ketching up on this thread.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
tandem on 11-28-2010 08:58 AM GMT
Yes, the TK12 R5 takes 18650 cells "out of the box". Aside from
fitting in the tube the other thing you need to be concerned about wiht
18650 cells is that there really isn't a "standard" size including
length. Some have flat-tops on the positive end, some have button tops.
Some have little bumps on the negative end, some are flat. Some flat top
cells don't fit in certain lights and some button top cells don't fit
in lights due to length.
Going with the 1x18650 is a good move - better capacity and simpler cell management.
One of the not-obvious benefits of using a single 18650 cell is that
two-cell arrangements are slightly riskier. Even primaries (non
rechargeable) CR123 cells can cause similar pressure-related failures in
a light if a bad cell gets mixed with a good one.
A police officer in another thread was recently commenting on how
he and one other deputy had both had a flashlight "explode" on their hips, likely due to one bad CR123 in a two CR123 light.
As for the "best" deal on cells and chargers, I would suggest you buy
the safest cells and charger. That means you want to buy for your use a
"protected" cell and a charger known to follow the proper charging
algorithm for li-ion cells. You'd think that all chargers would do the
latter, but sadly this has not been the case. Improper charging can put
cells in a dangerous state where they can vent toxic fumes and flames,
or even cause an explosion if it happens within sealed tube such as a
flashlight.
Charger: You can't go wrong with a Pila IBC. It isn't the cheapest
charger out there, but the chances of you burning down your home are
lower than with some of the deal of the week unknown quality chargers
you'll find all over the internet. It will charge your cells properly
will terminate properly. Where to buy: A number of dealers that frequent
CPF sell the Pila. I've seen it range from ~ 45 - 49 bucks. You can
find cheaper but you can't find better cheaper.
Cells: Personally I will only buy cells manufactured by reputable
integrators (all protected cells are actually "made" by very small
companies using source cells from Panasonic and other good or bad cell
makers). The TK12 is known to work with flat top cells. I assume it
works with button tops but don't know that for a fact.
The two cell makes that people around here find trustworthy above all
others are the "AW" (the longest running maker of high quality protected
cells) and "Redilast" (a more recent entry who uses the same Panasonic
cells as AW does). You can find sales threads for both in the
CPF Marketplace Dealers Corner.
You will find that some flashlight dealers who sell Pila chargers also
sell 18650 cells. There probably are others that sell both Pila and
AW|Redilast. I know Oveready.com sells both AW and Pila; LightHound.com
also sells AW and Pila.
Neither AW|Redilast or the Pila charger are the cheapest product out
there in the class, but for someone that just needs to depend on their
cells and charger, who likely isn't going to check cell voltages every
time a cell comes out of the light or out of the charger to keep on top
of whether there devices are doing naughty things to their high energy
cells - going with known to be safe products is the best advice we can
give.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
JoVo on 11-28-2010 09:03 AM GMT
Hello!
The TK12 R5 can take 18650 without an extra tube.
The cheap solution: Get Trustfires from
Dealextreme and the HXY-charger from
shiningbeam.
The better but more expensive solution: Search for AW batteries and the Pila IBC charger.
Regards,
Jonas
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
tandem on 11-28-2010 09:34 AM GMT
I don't have personal experience with the HXY Charger. ShingingBeam
is a good outfit, but what they do essentially is market the same sort
of products you can find on DealExtreme but subject them to more quality
control before they go out. That might be fine for flashlights where
"quality control" mostly means making sure it works and isn't likely to
die quickly, but for chargers making sure it works means a lot more than
whether it'll charge a cell.
Any charger that applies an appropriate voltage and current for a period
of time will charge a cell, but whether it applies the right voltage
and current at the appropriate times and terminates likely goes beyond
ShiningBeam's ability to test and enforce. While I'd buy an inexpensive
flashlight from ShiningBeam I wouldn't buy a charger from them (or from
DealExtreme), not unless it was a Pila. But that's just me. You'll find
strong opinions about this subject.
Fortunately the community here at CPF includes some with very deep
technical credentials and the subject of safety as it pertains to power
sources and chargers gets a ton of attention. Most commonly sold
chargers eventually fall under the CPF member led inspection radar.
Is the HXY sufficiently safe for non-enthusiasts to use? By that I mean
can you slap cells in it and walk away, even for days or weeks
(something I would *never* recommend anyone do, even with a Pila), and
not have potentially serious issues?
I can't speak to that with authority but what
discussion that has surrounded it suggests that it
may not meet that test
(voltage, current graph). Even if it didn't appear to trickle charge (a
definite no-no), the implementation of the charging algorithm ensures
it'll charge much slower than its advertised 1amp rate would suggest. A
Pila 600mA will likely beat it, especially with larger capacity 18650
cells.
clayter21 - The
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=229923Consumer Li-Ion "cradle" charger roundup
thread is a good one to peruse if you have the time and interest in
technical discussions. A general conclusion: The very commonly found
Ultrafire WF-139 chargers are probably best to be avoided. There are
multiple versions of these floating around, including some that are
downright dangerous. If you shop for these on EBAY you never know what
you are going to get. A YOHO-122 comes close to meeting the ideal, if
you can find one, but still has flaws. If you have the intent to buy a
cheaper charger than the Pila, IMO that thread is required reading.
Bottom line: Don't assume that just because a dealer lists a charger on
their site it is safe to use. Don't buy chargers that trickle charge
after the cell is fully charged. Don't buy a charger unless it has been
proven by experts here to terminate properly.
Likewise I would not shop for cells on that auction site where you got
your flashlight, either -- there have been numerous reports of
faked/forgery cells being sold on EBay. Its good you got a deal on the
TK12 but buy your cells and charger from a reputable dealer instead of
that auction site.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 11-28-2010 10:10 AM GMT
thanks guys.
I was looking on ebay for batteries but I was worried about the quality.
After reading some more on how dangerous these batteries can be I think
I will get them from a reputable site.
As for the flashlight I bought off ebay I made sure it was the real
thing. The seller is from the U.S and he only sales these flash lights. I
will let you guys know how it goes.
Thanks again you all are a great help.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
tandem on 11-28-2010 11:22 AM GMT
I almost forgot -- welcome to CPF clayter21! Let us know how your
new system is working out for you once you get all the pieces together.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 11-28-2010 01:00 PM GMT
@jovo.....So if I get what u recommend I should be good to go? It seems to be good price too.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 11-28-2010 02:55 PM GMT
Here is what im thinking of getting. let me know if its good. The reviews on the charger say they are pretty good.
[links removed - DM51]
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
JoVo on 11-28-2010 03:45 PM GMT
I have and use this combination at the moment. Yes, it's cheap and
it works. The only flaw is, that these cheap China-chargers are not too
famous for their quality and security. You don't know what happens to
the LiIon battery if you get some voltage peaks in your power line.
I would recommend to use this only if you're in the room and can quickly pull it out if something goes wrong.
Also you should take the batteries out as soon as the LED is green.
Until now, I haven't read anything but good things about the flamed Trustfire batteries.
Regards,
Jonas
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
tandem on 11-29-2010 11:14 AM GMT
clayter21 said:
Here is what im thinking of getting. let me know if its good. The reviews on the charger say they are pretty good.
What reviews? Those made on DX by so-called "expert" buyers? What reviews? Those made on DX by so-called "expert" buyers?
The first review says it's a "perfect" charger simply because the
reviewer made one voltage measurement, and almost in the same breath
notes it makes an alarming hissing noise if you put an over discharged
cell into the unit. The next indicates cells don't sit properly, and
that is the extent of the reivew. The third reviewer self-classified as
an expert simply states that it charges "batteries" well so it should be
bought. No mention of testing at all. How does this person know the
cell is charged correctly? As for being an "expert", we should point out
to him that what he is inserting into the charger isn't a "battery" but
one or two cells. The fourth reviewer, also self classified as an
"expert" lists as a "Pro" the fact that the unit will charge "batteries"
to 4.25V. That fact isn't a Pro but a Con. At least this person has
decided that having a 20-30% failure rate in the multiple chargers he
has bought is unacceptable so he's moving on.
I like this quote on the subject from the Consumer li-ion charger roundup I linked to up-thread:
mdocod said:
It is very common practice for people on this
forum and amongst other hobby groups to pick up one of the many budget
chargers out there, do a charge, and take a moment to see if the cell is
reading the correct voltage. At which point, if it's reading ~4.20V,
the charger is assumed good to go and it's getting raving reviews at DX.
Let me ask you this -- would you take policing advice from some
faceless person over the internet without first sizing up the person for
credentials? In a community like CPF even though many of us are
faceless entities behind pen-names, you can over time determine the
measure of a person simply by following their writing and the approach
they take. Folks here that take on technical testing of lights, cells,
and chargers earn the title "expert" and their street cred is available
for all to see. Let me ask you this -- would you take policing advice from some
faceless person over the internet without first sizing up the person for
credentials? In a community like CPF even though many of us are
faceless entities behind pen-names, you can over time determine the
measure of a person simply by following their writing and the approach
they take. Folks here that take on technical testing of lights, cells,
and chargers earn the title "expert" and their street cred is available
for all to see.
Moving on, the latest info on the charger in question:
sku.6105 - Also known as the HXY charger.
This charger doesn't terminate. Some samples have been seen to
charge cells to too-high a voltage. While the voltage it charges to might not be in the dangerous realm (who knows, your sample might be)
charging beyond 4.2V reduces cell cycle life
at best, if the voltage gets too high, cells can become dangerous. The
deal you get on cells won't feel like a deal if their lifespan is cut in
half. The fact that the charger doesn't terminate indicates this one
should never be left alone; don't leave cells in this charger. Don't
fall asleep after your shift with cells on the charger. Don't leave your
home with cells on the charger.
From another thread, in response to a statement "The HXY is better than the WF-139":
mdocod said:
While I don't really like either one of them, I
would not be so quick to say that the HYX is better than the WF-139. I
need to read up more on the latest gen WF-139 to know for sure, but if
they eliminated the potential for it to miss termination when
nearly-full cells were loaded, then I would pick the WF-139 over the HXY
as being safer. The HYX will trickle a cell as high as 4.25V and hold
it there, the WF-139 will use charging voltages as high as ~4.27V on a
large 18650 cell but will never bring the actual state of charge above
~4.20V, and when the charge is complete, it does actually terminate and
not trickle (minus the first gens).
I never thought I would be "touting" the WF-139 over another charger.
Shows just how highly I think of this modern breed of Tricklers.
In the pursuit of a good reliable charger, many have tried a
great many chargers and very little seems to ever survive the test of
time. In the pursuit of a good reliable charger, many have tried a
great many chargers and very little seems to ever survive the test of
time.
Here's one that blew up a few weeks after first use. That one was called "the good one" by the post author.
One of the problems with many items sold on DX is that you really do not
know for sure what you are getting. A particular SKU might have the
same circuitry as it did last month or last year, or it may not. For
example with the WF/UF-139, which you find sold by DX and other vendors,
there are numerous versions out there, some of which are actually
dangerous to put into regular use. Making matters worse, some companies
are making counterfeit copies of already bad chargers. Since DX and
sites like it are in the business of flogging off crap that often can't
be sold anywhere else, your chances of buying something suboptimal or
worse are actually quite high.
Using a less than ideal (or even unsafe) charger more safely
If you do buy the HXY (or a WF-139 or UF-139 or Trustfire anything or XTAR WP6):
- Purchase a digital multimeter and learn how to use it.
- Measure cells before they go into the charger. Log the cell number (label your cells) and this value.
- If your cell has an open circuit voltage of < 2.5V, don't use it, recycle it.
- Pull cells from the charger and recycle them if they get HOT
- Pull cells from the charger when the light goes green
- Unplug the charger when not in use
- Measure cells right after you pull the cell from the charger. Log
this value. If it reads > 4.20 volts, ask questions here at CPF. If
it reads much greater than 4.2 volts (say 4.3V or greater), chances are
your charger has been damaging the cell not just that one time. Don't
use the cell, recycle it at an approved facility.
- Don't leave cells on the charger. Don't leave cells on the charger.
Don't leave cells on the charger. Don't leave cells on the charger or
the charger plugged in when not in use / when not supervised.
Do all that and likely you'll have no issues.
Or you could buy a Pila and sweat a little less, but some of the safety advice above should still be heeded.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
cableguy on 11-29-2010 07:28 PM GMT
+2 for the pila. I love mine, and I dont worry about it.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 12-03-2010 06:36 PM GMT
I got my light...its super bright. the only problem i have is that
it says 245 lumens. It is the tk12 r5 and the add said 280 lumens with
200m throw. On the box that it came in it says 245 with 179m throw. Is
there a big difference? I already emailed the guy i bought it from so i
will see what he says. I only payed 52 for it so its worth it but if i
can get the 280 lumen I would be happier because that is what the he
advertised. any thoughts on this?
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
Pyranha on 12-03-2010 06:59 PM GMT
Fenix changed to ANSI standards in their performance testing. ANSI
prosedures differ from those fenix used before and that explains the
difference.
Check out manufacturers website:
http://www.fenixlight.com/viewproduct.asp?id=120
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 12-03-2010 07:04 PM GMT
well according to the the fenix site it looks like they dont have the 280 anymore. Is this correct?
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
Pyranha on 12-03-2010 07:06 PM GMT
You misunderstood me, it's still the same light. Only the testing
methods have been changed, thus giving different results than before.
Re: New and need help Fenix tk12 r5
Written by
clayter21 on 12-03-2010 07:20 PM GMT
oh ok...thanks. So i did get the right one. The guy just needs to update his information on ebay.
thank you...you saved me a headache
