guess it's something to do with the driver or LED itself. Once it warms up everything is OK.