I favor "neutral" white LED's for blood-trailing deer after dark. My current is a CREE XM-L U2, but it seems like there is a trend among all the manufacturers springing up to come up with proprietary desciptors to characterize the tint of their beams. Short of becoming an expert on all the various LED options, what are the main descriptors that are equvalent to neutral white? And while I'm at it what's equivalent to "cool" white? I also seen the term "natural" white, but don't know which it's equal to.
"neutral white" equivalents?
- Thread starter olddogrib
- Start date
What you really want to look for is the Kelvin rating. Neutral is 5000- 5500k (sunlight at solar noon) or there about, Cool will be 6500k or that direction from Neutral, warm will be 3500k side etc. The annoying thing is some manufacturers call their lights 'neutral' when they are really warm... You do not have to stray very far from neutral before the light is noticeably more yellow/warm looking. Course part of it is how much you pay attention to it...
http://learningdslr.com/2011/11/bac...r-temperature-kelvin-scale-and-white-balance/
The other issue is even if you get a light with an emitter that is rated for a certain color temp/ Kelvin there are differences even in the same emitter, I have like 4-5 lights with the XP-E2 emitter and they are all a bit different from each other in tint.
Then there is the high CRI topic... I think the Nichia 219 lights are among the favorite there, like CRI of 93. But not as bright as other emitters for the same power.
I have heard some say that they prefer incandescent lights for blood tracking, not a hunter myself so I have no clue. I will leave that to someone else.
Hope that helps. :)
http://learningdslr.com/2011/11/bac...r-temperature-kelvin-scale-and-white-balance/
The other issue is even if you get a light with an emitter that is rated for a certain color temp/ Kelvin there are differences even in the same emitter, I have like 4-5 lights with the XP-E2 emitter and they are all a bit different from each other in tint.
Then there is the high CRI topic... I think the Nichia 219 lights are among the favorite there, like CRI of 93. But not as bright as other emitters for the same power.
I have heard some say that they prefer incandescent lights for blood tracking, not a hunter myself so I have no clue. I will leave that to someone else.
Hope that helps. :)
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RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
First off, Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:
I believe that 4300K is pure white on the Kelvin scale. So, cool white would be anything above say 5000K or so, and warm white would be anything less than say 3700K or so. Everything else in the middle is a neutral white. That is in layman's terms.
THEN, there is tint binning on the LED's that kind of goes along with the Kelvin number. Confusing, but once you know what type of tints that you like, just stick to those tints and colors on the Kelvin scale.
jimboutilier
Enlightened
I guess the first thing is an XML-U2 is normally considered cool white. It's not until you get down into the T6 bins you start seeing neutrals. Maybe they've come up with something in between they are calling natural.
That said, there are a number of things that drive the appearance of LED light. There is the LED itself and it's tint bin and color temperature, there can be considerable difference even within a bin, this can change somewhat by how hard or softly it's driven, and then the optics of the light and any coatings on the reflector and glass can make a difference and finally how each of us perceive white or any given color can differ even within a person from one eye to the other. Then of course as you've already seen in this thread there is no standard, universal definitions of the terms cool or neutral or natural or warm.
Most folks could agree that somewhere in the 5000s light starts to appear to be cool. For some it may be nearer to 5000 and others nearer 5999 but somewhere in there most folks will call it cool. On the other end most folks will call light warm somewhere in the 3000's. For some it may be 3700 or others 3200. That leaves the 4000's (and maybe low 5000's or high 3000's for neutral.
What I perceive as whitest is in the 4500-5500k. A lot of specs I've seen transition out of neutral and into cool at 5000k so that makes sense to me. You add a little blue to white to make it whiter. Natural I've never seen a definition for.
That said, there are a number of things that drive the appearance of LED light. There is the LED itself and it's tint bin and color temperature, there can be considerable difference even within a bin, this can change somewhat by how hard or softly it's driven, and then the optics of the light and any coatings on the reflector and glass can make a difference and finally how each of us perceive white or any given color can differ even within a person from one eye to the other. Then of course as you've already seen in this thread there is no standard, universal definitions of the terms cool or neutral or natural or warm.
Most folks could agree that somewhere in the 5000s light starts to appear to be cool. For some it may be nearer to 5000 and others nearer 5999 but somewhere in there most folks will call it cool. On the other end most folks will call light warm somewhere in the 3000's. For some it may be 3700 or others 3200. That leaves the 4000's (and maybe low 5000's or high 3000's for neutral.
What I perceive as whitest is in the 4500-5500k. A lot of specs I've seen transition out of neutral and into cool at 5000k so that makes sense to me. You add a little blue to white to make it whiter. Natural I've never seen a definition for.
kyhunter1
Flashlight Enthusiast
The other members have covered tint really well. From my experience deer hunting and blood trailing, a high output flood beam light is best. I would suggest a multi mode triple p60 module based light with nichia 219 92 cri emmiters. This will give both the output and color rendering needed.
My bad, went back and looked and I mis-stated the LED. It actually a XM-L2 U2, but I did verify that it's neutral. Nice folks at illuminationgear.com. Took the time to explain "everything you wanted to know about tint and weren't afraid to ask" to an admitted dummy. Apparently ET is trying to get away from the U2/T6 designation due to the brightness gap has closed with tech advances to where neutral isn't far behind cool and you can find overlap in these designations now, i.e. some cool in T6 and some neutral in U2.
I'm not sure what you mean.
The temperature of the sun's surface is about 5800K. This is a good black-body radiation source, and corresponds to a peak wavelength of about 500nm, which we see as green light.
I don't think it's any coincidence that our eyes are most sensitive to green, since that is the wavelength given off most by the sun. The other wavelengths given off make up the "white" light.
I assume that 5800K would be the best color temperature for "pure white" light, since that is the color of sunlight. Perhaps a bit lower after the atmosphere has scattered off some of the blue. I measure direct sunlight at 5500K at this time of year.
Granted, we often refer to this as "cool white", and your 4300K example to be something more "neutral white". But that's just terminology. It doesn't mean that 4300K light is more pure than 5800K. In fact, get out that "neutral white" flashlight on a cloudy day and shine it around, and it will look very warm in contrast to the natural light.
Our eyes are good at adapting. Personally, I find anything from 3500K to 6500K to look pretty neutral and "pure white", when it's the only light source. I don't really start seeing blue until it gets above 6500K. Past 7500K, and it starts to look pretty ugly. Although, I'm not sure if it looks ugly because of the temperature of the light, or the horrible CRI at that point.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I read that when I bought my HID headlights. 4300K was the pure white equivalent. Maybe the HID colors do not translate through to LED's?
[h=2]4300 Kelvin[/h]
[h=2]4300 Kelvin[/h]
- 4,300 Kelvin indicates a white light with a yellow tint. It is fairly close in color to sunlight. In HID lamps, this color gives the most visible light. As it has he best performance, it is generally chosen by car manufacturers because of its high performance.
- 6,000 Kelvin is almost pure white, but has a very faint tint of blue. HID lamps with this rating have a very high performance, although they don't give off quite so much visible light as 4,300 Kelvin lamps. This color is very popular as an aftermarket option.
4300K is the color temperature of early morning or evening sunlight, because the atmosphere scatters more of the blue wavelengths away as the sunlight has to travel through more of the atmosphere. Hence, the "warmer" colors (reds, yellows) are left.
The color temperature is more "cool" when the sun is higher in the sky. (I really hate that "cool" implies a hotter color temperature, and "warm" implies a lower color temperature, but that's the backwards terminology we use.)
I think you may be using "pure white" as a reference to high CRI lights. It's often true that high CRI is more common with LEDs with a "warmer" tint, but it doesn't have to be. It's also true that warmer tints allow us to see reds much more easily, which are more common colors in the environment than blue is. Cooler tints allow us to see blue more easily, but sucks at the reds. I think that's why ~4500K is considered neutral: it allows us to see both reds and blues fairly easily.
Also, I think we just like warmer tints, because it reminds our brains of fire. Probably something linked with evolution, there.
The color temperature is more "cool" when the sun is higher in the sky. (I really hate that "cool" implies a hotter color temperature, and "warm" implies a lower color temperature, but that's the backwards terminology we use.)
I think you may be using "pure white" as a reference to high CRI lights. It's often true that high CRI is more common with LEDs with a "warmer" tint, but it doesn't have to be. It's also true that warmer tints allow us to see reds much more easily, which are more common colors in the environment than blue is. Cooler tints allow us to see blue more easily, but sucks at the reds. I think that's why ~4500K is considered neutral: it allows us to see both reds and blues fairly easily.
Also, I think we just like warmer tints, because it reminds our brains of fire. Probably something linked with evolution, there.
AnAppleSnail
Flashlight Enthusiast
Going by my camera (And having to color-correct the 5500K "sunlight" setting), the CRI of sunlight ranges between 3500K and 6000K depending on what part of the day you are getting sunlight. Direct sunset vs. indirect noonday light are sunlight we are used to, but very different in distribution.
Read on: CRI of white LEDs
There are several "key words" that indicate neutral-white, depending on which manufacturer you are buying from. As stated, the CCT is the best indicator you'll get, although CRI+CCT+tint only partly describe a given light source.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
No confusion here between HCRI and pure white. But thanks for the nice explanations. :thumbsup:
AnAppleSnail
Flashlight Enthusiast
I don't think I've found a credible study that defined a CCT as white. What will actually appear white in any given instance will depend on what you were looking at before. Neutral-white lights look quite buttery next to daylight filtering in a North-facing window. The same light will look cool next to a tungsten filament. I would accept as white most lights with reasonable tint in the range of 4000K and 5500K, with preference towards lower CCT at lower output and higher CCT at higher output. That does assume the light has a relatively balanced SPD (Spectral Power Distribution) which is what we are actually interested in - How many photons of each wavelength are there?
The light measurements we use, like CCT, CRI, tint bin, etc are just measurements of the SPD- They do not fully describe the light. Even within just the visible range, it is best to describe these parameters as creating a model of the actual light. CCT requires the assumption that a light is very much like a black-body radiator. This assumption isn't usually true for LEDs or arc lamps (HID bulbs). The LED or arc will emit with an overall different output at each wavelength than the black-body source of the stated CCT. In summary, I'd say most CCT between 4000K and 5500K are neutral-looking to me in most situations.
RI Chevy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I was just speaking in layman's terms. I was just generally speaking. It can get very scientific, to get to the exact definitions of certain kelvin scale colors. To me, 4000K is a little on the lower end of the neutral scale, and above 5000K is cool. I do not like any blue hues in my LED tints. My favorite tints for LED's have been the Nichia 219 4300K, and the Malkoff N's at 4000K.
I have wondered about the logic of that a few times myself. :)
