Frame57
Newly Enlightened
Here's an article on miniature nuclear batteries from the ieee spectrum magizine. Imagine a flashlight that would run forever without recharging.
Jim Skinner
Jim Skinner
Miniature Nuclear Batteries
- Thread starter Frame57
- Start date
Hallis
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Yah i dont think i'll be buying any Uranium/Carbon's lol or anything like that.
Yah i dont think i'll be buying any Uranium/Carbon's lol or anything like that.
270winchester
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
and people thought "what can be so dangerous about flashlights.....it's not like they can cause cancer or anything like that....."
and people thought "what can be so dangerous about flashlights.....it's not like they can cause cancer or anything like that....."
eebowler
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Actually, if the price is right, I wouldn't mind an AA sized light that would last me a decade or two... I'm sure within the next 10 years, both power and efficiency will increase. I am curious.
Actually, if the price is right, I wouldn't mind an AA sized light that would last me a decade or two... I'm sure within the next 10 years, both power and efficiency will increase. I am curious.
MrAl
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Oh good, in about 20 years we'll see the first battery...
then the first self-powered LED...
Take care,
Al
Oh good, in about 20 years we'll see the first battery...
then the first self-powered LED...
Take care,
Al
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James S
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
well, on the upside you can simplify the construction of the light, you don't need an on/off switch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just run it all the time...
Sounds more like a tritium vial that outputs electricity rather than a reactor.
well, on the upside you can simplify the construction of the light, you don't need an on/off switch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just run it all the time...
Sounds more like a tritium vial that outputs electricity rather than a reactor.
NewBie
*Retired*
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Actually, the US DoD had a nuclear battery that lasted for 98 years to something like half output back in 1969.
Actually, the US DoD had a nuclear battery that lasted for 98 years to something like half output back in 1969.
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
I wonder if there would be a problem taking it on an airplane...
Tom
I wonder if there would be a problem taking it on an airplane...
Tom
turbodog
Flashaholic
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
You should see some at&t batteries that I saw once that had a 50 year warranty on them.
You should see some at&t batteries that I saw once that had a 50 year warranty on them.
eebowler
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Years ago in my 'A' level chemistry text, they mentioned something about a nuclear battery used in pacemakers that lasts about 10 years.
Years ago in my 'A' level chemistry text, they mentioned something about a nuclear battery used in pacemakers that lasts about 10 years.
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
Bravo25
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
I guess you could figure that abaout the time the light stopped glowing you would start.
I guess you could figure that abaout the time the light stopped glowing you would start.
LED_ASAP
Enlightened
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
The current nuclea-battery can only supply a few mA on a sustained basis, which isn't all that much. A Tritium-charged glow powder would be a more efficient way of generating the glow.
The current nuclea-battery can only supply a few mA on a sustained basis, which isn't all that much. A Tritium-charged glow powder would be a more efficient way of generating the glow.
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
[ QUOTE ]
RussH said:
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
[/ QUOTE ]
Er, actually since dead satellites tend to *fall back* to earth outer space is fairly safe. We, OTOH.......
Doug Owen
[ QUOTE ]
RussH said:
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
[/ QUOTE ]
Er, actually since dead satellites tend to *fall back* to earth outer space is fairly safe. We, OTOH.......
Doug Owen
MrMom
Enlightened
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
Consumer warning:
This device is known by the state of California to cause cancer.
Consumer warning:
This device is known by the state of California to cause cancer.
James S
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
There are 2 different kind of these batteries as far as I know. The old kind that are used on space ships (no, they are not generally used on regular satellites as they can much more efficiently be powered by solar panels, nuke batteries are only used on craft that are going too far away from the sun to make good use of solar panels, like the ones at Jupiter and Saturn right now) these have a large amount of plutonium or something on them which is just to the point of having a reaction and gets nice and hot, that heat is turned into power by a thermocouple just like the one being used to cool that CPU in your computer only backwards. These are the things at the end of the long beams when you see the animations of the craft from NASA, they have to be as far away from the CCD's in the cameras or the radiation leaves tracks in the images and can also mess with other componants.
This new thing turns the ionizing radiation directly to electricity. Which is pretty cool since it can run on a very very small sample of material, no heating necessary. I don't know what this new technology is all about, but it used to be you could get a good high voltage but at an infinitesimal wattage.
There are 2 different kind of these batteries as far as I know. The old kind that are used on space ships (no, they are not generally used on regular satellites as they can much more efficiently be powered by solar panels, nuke batteries are only used on craft that are going too far away from the sun to make good use of solar panels, like the ones at Jupiter and Saturn right now) these have a large amount of plutonium or something on them which is just to the point of having a reaction and gets nice and hot, that heat is turned into power by a thermocouple just like the one being used to cool that CPU in your computer only backwards. These are the things at the end of the long beams when you see the animations of the craft from NASA, they have to be as far away from the CCD's in the cameras or the radiation leaves tracks in the images and can also mess with other componants.
This new thing turns the ionizing radiation directly to electricity. Which is pretty cool since it can run on a very very small sample of material, no heating necessary. I don't know what this new technology is all about, but it used to be you could get a good high voltage but at an infinitesimal wattage.
ViReN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
"Flashaholism" itself is a disease, more dangerous than cancer IMO MrMom, what are you talking about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif cancer is nothing man....
Flashaholism Adverse Effects:
1) Nearly Empty Pockets, Subject tends to buy more lights than ever
2) Closets full of Flashlights, Need new places to hide em (from wife, unless she is also a flashaholic)
3) Her closer will also find some traces of Flashlights (in case she has got your Flashaholic infection)
4) Inductors (one of Major Role Players, along with few other components) Might Eat your head, while designing good circuits..... for a better efficiency
Ok Enough Off topic.
But Its true, we need something strong like a Nuclear Battery to run the flashlights for ever. Sometimes, i find it silly that we need to change / charge batteries every now and then. A thought did run in my mind of providing a sorta nuclear like power. but the only concern was, since its "radio Active" to shield it from its bad effects, we would require a lot of Lead, which will in turn make it heavy (that ... this_is_nascar, wont like at all, running longer, faster & Lighter being his moto) and further more, lead itself is now considered as dangerous (when we are looking at many "lead free" things including Gasoline).
So, the riddle still remains, how to get infinately long duration battery!!! Chemicles will burn out, rechargables are hassels....
do we have to think of "bionic" batteries and flashlights (i am expecting this to happen sooner or later) that will directly plug in to our bodies (NOTE: Our body generates energy fairly efficiently as compared to other sources), may be we run "thor's business head" plugged directly in to our bodies, running it for about an hour or so, will make us feel a little bit more tired !.... ooh and MrBulk's Wont have to worry about producint LiIonHeart /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .... he just have to make "business Heads" making more and more brighter.....But Mr Bulk, Just take care that we wont get "tired" (for driving em at higher currents)...
some day... we will have warnings like "WARNING: This flashlight will eat up your energy, Dont use (plugin to your body) when tired"
Ok... Everyone....back to real world....
ViReN
"Flashaholism" itself is a disease, more dangerous than cancer IMO MrMom, what are you talking about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif cancer is nothing man....
Flashaholism Adverse Effects:
1) Nearly Empty Pockets, Subject tends to buy more lights than ever
2) Closets full of Flashlights, Need new places to hide em (from wife, unless she is also a flashaholic)
3) Her closer will also find some traces of Flashlights (in case she has got your Flashaholic infection)
4) Inductors (one of Major Role Players, along with few other components) Might Eat your head, while designing good circuits..... for a better efficiency
Ok Enough Off topic.
But Its true, we need something strong like a Nuclear Battery to run the flashlights for ever. Sometimes, i find it silly that we need to change / charge batteries every now and then. A thought did run in my mind of providing a sorta nuclear like power. but the only concern was, since its "radio Active" to shield it from its bad effects, we would require a lot of Lead, which will in turn make it heavy (that ... this_is_nascar, wont like at all, running longer, faster & Lighter being his moto) and further more, lead itself is now considered as dangerous (when we are looking at many "lead free" things including Gasoline).
So, the riddle still remains, how to get infinately long duration battery!!! Chemicles will burn out, rechargables are hassels....
do we have to think of "bionic" batteries and flashlights (i am expecting this to happen sooner or later) that will directly plug in to our bodies (NOTE: Our body generates energy fairly efficiently as compared to other sources), may be we run "thor's business head" plugged directly in to our bodies, running it for about an hour or so, will make us feel a little bit more tired !.... ooh and MrBulk's Wont have to worry about producint LiIonHeart /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif .... he just have to make "business Heads" making more and more brighter.....But Mr Bulk, Just take care that we wont get "tired" (for driving em at higher currents)...
some day... we will have warnings like "WARNING: This flashlight will eat up your energy, Dont use (plugin to your body) when tired"
Ok... Everyone....back to real world....
ViReN
mattheww50
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
As I recall the pacemaker battery was a small plutonium source, the alpha particles excited a phosphor, which in turn, drove solar cells. Pacemakers don't need much power (microwatts probably).
The amount of shielding you need is very sensitive to how much radiation, the type of radiation, and the energy. Plutonium is an alpha emitter, and even a mutli million ev alpha particle isn't going anywhere. A single sheet of aluminum foil will stop it dead in its tracks. Pu 238 (88 year half life) decays via alpha emission to U234, which with a half life of 240,000 years. Heavy metal poisoning from ingesting Uranium will kill you long before the radiation does! keeping the radiation bottled up is easy, it is keeping the Plutonium bottled up that you have to worry about.
This is less of an issue with bomb material (PU239), which has a half life of about 24,000 years, on a gram for gram basis it only produces about .3% of the heat Pu238 produces.
Most of the space thermoelectric generators are Plutonium powered. It should be remember that only certain isotopes are capable of a self sustaining fission reaction. So relatively large amounts of non-fissile material may be used, and some Plutonium isotopes such as Pu238 are so unstable that even small amounts produce large amounts of heat as a result of the multimillion Electron Volt alpha particles colliding with out Plutonium atoms, and the shielding. Reportedly about 10 grams of PU238 will run an 8 cup coffee maker for about 80 years. That is how much heat is generated from spontaneous decay.
The whole problem with Pu however is that it is exceptionally toxic, and what has killed these programs was the realization that a nuclear pacemaker or other nuclear battery could be accidentally incinerated when the user died,and was cremated, or other nuclear battery powered device get tossed in the trash, or things like airplane crashes would release Pu into the envirornment. That is something that you never want to do....
In my youth I worked in a radiotherapy center, and I remember the Health Physicist showing me a calcuation that showed our 10 Kilocurie Cobalt 60 source stayed quite warm. It was putting about the amount of heat as a 20 watt lightbulb from spontaenous decay, and it was a lot smaller.
As I recall the pacemaker battery was a small plutonium source, the alpha particles excited a phosphor, which in turn, drove solar cells. Pacemakers don't need much power (microwatts probably).
The amount of shielding you need is very sensitive to how much radiation, the type of radiation, and the energy. Plutonium is an alpha emitter, and even a mutli million ev alpha particle isn't going anywhere. A single sheet of aluminum foil will stop it dead in its tracks. Pu 238 (88 year half life) decays via alpha emission to U234, which with a half life of 240,000 years. Heavy metal poisoning from ingesting Uranium will kill you long before the radiation does! keeping the radiation bottled up is easy, it is keeping the Plutonium bottled up that you have to worry about.
This is less of an issue with bomb material (PU239), which has a half life of about 24,000 years, on a gram for gram basis it only produces about .3% of the heat Pu238 produces.
Most of the space thermoelectric generators are Plutonium powered. It should be remember that only certain isotopes are capable of a self sustaining fission reaction. So relatively large amounts of non-fissile material may be used, and some Plutonium isotopes such as Pu238 are so unstable that even small amounts produce large amounts of heat as a result of the multimillion Electron Volt alpha particles colliding with out Plutonium atoms, and the shielding. Reportedly about 10 grams of PU238 will run an 8 cup coffee maker for about 80 years. That is how much heat is generated from spontaneous decay.
The whole problem with Pu however is that it is exceptionally toxic, and what has killed these programs was the realization that a nuclear pacemaker or other nuclear battery could be accidentally incinerated when the user died,and was cremated, or other nuclear battery powered device get tossed in the trash, or things like airplane crashes would release Pu into the envirornment. That is something that you never want to do....
In my youth I worked in a radiotherapy center, and I remember the Health Physicist showing me a calcuation that showed our 10 Kilocurie Cobalt 60 source stayed quite warm. It was putting about the amount of heat as a 20 watt lightbulb from spontaenous decay, and it was a lot smaller.
NewBie
*Retired*
Re: Miniture Nuclear Batteries
[ QUOTE ]
RussH said:
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
[/ QUOTE ]
Humm, something about half-life of the fuel in them.
Here is a link for the RTGs:
OFFICE OF SPACE & DEFENSE POWER SYSTEMS
Radioisotope Power Systems
History
Program Description
General Purpose Heat Source (GPHS)
Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU)
History
Publications and Fact Sheets
Cassini
The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has provided radioisotope thermoelectric generators for space applications since 1961. These generators provide electrical power for spacecraft by direct conversion of the heat generated by the decay of plutonium-238 (Pu-238) oxide to electrical energy. The first generator was used on the Navy Transit 4A spacecraft launched on June 29, 1961. Between 1961 and 1972, DOE provided power systems for six Navy navigational satellites. In addition, DOE provided power systems for two Air Force communications satellites, LES 8 and LES 9, both launched together on March 14, 1976
These solar system exploration missions have continued far beyond their design life of about 5 years each, with the Voyager spacecraft now having traveled through the solar system and beyond, providing data over the last 20 years. The Voyager spacecraft is expected to provide data for another 25 years.
They have even utilized them in recently launched things.
More info here:
http://www.ne.doe.gov/space/space-history.html
Also - you MIGHT check with the Coast Guard to see if they have info on very
similar devices (except they use Sr-90 instead of Pu-238) for powering bouys.
SNAP-27 Characteristics
The SNAP-27 power supply weighed about 20 kilograms, was 46 cm long and 40.6 cm in diameter. It consisted of a central fuel capsule surrounded by concentric rings of thermocouples. Outside of the thermocouples was a set of fins to provide for heat rejection from the cold side of the thermocouple.
Each of the SNAP devices produced approximately 75 W of electrical power at 30 VDC. The energy source for each device was a rod of plutonium-238 weighing approximately 2.5 kilograms and providing a thermal power of approximately 1250 W.
Plutonium-238 is a non-fissile isotope of plutonium that decays by alpha particle emission with essentially zero associated gamma emissions. This characteristic was very important for the ALSEP powering application, both because the instruments would have been negatively affected by interference from a gamma emitter and because the devices required close handling by lunar astronauts.
Even though the only radiation from Pu-238 is alpha particles which require little shielding, it is necessary to use thick gloves when handling a 2.5 kilogram rod of Pu-238. The surface temperature will reach about 500 degrees C because of the energy being released by radioactive decay. After ten years of continuous power output, a Pu-238 based RTG will still produce 92% of its initial power.
One measure of performance that is often used for chemical storage batteries is the amp-hour. A modern battery might have a capacity of 1.5 amp-hrs/kg. The SNAP-27 power supplies demonstrated the ability to provide more than 4380 amp-hrs/kg during the four years that their performance was monitored. Similar RTGs have produced 24,000 amp-hrs/kg during a 20 year operating life and are still going strong.
Other SNAP devices used various radioisotope's for power strontium, polonium, curium-242, Cesium, and of course Plutonium 238.
Additional work was conducted at Sanders Nuclear, a subsidiary of Sanders Associates of Nashua, New Hampshire and Cambridge Nuclear Corporation. There was work done on Thulium-170 and Thulium-171 isotopic powered thermoelectric converters.
In nuclear, Boeing's heritage includes development of space nuclear auxiliary power systems (SNAP 8 and SNAP 10A programs), high space power reactor systems (100 kWe SP-100 and 5 MWe Multi-Megawatt programs), and dynamic isotope power systems (2.5-to-6 kWe DIPS programs).
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/energy/spacepower.html
Be sure to check out the multi-megawatt (5,000,000 Watt) miniature nuclear power system....wonder what the use of that could be for... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
[ QUOTE ]
RussH said:
So, how did they test it for 98 years in 1969? Time machine? Seriously, there have been a number of small nuclear power supplies developed for such things as satellites, mainly by the Russians. We wouldn't want to pollute outer space, would we?
[/ QUOTE ]
Humm, something about half-life of the fuel in them.
Here is a link for the RTGs:
OFFICE OF SPACE & DEFENSE POWER SYSTEMS
Radioisotope Power Systems
History
Program Description
General Purpose Heat Source (GPHS)
Radioisotope Heater Units (RHU)
History
Publications and Fact Sheets
Cassini
The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has provided radioisotope thermoelectric generators for space applications since 1961. These generators provide electrical power for spacecraft by direct conversion of the heat generated by the decay of plutonium-238 (Pu-238) oxide to electrical energy. The first generator was used on the Navy Transit 4A spacecraft launched on June 29, 1961. Between 1961 and 1972, DOE provided power systems for six Navy navigational satellites. In addition, DOE provided power systems for two Air Force communications satellites, LES 8 and LES 9, both launched together on March 14, 1976
These solar system exploration missions have continued far beyond their design life of about 5 years each, with the Voyager spacecraft now having traveled through the solar system and beyond, providing data over the last 20 years. The Voyager spacecraft is expected to provide data for another 25 years.
They have even utilized them in recently launched things.
More info here:
http://www.ne.doe.gov/space/space-history.html
Also - you MIGHT check with the Coast Guard to see if they have info on very
similar devices (except they use Sr-90 instead of Pu-238) for powering bouys.
SNAP-27 Characteristics
The SNAP-27 power supply weighed about 20 kilograms, was 46 cm long and 40.6 cm in diameter. It consisted of a central fuel capsule surrounded by concentric rings of thermocouples. Outside of the thermocouples was a set of fins to provide for heat rejection from the cold side of the thermocouple.
Each of the SNAP devices produced approximately 75 W of electrical power at 30 VDC. The energy source for each device was a rod of plutonium-238 weighing approximately 2.5 kilograms and providing a thermal power of approximately 1250 W.
Plutonium-238 is a non-fissile isotope of plutonium that decays by alpha particle emission with essentially zero associated gamma emissions. This characteristic was very important for the ALSEP powering application, both because the instruments would have been negatively affected by interference from a gamma emitter and because the devices required close handling by lunar astronauts.
Even though the only radiation from Pu-238 is alpha particles which require little shielding, it is necessary to use thick gloves when handling a 2.5 kilogram rod of Pu-238. The surface temperature will reach about 500 degrees C because of the energy being released by radioactive decay. After ten years of continuous power output, a Pu-238 based RTG will still produce 92% of its initial power.
One measure of performance that is often used for chemical storage batteries is the amp-hour. A modern battery might have a capacity of 1.5 amp-hrs/kg. The SNAP-27 power supplies demonstrated the ability to provide more than 4380 amp-hrs/kg during the four years that their performance was monitored. Similar RTGs have produced 24,000 amp-hrs/kg during a 20 year operating life and are still going strong.
Other SNAP devices used various radioisotope's for power strontium, polonium, curium-242, Cesium, and of course Plutonium 238.
Additional work was conducted at Sanders Nuclear, a subsidiary of Sanders Associates of Nashua, New Hampshire and Cambridge Nuclear Corporation. There was work done on Thulium-170 and Thulium-171 isotopic powered thermoelectric converters.
In nuclear, Boeing's heritage includes development of space nuclear auxiliary power systems (SNAP 8 and SNAP 10A programs), high space power reactor systems (100 kWe SP-100 and 5 MWe Multi-Megawatt programs), and dynamic isotope power systems (2.5-to-6 kWe DIPS programs).
http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/energy/spacepower.html
Be sure to check out the multi-megawatt (5,000,000 Watt) miniature nuclear power system....wonder what the use of that could be for... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
