Maha C-204w confusion

[Marc999]

Hi guys,

First post, hopefully this is a suitable topic here.

I have the Mh-C204w. I've been using it for about 5 months without any issues. Having said that, I really don't know what state the batteries are in since there's no lcd readout.

Maha claims that this product doesn't over/undercharge batteries and that it will charge up to 95% full capacity; 98-99% if left on the charger, as it enters trickle mode for a couple extra hours. It's specs. indicate some sexy newer algorithm used to charge the batteries. Also has a reconditioning feature. Ok, sounds great. Yet this charger has 2 independent channels, rather than 4 which after reading up on various posts seems to be a very important feature.

Will 1 or more batteries over time actually not reach it's full capacity, since the circuit is switched to maintenance charge once a channel reads 1 of the 2 batteries [in that channel] as being charged? Hope this makes sense.

I always charge 4 batteries at a time: either sanyo eneloops, rayovac hybrids or powerex 2,700. If the batteries need charging, I'll plop 4 in and leave them overnight.

I do have a ZTS Battery Tester, although it wasn't the smartest purchase since the readings are: 0,20,40,60,80,100% capacity. I'm still liable to mismatch batteries I suppose. Fun device although not as exact as would be ideal I guess.

Am I fine with this charger and will it indeed not over/undercharge batteries?

I have my eyes on the Lacross BC-900 [version 35], although I don't want to make a rash decision, if the mh-204w is doing it's job as advertised.
Any thoughts?

thanks in advance,
Marc

 

[VidPro]

IF it charges in pairs in series, its not just that you put them on in pairs and in quads, but that you try and use that pair or quad together, in your devices.
which is a pain in the butt, but possible, you just use a sharpee and put hashmarks on sets (for example) the ones with 2 hashmarks are set 2.
obviously there are much more complicated ways to mark batteries, but a line all the way around it, can be seen easily from all angles, and done easily

a good series charger can fully charge each battery , by slowly "overcharging within spec". most of the series chargers i have used will fully charge both batteries eventually, if left to completly top them off fully. as long as they arent WAY different from eachother, like one mostly discharged and one mostly full.

uhh overcharging within spec isnt overcharging, just to make it clear, the topping off to balance the series set is still an overcharge, but it dont hurt nothin.

the ZTS cant tell you much, but it can tell you enough to tell which batteries are full or discharged i mean , its something and its close enough for to do what you wanna do without forking over more funds. what you got now is completly capable of doing what you need to do, without worrying about what you dont

if you needed to advance in the realm of being handcuffed to a blasted computer that tells you stuff you dont need to know so you can worry about stuff that you never knew, then you will know

stuff like the becomes much more important if your doing HUGE loads with the batts, as you can easily see that any PRO photographer Must have perfect batts, and RC people are up 500 feet in the air , and LEs butts are on the line, and Hotwires will tear through batteries, so you pretty much know if your not a "casual" user, and need a bunch of computerised stuff.

Just gabbin.

 

[VidPro]

if it is a series charger and it requires 2 and it uses the 3V to try and charge a series set, there is ways to get out of that setup, for about $30 , i dont even know why they still sell series when they CAN do things singuarly and the cost of the tecnology has gone way down.

there are some really nice 8 and 10 battery chargers for AA and AAA only, that are single channel for $30 in both slow and faster charge. if you want a good C-D single charger , they are not so cheap.

the computerised ones DO have a default that you can just drop stuff in and not have to read a 40 page manuel to use them, but you really should read the 40 page manual and set things appropriatly anyways, and it never ends there is so much you begin to know from the info they show, and the never ending array of ways you can set it. there is so much you should know, to set them.

the 900 la cross thing is single channel, will fast charge slow charge discharge, and allow you to CHECK your battery for how well it is doing. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=70935

if a consumer gains the most advantage it is at the "trash can" they do so, by discovering the battery or batteries that are no longer usefull, everything else is a bunch of junk we shouldnt have to know or deal with, but then get to.

the 9000 , has some advantages over the 900 , and after all its newer, and they applied things learned to the newer things, its more money and even bigger pain in the butt for to deal with, and would be a good or better choice. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=191921

 

[VidPro]

soo, when you ask the question, is what i have good enough, yes it usually is and it will usually get you by, and the costs of destroying your batteries in a series fast charger , is relative to the costs of a smarter charger, but can be solved with a medium speed charger that will singularly charge and also do a singular discharge for conditioning.

and if you want to get a charger that tells you everything, its not the money , its just the time i find that a good 8x or 10X single channel charger gets a whole lot more done a whole lot easier.

there is any range and level you want to go to, and most all of them charge batteries so you can use batteries, and if they didnt, you would be asking us what to replace, the one you just threw in the trash instead

 

[Marc999]

Thanks for the info. VidPro.

I've read some more threads regarding my mh-c204w, charging @ 2,000 mah. Even administrators over at Maha forums state that the life of the batteries will be reduced by it's high charge rate. I'm using lsd cells mostly: eneloop and rayovac aa/aaa. I'm not sure how much of the batteries life will be reduced, or if it's trivial considering i'm a 'casual' user of digital cameras and my handheld gps unit.

The Mh-c9000 appears to be just 10 bucks more than the lacross bc-900 over at thomas distributing. Although it seems trickier to navigate through the menus, I'm sure it's easy enough to get the hang of.
Alot of people on various forums seem to agree that the meltdown issues of the bc-900 have subsided in later versions, yet they've experiend less than desirable customer support from Lacrosse...never a good sign.

I guess it's up to me to decide whether my 'casual' use, i.e. charging batteries once/week warrants purchasing a smarter charger v.s. knocking off a few yrs. lifespan of the eneloops, by continuing to use the c204w.

 

[Mr Happy]

Based on available information, you may expect to get about 200 full charge/discharge cycles on an AA eneloop being charged at 2000 mA before you start to notice a drop in capacity. So if you do one cycle a week you will get about four years use from a set. That seems pretty economical by most reckonings.

 

[Marc999]

Thanks Mr.Happy. I just took a look at the instructions of the c-204w. Rapid Charge Current: 2.0A [2 AA], 1.0A [4AA]. I usually drop in 4 batts. at a time, so I guess each channel drops to 1,000 mah, or 0.5c of eneloop? I suppose inserting 4 at a time is the way to go to. Unless i'm misunderstanding how the channel currents operate. Does the charge current go back up to 2,000 mah once one channel is complete? Bah...either way, looks like i'll get good lifespan out those eneloops.

 

[bcwang]

Nope, the charge current stays at 1000mah as long as 4 AA cells are in there no matter if one bank finished or not. You can actually tell the charge current by the sound of the charger. It only charges with 2 amp pulses, and when one bank is used, all pulses go to that one bank. When both banks are used, it is alternating banks which is why it is 1 amp rate with 4 batteries. In the ramp up, 2hr top off, and trickle modes, you can hear the pulses are much shorter and with more time in between them. Based on the sound, you can tell which of the 4 modes the charger is in.

Search around the forum, I had a post with some interesting observations about the 204w.

 

[Marc999]

Thanks bcwang. I looked up your posts under advanced search. You did a lot of testing on the 204w. So to sum up, with 4 batts. it charges @ 1.0A. Then tops up @ 160 ma for 2 hrs., then trickle @ 50 ma, resulting in a darn near 98-99% capacity. Sounds good to me. I've labelled the batteries in pairs to help with matching usage in my cameras/gps. I use the eneloops so 1.0A rate sounds in line with the recommendation of 0.5c - 1.0c. Now, when/if a battery goes wonky, I won't know which one...well I guess my ZTS tester will help.

Yet for discharging/conditioning feature, I imagine this is where problems could occur with the 2 channels.

Having said that, I just ordered the c9000 from thomas-distr. More for interest sake and fun factor. If the c9000 causes a fuss with older batteries, I could likely use the 204w to give them a kick in the pants. I'm finally starting to have a basic understanding of the battery/charger lingo here. Good fun.

cheers,
Marc

 

[Hoggy]

Having said that, I just ordered the c9000 from thomas-distr. More for interest sake and fun factor. If the c9000 causes a fuss with older batteries, I could likely use the 204w to give them a kick in the pants. I'm finally starting to have a basic understanding of the battery/charger lingo here.
Marc

You definitely wont be disappointed!
Getting the C9000 was one of the best purchases I ever made - as well as the BC-900 I got more recently. :twothumbs

I still find it to be amazing how much longer my runtimes in various devices are by simply matching the capacity of batteries. Whereas before, in my universal remote, I was sometimes starting to get 2-3 weeks runtime - I'm now closing in on the 2 month mark! With some measly old 700mah AAA NiMH that are matched in capacity to around 450mah (within 6%).
I tested them in my RS22-091 tester(40ma load, IIRC) the other day and they all still show as completely full. :huh:
When (or IF) they ever run dry, I intend to put a really old set of 4 550mah rated NiMH AAA's that are now revived and matched within 1% at around 480mah to see how long they last.
And here I was getting ready to recycle them!

Be cautious though - you'll feel a battery addiction coming on.
:tinfoil:

 

[Beacon of Light]

Does the 9000 require you to do a test charge/discharge cycle to determine the capacity of the battery? I have the La Crosse BC900 and one of the reasons I don't really use the test feature is it will take a charged battery, discharge it, then charge it, and then find the capacity. That to me is wasting electricity, as well as prematurely wasting the cell lifespan by 2 extra charging cycles (1 discharge cycle). If I am wrong please let me know as I am on the fence whether a 9000 is necessary if I already have the LaCrosse.

You definitely wont be disappointed!
Getting the C9000 was one of the best purchases I ever made - as well as the BC-900 I got more recently. :twothumbs

I still find it to be amazing how much longer my runtimes in various devices are by simply matching the capacity of batteries. Whereas before, in my universal remote, I was sometimes starting to get 2-3 weeks runtime - I'm now closing in on the 2 month mark! With some measly old 700mah AAA NiMH that are matched in capacity to around 450mah (within 6%).
I tested them in my RS22-091 tester(40ma load, IIRC) the other day and they all still show as completely full. :huh:
When (or IF) they ever run dry, I intend to put a really old set of 4 550mah rated NiMH AAA's that are now revived and matched within 1% at around 480mah to see how long they last.
And here I was getting ready to recycle them!

Be cautious though - you'll feel a battery addiction coming on.
:tinfoil:

 

[Mr Happy]

Does the 9000 require you to do a test charge/discharge cycle to determine the capacity of the battery? I have the La Crosse BC900 and one of the reasons I don't really use the test feature is it will take a charged battery, discharge it, then charge it, and then find the capacity. That to me is wasting electricity, as well as prematurely wasting the cell lifespan by 2 extra charging cycles (1 discharge cycle). If I am wrong please let me know as I am on the fence whether a 9000 is necessary if I already have the LaCrosse.

What would you want the C9000 to do instead? If you let us know we can tell you if the C9000 can do what you want.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Beacon of Light,

The C9000 can be set to simply discharge a cell and tell you the amount of capacity that was in the cell. However, you end up with a discharged cell that you will have to charge back up before using it.

Tom

 

[TakeTheActive]

...wasting the cell lifespan by 2 extra charging cycles (1 discharge cycle)...

1. How many cycles do you need to get from your rechargeable batteries?
2. How many cycles are you currently getting?
3. How often do you recharge a specific cell?
4. What Charge Rate do you use?

Look at SilverFox's Sig Line - most folks never get near the possible number of cycles available.

...I have the La Crosse BC900 and one of the reasons I don't really use the test feature is it will take a charged battery, discharge it, then charge it, and then find the capacity. That to me is wasting electricity...

How else would you propose to measure the capacity?

 

[Beacon of Light]

1. How many cycles do you need to get from your rechargeable batteries?
2. How many cycles are you currently getting?
3. How often do you recharge a specific cell?
4. What Charge Rate do you use?

1) at least 1000 as is expected.
2) I have no idea as I don't count between charges.
3) Whenever it fails to work in a high drain device I will tend to drain it further in a LED flashlight. Once it no longer provides bridght enough light to use I take it out and set it aside to be charged only when I plan on using that battery.
4) Since I have the Lacross I tend to use 200 mAh to charge to keep it cool.

Look at SilverFox's Sig Line - most folks never get near the possible number of cycles available.


How else would you propose to measure the capacity?

I was hoping by now there would be a simple meter that can test the battery like my old Micronta battery tester from 1983. I'm sure the technology exists. I just find it wastefully to have to discharge a battery instead of using that energy, JUST to test the capacity of a cell. Am I wrong in thinking this?

I still have and use old NiCad cells Eveready 9V and AA's circa 1991 that I still use regularly. IIRC NiCads are only supposed to get 500 charge cycles and I think I have surpassed that even knowing from 1991-2000 they were being charged on a dumb charger. Comparing that to rarely used Nexcell AAAs and AAs from 2001 that stopped working in 2002 makes me wonder why the Nicads outlived the newly but rarely used NiMh Nexcells./ Sorry for the long answer but due to my experience with almost 20 year old Nicads, I would basically expect NiMh batteries to last longer than Nicads at least.

 

[Hoggy]

I was hoping by now there would be a simple meter that can test the battery like my old Micronta battery tester from 1983. I'm sure the technology exists. I just find it wastefully to have to discharge a battery instead of using that energy, JUST to test the capacity of a cell. Am I wrong in thinking this?

You're not wrong in thinking it wasteful to discharge a cell to find it's capacity. On the other hand, it's not something I'm going to do all the time, every time I charge a battery. I'm only doing it once in a great while to find out if batteries in a set are still matched.

I wish there was another way, but I don't really think there is.
What would be really cool is if one is charging a battery at the same time as doing a discharge - that the discharging battery's energy could be used to charge the other one(or at least supplement the energy being used by the charger). Now THAT would be neat!

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Beacon of Light,

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but...

Your expectations are totally wrong.

NiMh chemistry offers higher capacity, higher voltage under load, and less problems with voltage depression at the expense of cycle life. If you don't need these "features," stick with NiCd cells.

I would also be interested in having you tests some of those old NiCd cells. It may be that they are actually "crap" cells, but still hold a little bit of a charge. The definition of a crap cell is one that provides less than 80% of its initial capacity under a 0.5 amp load.

On the other hand, I also have some NiCd cells that are about that old and they are right at the edge of being crap, so your cells may be OK.

Tom

 

[Marc999]

You definitely wont be disappointed!
Getting the C9000 was one of the best purchases I ever made - as well as the BC-900 I got more recently. :twothumbs

Thanks. I think I made the right choice with Thomas Dist. as well, for the vendor. The last time I ordered from them, they accidentally sent a pack of AAA eneloops, instead of AA that I asked for. No problem, they shipped the AA eneloops to me and let me keep the AAA. Now that's service and a half.
I hunted various Canadian online vendors such as paulsfinest out of Quebec and ephobbies out of British Columbia. Their shipping/return policies just blow chunks, in comparison to Thomas dist. Paulsfinest was 7 day return policy, Ephobbies was 30 day, yet the product must not have been used/open, and return for store credit only....alrighty then. I'm looking forward to interrogating my batteries when the c9000 comes knocking on my door.

Marc

 

[Beacon of Light]

You're not wrong in thinking it wasteful to discharge a cell to find it's capacity. On the other hand, it's not something I'm going to do all the time, every time I charge a battery. I'm only doing it once in a great while to find out if batteries in a set are still matched.

I wish there was another way, but I don't really think there is.
What would be really cool is if one is charging a battery at the same time as doing a discharge - that the discharging battery's energy could be used to charge the other one(or at least supplement the energy being used by the charger). Now THAT would be neat!

right Higgy, I am surprised with all the knowledge here, that isn't a current workable idea. As one battery is discharged that energy is used to charge the other battery. That is efficient energy transfer, and in 2009 I would think we'd be at a point now, that it would be a reality. I'm guessing it will be 2015 before we find chargers this innovative....

 

[Beacon of Light]

I guess we both have different definitions of what constitutes a "crap cell" as you call it. 80% to me is barely half it's lifespan. I might suggest you switch back to alkalines if you are throwing away 30-50 NiMh batteries a year unless you are a product tester for Energizer NiMh cells. Then I could understand as these are generally "crap" right out of the package. Are yoiu one of those types that will throw away a food item that has an expiration date the same date as the current day?

Hello Beacon of Light,

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but...

Your expectations are totally wrong.

NiMh chemistry offers higher capacity, higher voltage under load, and less problems with voltage depression at the expense of cycle life. If you don't need these "features," stick with NiCd cells.

I would also be interested in having you tests some of those old NiCd cells. It may be that they are actually "crap" cells, but still hold a little bit of a charge. The definition of a crap cell is one that provides less than 80% of its initial capacity under a 0.5 amp load.

On the other hand, I also have some NiCd cells that are about that old and they are right at the edge of being crap, so your cells may be OK.

Tom