Many questions about HDS and NovaTac... please help (extensive answers wanted)

[FliGuyRyan]

Alright fellow light lovers... I have a few questions with many answers wanted.

My first question is what is the history and now the current situation between HDS and NovaTac? They seem to be the same light, but two different companies... please, please, please expand on all you know about them past and present including: are their parts interchangeable, does one make a better light, are they the same company, do they both still sell lights, and is the UI the same?

Also... I couldn't seem to get this question answered in other threads but, why does the runtime in the NovaTac seem so low compared to that of a Cree LED? And... are HDS or NovaTacs offered in a Cree or only the Seoul SSC P4 (I think that's the current offering right?)?

Last, but not least, what accessories are there offered for the HDS and NovaTac lines? This would include accessories of other brands that happen to work with them such as Surefire filters working... is this true? And other accessories of that nature including body tube extenders (for two CR123 batteries - kinda like the P2D, L1D, and L2D from Fenix all being able to work with one another) for more output...

I know this is a lot of information to ask for, but I'm REALLY interested in a NovaTac-like light. I just need to make sure all the stars are aligned before buying one. How does it compare in lumens and runtime to a Fenix P2D CE. I know the build is better with the NovaTac, but I'm really interested in how long it's going to last. And again, can you get an extender tube for two batteries instead of one for longer runtime?

Thanks again...
Ryan

 

[Oddjob]

First I want to say that I am going from memory and so I assume that I will be corrected on many things here but the jist of what I write should be fairly accurate.

HDS was bought by Novatac. Henry (who founded HDS) left Novatac but Novatac retained rights to the HDS design so their line of lights are really a slightly improved version of the HDS EDC (specifically, the user interface has been improved to make the options menu and ramping brightness more easliy accessible). The user manual is still something like 15 pages long. Henry no longer has an affiliation with Novatac and is currently designing a new light.

Early reports show that some of their parts are interchangeable. Tail caps, bezels, and lenses can be switched but the reflector cannot. People have said that the build quality between the two is very similar if not the same. As to which one is better remains to be seen. Certainly the Novatac's UI makes accessing the options menu and changing brightness easier than on the HDS lights. The UI's are not the same but in terms of features and functions there are many things that are the same.

Certainly an issue with both the HDS and the Novatac's is the pocket clip. The clip that came with the HDS was not well liked and prompted many to install their own clips such as the popular Arc4+ style clip. The new Novatac clip has garnered an equally negative response from many due to the way it looks, the way it mounts on the light and its overall effectiveness.

The stated runtimes seems short because the runtime is measured from when the light is turned to when it drops to the next light level the battery can handle. The light automatically steps down to preserve battery life. There is no CREE Novatac and all the modded HDS's I have seen are done with SSC's.

The Surefire F04 beam diffuser fits the HDS and since the bezels are interchangeable I assume it would fit the Novatac. I do not know of other diffusers or filters that would fit. There are 2xCR123, 18650 and even 2AA tubes out there for the HDS although they are very hard to come by. According to some posts some of these tubes fit the Novatacs as well but keep in mind that the Novatac can only support up to 4.2V. I read somewhere that the Novatac was not quite as bright as the P2D.

There was an HDS light that was pummeled by being thrown against a concrete wall over 200 times and still worked that people use as a testament to HDS's durability. The Novatacs should be at least as durable due to similar design. Buying one is not too big a risk because you should be able to recoup your money if you decide to sell it. I have an HDS and I am still waiting for my Novatac to arrive. IMO the HDS is a fine light and I am sure I will be equally pleased with the Novatac.

Alright fellow light lovers... I have a few questions with many answers wanted.

My first question is what is the history and now the current situation between HDS and NovaTac? They seem to be the same light, but two different companies... please, please, please expand on all you know about them past and present including: are their parts interchangeable, does one make a better light, are they the same company, do they both still sell lights, and is the UI the same?

Also... I couldn't seem to get this question answered in other threads but, why does the runtime in the NovaTac seem so low compared to that of a Cree LED? And... are HDS or NovaTacs offered in a Cree or only the Seoul SSC P4 (I think that's the current offering right?)?

Last, but not least, what accessories are there offered for the HDS and NovaTac lines? This would include accessories of other brands that happen to work with them such as Surefire filters working... is this true? And other accessories of that nature including body tube extenders (for two CR123 batteries - kinda like the P2D, L1D, and L2D from Fenix all being able to work with one another) for more output...

I know this is a lot of information to ask for, but I'm REALLY interested in a NovaTac-like light. I just need to make sure all the stars are aligned before buying one. How does it compare in lumens and runtime to a Fenix P2D CE. I know the build is better with the NovaTac, but I'm really interested in how long it's going to last. And again, can you get an extender tube for two batteries instead of one for longer runtime?

Thanks again...
Ryan

 

[half-watt]

There are 2xCR123, 18650 and even 2AA tubes out there for the HDS although they are very hard to come by.

that is good news (other than the hard to come by part).

so, you are saying that the Novatac EDC 120P can handle 2xCR123a? this is ~6.5VDC or a tenth or two more, depending upon the cells - i've measured a pair of PRIMARIES at around 3.34-3.35 VDC each? since i don't measure a lot of FRESH primaries, i can't really say if this is typical. generally, i've read nominally ~3.25VDC each for a fresh Li Primary CR123A.

i don't doubt what you're saying as, other than using the 120P for a fews days now, i have no knowledge of the the electronics used in the the 120P.

many thanks for sharing your knowledge. i, for one, found it quite helpful.

 

[Oddjob]

Half-watt, thanks for reminding me. I forgot to mention that although there is a 2x123 tube that fits, the Novatacs cannot take the voltage of 2 CR123's. The Novatac can only handle up to 4.2V.

 

[half-watt]

Half-watt, thanks for reminding me. I forgot to mention that although there is a 2x123 tube that fits, the Novatacs cannot take the voltage of 2 CR123's. The Novatac can only handle up to 4.2V.

many thanks for the swift reply and reminding me of the +4.2VDC max input voltage rating on the electronics.

 

[FliGuyRyan]

Oddjob,

Thank you so much for the information. It was VERY informative and I appreciate the fast response.

If NovaTac were to use the Cree, I would definitely buy one in a heart-beat and I'm going to email them to suggest them building a flashlight capable of an extender tube and maybe their own filters and diffusers.

That would be the perfect light for me... although, it's already near that.

Thanks again!
Ryan

 

[FliGuyRyan]

Anybody else... feel free to chime in at anytime. I know 150 people have looked at this so far, and only two or three have responded. Something isn't right about this ratio.

Regards,
Ryan

 

[cave dave]

FliGuyRyan,
Search Feature is your friend!

No real advantage to using the Cree. The efficiencies are about the same. The cree beam would be worse though.

Novatac will use a LiIon Rechargable RCR123 perfectly. Something the Fenix P2D will not do. If you do the research you will find that Fenix doesn't often come up to its claims on output and runtimes.

Here is the runtimes for P1D thanks to chevrofreak:
Fenix P2D - max - Energizer E2 CR123a: 1534 (est 109.57 lumens)

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=163405

 

[yaesumofo]

Just about all of your questions could be answered if you did a minimum amount of research.
That said...You say that you are looking for a "Novatac like" flashlight.
Maybe your best bet will be to go to a HDS EDC modded with a Seoul emitter on the secondary market. There have been many have sold as HDS users receive their NovaTacs. The NOVATAC had both a next gen emitter and a much improved User interface. I own both and can say that the NOVATAC is a first rate hunk of aluminum.
As has been noted elsewhere the clip design still needs work. Funny thing about the clip is that CPF users are very very choosy about their clips. I should know I have a bag with no less that 15 various clips which have been removed from lights. One mans perfect clip is another mans worst.
For now I have decided to carry mine in a concealco Holster which are about as good as the come. I do not see myself drilling and taping precision holes for mounting a clip or attachment point. IIMHO I would say that NOVATACS decision to NOT drill those holes and provide a clip which attaches under the bezel may be interim solution as they continue to explorer their options and receive volumes of feedback from end users.
we will see what happens in the future.

If you think you may not like the novatac offering then do not buy it. If you do purchase one and do not like I doubt that you will have a difficult time selling it on the secondary market. There has been brisk sales of both HDS and NOvatac lights on the secondary market recently.

Since most of these issues are subjective your best option may be to buy a light and see for your self. There is nothing like first hand experience.
yaesumofo

Alright fellow light lovers... I have a few questions with many answers wanted.

My first question is what is the history and now the current situation between HDS and NovaTac? They seem to be the same light, but two different companies... please, please, please expand on all you know about them past and present including: are their parts interchangeable, does one make a better light, are they the same company, do they both still sell lights, and is the UI the same?

Also... I couldn't seem to get this question answered in other threads but, why does the runtime in the NovaTac seem so low compared to that of a Cree LED? And... are HDS or NovaTacs offered in a Cree or only the Seoul SSC P4 (I think that's the current offering right?)?

Last, but not least, what accessories are there offered for the HDS and NovaTac lines? This would include accessories of other brands that happen to work with them such as Surefire filters working... is this true? And other accessories of that nature including body tube extenders (for two CR123 batteries - kinda like the P2D, L1D, and L2D from Fenix all being able to work with one another) for more output...

I know this is a lot of information to ask for, but I'm REALLY interested in a NovaTac-like light. I just need to make sure all the stars are aligned before buying one. How does it compare in lumens and runtime to a Fenix P2D CE. I know the build is better with the NovaTac, but I'm really interested in how long it's going to last. And again, can you get an extender tube for two batteries instead of one for longer runtime?

Thanks again...
Ryan

 

[BSCOTT1504]

Cave dave is correct! Cree's are not necessarily the last word in LED's. I have some Lux lights that I prefer over some of my Crees. There is a lot more to a good beam than just lumens! I think you would really like one of the Novatac's. Just got mine a couple days ago and I love it! :thumbsup:

 

[mightysparrow]

"Anybody else... feel free to chime in at anytime. I know 150 people have looked at this so far, and only two or three have responded. Something isn't right about this ratio."
--------------------------------

The reason more people haven't responded to your question could be that customary etiquette at CPF obliges people to first do the best search possible in the archived threads for the answers to their questions, before posting a new thread with those questions. People here are often irritated at answering questions that have recently been answered for others already. There is a lot of information containing the answers to your questions already posted in the archived threads. You can use the Google Search window at the top of the page to search CPF threads.

In answer to your questions about the lights, I can only say that I received my Novatac 120 P's today, and my initial impressions are very positive. I have no reason to believe that the build quality is substantially below that of the previous EDC lights. The user interface appears more useful for me than the older models. I don't have an opinion about whether the plastic lens will wear less or affect light output significantly more than the glass lenses in the previous versions, but I doubt I'll notice the difference anyway. These Novatac lights cost retail purchasers about half of what the earlier models cost.

If the new lights hold up well, I'll keep them indefinitely- even though they would have a superb resale value. They seem to me to have the best combination of versatility, toughness and value out there, for those who can use the features they have. As long as we can get replacement o-rings and repairs, Novatac should sell a lot of them to consumers and flashlight fans, in addition to their military sales. :thumbsup:

 

[yaesumofo]

I agree with the idea that cree is not the last word in emitters.
I have a number of flashlights which use LUX III emitters. Several of those still out perform cree and seoul emitters in terms of sheer output.
Where the new emitters excel is in their efficiency enabling lights to be made that run longer while putting out the same of more light than their Luxeon counterparts.
I beleiver that the revolution and chaos we have wittnessed over the past 12-18 months is just the beginning. Emitter technology will definatly improve in terms of color tempature, lumen per watt, and overall output.
We have basically seen emitters become much more efficient. I will enjoy the show as we see these numbers become better and better.
It is a great time for led technology!!

I have no doubt the companies like Novatec, SureFire and others will definatly take advantage these advances in emitter technology.
Yaesumofo

Cave dave is correct! Cree's are not necessarily the last word in LED's. I have some Lux lights that I prefer over some of my Crees. There is a lot more to a good beam than just lumens! I think you would really like one of the Novatac's. Just got mine a couple days ago and I love it! :thumbsup:

 

[FliGuyRyan]

First off, thank you for your informative responses...

Secondly, I know full well what the "search" function is and use it quite often. I used it before starting this thread, but if you notice how many threads I would have had to search for ALL the info that was put out on this. Why do you think so many people have looked at this thread. Maybe if a few CPF members would start broader questions, and then work their way down as I did, we wouldn't have to start a brand new thread to answer what the last thread left unanswered (any many of them do as people get off-topic). I would dare to guess that all the people who have found this thread helpful would thank me for starting it.

Finally, I will probably wait for NovaTac's next latest-and-greatest before plunging into the brand. Seems they need just a few tweeks to be "tweeked" like the click and maybe a new emitter (my P2D CE will do it for now).

Thanks again guys... helpful as always!
Ryan

 

[Kid9P]

Finally, I will probably wait for NovaTac's next latest-and-greatest before plunging into the brand. Seems they need just a few tweeks to be "tweeked"

Ryan

I agree with this comment 100%
My first Novatac 120P arrived with lube on the reflector and on the actual
emmiter

Lighthound was nice enough to ship me a replacement. When that one arrived, the lube on the reflector was worse. The emmiter was clean but it was totally off center.

I ended up keeping the original, but had to carefully clean it up.
It seems that these lights were rushed and no quality control was in
place.

I really look forward to Henry's future HDS lights....no more Novatac for me. At 150.00 dollars, these builds should be clean:scowl:

 

[cave dave]

Kid,
The emitter is centered, it's in a machined pocket . It's the reflector thats not. You can fix this yourself in a few minutes of trail and error. It's a bit of an exercise in frustration because as soon as you think you've got it perfect you tighten the bezel and it shifts out of place.

Now, Novatac could redesign the reflector so its forced in a particular place, but then if it was out of wack (and a small % would be) there would be nothing you could do about it.

Which would you prefer?

It seems that these lights were rushed and no quality control was in
place...

I haven't heard of any DOA's yet so I think that's a bit of an overstatement, but I understand your frustration. I had a surefire U2 fail in the first 2 hrs of ownership. 3 months to get it back from CS. Because of my experience I now do not own a single surefire and will not pre-order one (look at the L1 fiasco).

 

[Kid9P]

Kid,

Now, Novatac could redesign the reflector so its forced in a particular place, but then if it was out of wack (and a small % would be) there would be nothing you could do about it.

Which would you prefer?

I'd prefer getting a reflector that had no lube on it whatsoever.
Both lights I received were sealed, yet had this problem.That's just sloppiness on Novatacs part.

Yes, I was frustrated....but wanting a clean reflector on a 150 dollar
light isn't alot to ask for.

 

[waynejitsu]

Let NovaTac know about it..., I know I will be on Monday as my reflector is 1/2 good and the other side is a mess.
It is a LOT more noticeable when the light is on-

SALES AND SUPPORT
NovaTac, Inc.
2302 E. Speedway Blvd. Suite 211
Tucson, AZ 85719
[email protected]
[email protected]
520 881-5800
toll free
877 437-7978


CORPORATE OFFICES
NovaTac, Inc.
300 Carlsbad Village Drive, Suite 108A-100
Carlsbad, CA 92008
760 730-7370

 

[cave dave]

I'd prefer getting a reflector that had no lube on it whatsoever.
Both lights I received were sealed, yet had this problem.That's just sloppiness on Novatac's part.
Yes, I was frustrated....but wanting a clean reflector on a 150 dollar
light isn't a lot to ask for.

No argument there, 150 lights should come with lube on the o-rings and not the reflectors. My o-rings were dry.

My post was only concerned with the centering thing which plagues the industry all the way back to the original ARC AAA days. I think it is much much more difficult then anybody realizes. Ask McGizmo or Gransee, they both have written about it.

 

[Kid9P]

I sent Novatac an email yesterday regarding the messy reflectors.
Just wanted to make them aware of this issue.

 

[matrixshaman]

That just seems odd that there is lube on the reflectors. I don't see any on the one I have - just the light stippling or light OP. But I guess there were a lot of impatient people waiting a long time for these lights and maybe someone felt that pressure and was burning the midnight oil to get the final assembly done. So that was not really lube on the reflectors - just some midnight oil. :laughing:
Actually very sorry to hear yours wasn't perfect as I know it's been a long wait and all. Did it effect the beam pattern any?