New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home security
- Thread starter ledfanfromjuno
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
highlandsun
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Hm, you had me going along with you until you started all that bible-thumping. I was raised in a Baptist church and it seems to me that all they ever spent their time on was thundering about the Book of Revelations. It's a colorful read, but the Bible's a big book, and if you focus all your attention on the ending then you haven't learned everything you should have from it.
Chinese civilization has existed in an unbroken line from thousands of years before Judaism to the present day. Thousands of years worth of humanity have lived and died never having heard of Jesus Christ or Yahweh. I find it hard to believe that all of those people are burning in hell at this moment. Christ himself probably studied Buddhism as a youth; there's nothing in the Bible written about his life between his birth and about his 30s. Where do you think he was, in all that time?
As has been stated before, the Founding Fathers chose every word of the Constitution very deliberately, very precisely. The 2nd Amendment doesn't talk about the "right to bear reasonable arms." It just says "arms." Back in the late 1780s, if you could afford a cannon, I don't think anyone would try to tell you it was illegal. If you owned the most powerful weapon of the day, good for you.
Talking about what's reasonable to own today is silly. If I want to build a megawatt laser, or a neutron bomb, or whatever, that's my business.
The problem of course, is that most people today aren't reasonable enough or responsible enough to be trusted on their own, and this is because the government has been deliberately dumbing down the populace. We have all these laws to protect us from ourselves, to distance ourselves from any real responsibility or consequences of our actions. We have a system the encourages people to blame anyone but themselves when things go wrong, and trains them to cry to Uncle Sam for help. This is wrong.
Hm, you had me going along with you until you started all that bible-thumping. I was raised in a Baptist church and it seems to me that all they ever spent their time on was thundering about the Book of Revelations. It's a colorful read, but the Bible's a big book, and if you focus all your attention on the ending then you haven't learned everything you should have from it.
Chinese civilization has existed in an unbroken line from thousands of years before Judaism to the present day. Thousands of years worth of humanity have lived and died never having heard of Jesus Christ or Yahweh. I find it hard to believe that all of those people are burning in hell at this moment. Christ himself probably studied Buddhism as a youth; there's nothing in the Bible written about his life between his birth and about his 30s. Where do you think he was, in all that time?
As has been stated before, the Founding Fathers chose every word of the Constitution very deliberately, very precisely. The 2nd Amendment doesn't talk about the "right to bear reasonable arms." It just says "arms." Back in the late 1780s, if you could afford a cannon, I don't think anyone would try to tell you it was illegal. If you owned the most powerful weapon of the day, good for you.
Talking about what's reasonable to own today is silly. If I want to build a megawatt laser, or a neutron bomb, or whatever, that's my business.
The problem of course, is that most people today aren't reasonable enough or responsible enough to be trusted on their own, and this is because the government has been deliberately dumbing down the populace. We have all these laws to protect us from ourselves, to distance ourselves from any real responsibility or consequences of our actions. We have a system the encourages people to blame anyone but themselves when things go wrong, and trains them to cry to Uncle Sam for help. This is wrong.
Silviron
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
The "Founding Fathers", whom I believe to be brilliant, inspired and wise men DID intend that "the people" be able to be armed with ANYTHING that any outside force OR their own "government gone wild" could bring against the citizens as a whole or individaually. And I do agree with this mostly.
However they did not forsee Nuclear weapons, and the only "weapons of mass destruction" that they could envision are throwing salt (etc.) in wells for chemical warfare, or pox, plague (etc.) for biological warfare. And if they could have imagined "Nukes" it is my opinion (and opinion only) that they would have specifically exempted them from Constitutionally guaranteed rights.
That said, (and again, just my opinion based upon my analysis of the Founders writings in general {Federalist Papers, autobiographies etc.}) they would allow Megawatt lasers, fuly automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons and just about anything else you can think of.
Anyone who has read and understood the above referenced writings will probably agree that the 2nd Ammendment was established for three primary purposes, with equal weight given to each:
1: Self defense from criminals and critters.
2: Defense of the "state" from outside attackers.
3: Defense of the citizenry from its own "government gone wild".
Now, one question: What the heck is an "Oozie"???
I have heard (and even used, long ago) an UZI (named after its designer Uziel Gal) but never heard of an oozie- (Other than when I didn't tighten the cap my toothpaste tube enough to secure the contents inside my suitcase. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
The "Founding Fathers", whom I believe to be brilliant, inspired and wise men DID intend that "the people" be able to be armed with ANYTHING that any outside force OR their own "government gone wild" could bring against the citizens as a whole or individaually. And I do agree with this mostly.
However they did not forsee Nuclear weapons, and the only "weapons of mass destruction" that they could envision are throwing salt (etc.) in wells for chemical warfare, or pox, plague (etc.) for biological warfare. And if they could have imagined "Nukes" it is my opinion (and opinion only) that they would have specifically exempted them from Constitutionally guaranteed rights.
That said, (and again, just my opinion based upon my analysis of the Founders writings in general {Federalist Papers, autobiographies etc.}) they would allow Megawatt lasers, fuly automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons and just about anything else you can think of.
Anyone who has read and understood the above referenced writings will probably agree that the 2nd Ammendment was established for three primary purposes, with equal weight given to each:
1: Self defense from criminals and critters.
2: Defense of the "state" from outside attackers.
3: Defense of the citizenry from its own "government gone wild".
Now, one question: What the heck is an "Oozie"???
I have heard (and even used, long ago) an UZI (named after its designer Uziel Gal) but never heard of an oozie- (Other than when I didn't tighten the cap my toothpaste tube enough to secure the contents inside my suitcase. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif )
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Hey Silviron, I bet the politicians would change their stance on individual firearms rights pretty quickly if we were to take away the taxpayer provided security details and bodyguards that allow them to live in thier closed societies without honest contact with the citizenry that they are supposed to be representing. If there lives depended on their honor and honesty and the favor of the people they would choose their words and actions more carefully.
I wish people would put the servant back in "public servant" and stop treating these jerks like celebrities and aristocrats.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hey Silviron, I bet the politicians would change their stance on individual firearms rights pretty quickly if we were to take away the taxpayer provided security details and bodyguards that allow them to live in thier closed societies without honest contact with the citizenry that they are supposed to be representing. If there lives depended on their honor and honesty and the favor of the people they would choose their words and actions more carefully.
I wish people would put the servant back in "public servant" and stop treating these jerks like celebrities and aristocrats.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Unless you're actually talking about Oozie Dahl, an UZI is what I was referring to when I said "oozie"... I would think gun buffs would already know this term...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
You might as well make it a free for all, then. I'd love to count on society to behave themselves with their own guns. I guess the only way to reduce or prevent crimes is to go back to the old west days; enforce it with your own bullet. Counting on things like family values or upbringings have worked wonderfully in reducing crimes thus far...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif
If something like the Brady Bill is so devastating to the 2nd Amendment, why let it become law and stand? Where's the uproar to the Supreme Court? Try those congresswo/men who voted for gun control laws with treason then...
Unless you're actually talking about Oozie Dahl, an UZI is what I was referring to when I said "oozie"... I would think gun buffs would already know this term...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
You might as well make it a free for all, then. I'd love to count on society to behave themselves with their own guns. I guess the only way to reduce or prevent crimes is to go back to the old west days; enforce it with your own bullet. Counting on things like family values or upbringings have worked wonderfully in reducing crimes thus far...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon6.gif
If something like the Brady Bill is so devastating to the 2nd Amendment, why let it become law and stand? Where's the uproar to the Supreme Court? Try those congresswo/men who voted for gun control laws with treason then...
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Choua,
Why don't you ask a few of our Australian members what happened to crime rates regarding armed robbery and home invasions incidents in their country shortly after the cross the board firearms bans were introduced and criminals knew that they could enter a business or private residence virtually unopposed by the owners?
I know for a fact that the average response time for police to assist a 911 call in NYC is 20 minutes plenty of time for the cops to arrive and find my killer gone and put my body into a bag still warm. Your problem is that you are placing far too much trust in A) the likelyhood that violent crime will never happen to you and you are well protected B) That criminals actually obey and or respect the law. C) The ability of our governing body to resist the lure of absolute power, and what did we learn about absolute power in grade school, that it.....come on now I know you know this..............Yes that's right, It corrupts absolutely!!!
Most of the law abiding gun owners I know were raised with proper family values and a great respect for life, and the rights of others. Right now we are fighting to protect the very core of the ability to protect all constitutional rights which begins with the power to defend them with violence of action if neccessary. That is what the Second Ammendment is fundamentally about it is about the people being able to defend themselves against the corruption of their own governing body and what history has shown us is that where arms are regulated and eventually confiscated from individual possession (effectively removing the populous' ability to mount an armed insurrection) that totaliltarianism may and quite possibly will soon follow. Our odds of succeeding are already significantly reduced by the technological advantages of those who would likely defend a corrupted govt. and all we are fighting for is our right to maintain our small arms but as you have now pointed out maybe we should be fighting for equal access to significantly better weaponry? If you believe totalitarianism just couldn't possibly happen to us, here, today, because we are so advanced and enlightened then you were not paying attention in world history class and are not paying attention to current events either. We are not exempt or immune to the greed and ambition of those who crave power. It can happen here and it will if you don't wise up and take the steps to avoid it.
The phrase "The price of freedom is eternal vigiliance." Was coined as much about keeping an eye on the governing body (of which the founding fathers harboured a healthy skepticism of allowing too much control to) as it was about protection from foreign invaders.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Choua,
Why don't you ask a few of our Australian members what happened to crime rates regarding armed robbery and home invasions incidents in their country shortly after the cross the board firearms bans were introduced and criminals knew that they could enter a business or private residence virtually unopposed by the owners?
I know for a fact that the average response time for police to assist a 911 call in NYC is 20 minutes plenty of time for the cops to arrive and find my killer gone and put my body into a bag still warm. Your problem is that you are placing far too much trust in A) the likelyhood that violent crime will never happen to you and you are well protected B) That criminals actually obey and or respect the law. C) The ability of our governing body to resist the lure of absolute power, and what did we learn about absolute power in grade school, that it.....come on now I know you know this..............Yes that's right, It corrupts absolutely!!!
Most of the law abiding gun owners I know were raised with proper family values and a great respect for life, and the rights of others. Right now we are fighting to protect the very core of the ability to protect all constitutional rights which begins with the power to defend them with violence of action if neccessary. That is what the Second Ammendment is fundamentally about it is about the people being able to defend themselves against the corruption of their own governing body and what history has shown us is that where arms are regulated and eventually confiscated from individual possession (effectively removing the populous' ability to mount an armed insurrection) that totaliltarianism may and quite possibly will soon follow. Our odds of succeeding are already significantly reduced by the technological advantages of those who would likely defend a corrupted govt. and all we are fighting for is our right to maintain our small arms but as you have now pointed out maybe we should be fighting for equal access to significantly better weaponry? If you believe totalitarianism just couldn't possibly happen to us, here, today, because we are so advanced and enlightened then you were not paying attention in world history class and are not paying attention to current events either. We are not exempt or immune to the greed and ambition of those who crave power. It can happen here and it will if you don't wise up and take the steps to avoid it.
The phrase "The price of freedom is eternal vigiliance." Was coined as much about keeping an eye on the governing body (of which the founding fathers harboured a healthy skepticism of allowing too much control to) as it was about protection from foreign invaders.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
TSG,
I don't doubt the intentions of the 2nd Amendment, nor do I disagree that it's essential for citizens to arm themselves if they felt that the country was under threat from a corrupt leader. Like you've said, more often times than not, I'd wonder what would happen if there should come a situation where we need to revolt against a corrupt government, and the weapons we have are inefficient to do so.
Obviously, nobody knows for certain what the drafters of the Constitution had in mind when they sought the need for a provision for a militia or arming ordinary citizens. You can interpret the 2nd Amendment by citing sources from all viewpoints to make your point on personal arms or state militia guards, etc. But I'd reckon they figured that the in order to prevent someone from becoming another king, or if Britain back then decided to invade again, they needed a way for citizens to rebel, and the 2nd Amendment justified an armed country. Whether or not it applies to this day in age, no one's going to convince anyone else one way or the other. I'm not saying we can never plunge into a state of anarchy, but our government's taken quite a few measures to put themselves at scrutiny, and checks and balances were put in place, Constitution-wise, to prevent such things from happening.
I would agree that disarming law-abiding citizens across the board is not a good idea. But at the same token, it doesn't mean arming everyone is the only solution. Like someone else has stated before, maybe if all parents had the morals and common sense to raise their kids to respect everyone else around them and appreciate good social behavior, maybe we wouldn't be faced with career criminals or criminal behavior from those who fell through the cracks. But everyone knows obviously you will never have a utopia society...
What gets me about this issue is that I have a problem with people who predetermine that gun control and gun banning are one in the same, and that any legislation introduced to directly hold gun sellers and distributors accountable for selling illegally are struck down as another means of "gun control". If control hurts only law abiding citizens, then where's the enforcement against criminals? Where are they getting their guns? That's the loophole people who ARE genuinly trying to enforce the laws already in place are trying to do.
I also have a problem with the notion that the only way to prevent violent crimes from happening is if the victim has a gun. If people were suddenly legally justified to shoot someone if they felt threatened or otherwise, where does that put the legal limit on reasonable or warranted force? Preventing crimes by fear only works if the criminals fear being caught or otherwise outgunned. But in a violent crime, no victim is going to have any initial advantage if they're being attacked first...
You brought up the notion that absolute power corrupts absolutely. True. But do you also view having a gun as having power? People would tell you they feel safe when they carry a gun for protection. I would, too. But that will always mean people will be faced with a situation where poor judgment can get the better of themselves, even if they're law abiding and socially responsible with guns. The power they feel they have with a gun is, in itself, a dangerous thing.
There's no easy solution to solving crime, and that includes lifting bans on all guns. Like I said in my first post, right ideals, wrong approach...
TSG,
I don't doubt the intentions of the 2nd Amendment, nor do I disagree that it's essential for citizens to arm themselves if they felt that the country was under threat from a corrupt leader. Like you've said, more often times than not, I'd wonder what would happen if there should come a situation where we need to revolt against a corrupt government, and the weapons we have are inefficient to do so.
Obviously, nobody knows for certain what the drafters of the Constitution had in mind when they sought the need for a provision for a militia or arming ordinary citizens. You can interpret the 2nd Amendment by citing sources from all viewpoints to make your point on personal arms or state militia guards, etc. But I'd reckon they figured that the in order to prevent someone from becoming another king, or if Britain back then decided to invade again, they needed a way for citizens to rebel, and the 2nd Amendment justified an armed country. Whether or not it applies to this day in age, no one's going to convince anyone else one way or the other. I'm not saying we can never plunge into a state of anarchy, but our government's taken quite a few measures to put themselves at scrutiny, and checks and balances were put in place, Constitution-wise, to prevent such things from happening.
I would agree that disarming law-abiding citizens across the board is not a good idea. But at the same token, it doesn't mean arming everyone is the only solution. Like someone else has stated before, maybe if all parents had the morals and common sense to raise their kids to respect everyone else around them and appreciate good social behavior, maybe we wouldn't be faced with career criminals or criminal behavior from those who fell through the cracks. But everyone knows obviously you will never have a utopia society...
What gets me about this issue is that I have a problem with people who predetermine that gun control and gun banning are one in the same, and that any legislation introduced to directly hold gun sellers and distributors accountable for selling illegally are struck down as another means of "gun control". If control hurts only law abiding citizens, then where's the enforcement against criminals? Where are they getting their guns? That's the loophole people who ARE genuinly trying to enforce the laws already in place are trying to do.
I also have a problem with the notion that the only way to prevent violent crimes from happening is if the victim has a gun. If people were suddenly legally justified to shoot someone if they felt threatened or otherwise, where does that put the legal limit on reasonable or warranted force? Preventing crimes by fear only works if the criminals fear being caught or otherwise outgunned. But in a violent crime, no victim is going to have any initial advantage if they're being attacked first...
You brought up the notion that absolute power corrupts absolutely. True. But do you also view having a gun as having power? People would tell you they feel safe when they carry a gun for protection. I would, too. But that will always mean people will be faced with a situation where poor judgment can get the better of themselves, even if they're law abiding and socially responsible with guns. The power they feel they have with a gun is, in itself, a dangerous thing.
There's no easy solution to solving crime, and that includes lifting bans on all guns. Like I said in my first post, right ideals, wrong approach...
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
TSG,
I also have a problem with the notion that the only way to prevent violent crimes from happening is if the victim has a gun. If people were suddenly legally justified to shoot someone if they felt threatened or otherwise, where does that put the legal limit on reasonable or warranted force? Preventing crimes by fear only works if the criminals fear being caught or otherwise outgunned. But in a violent crime, no victim is going to have any initial advantage if they're being attacked first...
[/ QUOTE ]
i read this paragraph 3 times i was so shocked. you've already decided to be a victim. what do you expect? the tooth fairy to save you? the only way to stop violent crime is violent defense. cops don't stop crimes in progress with pretty please's. they do violence on your behalf, but you won't even do for yourself.
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
TSG,
I also have a problem with the notion that the only way to prevent violent crimes from happening is if the victim has a gun. If people were suddenly legally justified to shoot someone if they felt threatened or otherwise, where does that put the legal limit on reasonable or warranted force? Preventing crimes by fear only works if the criminals fear being caught or otherwise outgunned. But in a violent crime, no victim is going to have any initial advantage if they're being attacked first...
[/ QUOTE ]
i read this paragraph 3 times i was so shocked. you've already decided to be a victim. what do you expect? the tooth fairy to save you? the only way to stop violent crime is violent defense. cops don't stop crimes in progress with pretty please's. they do violence on your behalf, but you won't even do for yourself.
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
TSG,
What gets me about this issue is that I have a problem with people who predetermine that gun control and gun banning are one in the same, and that any legislation introduced to directly hold gun sellers and distributors accountable for selling illegally are struck down as another means of "gun control". If control hurts only law abiding citizens, then where's the enforcement against criminals? Where are they getting their guns? That's the loophole people who ARE genuinly trying to enforce the laws already in place are trying to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's what the would have you beleive. FFL sellers ARE held liable for their sales and tranfer of their firearms.
there is no "loophole". that's the terminology the anti-gun crowd uses like "assault rifle", "non sporting purpose" and "high capacity". they create these words to scare the public and misinform.
you're right, gun control laws only make it more difficult and costly for me to obtain my firearms. criminals, by their nature, steal what they want.
since gun control works so well explain to me why CA and NY, with the strictest laws in the country have the worst gun crime/homicide? better yet, washington DC has an all out ban on firearms yet the worst gun crime/homicide.
states with the least gun laws enjoy lower gun crimes/homicide than those that do.
[ QUOTE ]
FalconFX said:
TSG,
What gets me about this issue is that I have a problem with people who predetermine that gun control and gun banning are one in the same, and that any legislation introduced to directly hold gun sellers and distributors accountable for selling illegally are struck down as another means of "gun control". If control hurts only law abiding citizens, then where's the enforcement against criminals? Where are they getting their guns? That's the loophole people who ARE genuinly trying to enforce the laws already in place are trying to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
that's what the would have you beleive. FFL sellers ARE held liable for their sales and tranfer of their firearms.
there is no "loophole". that's the terminology the anti-gun crowd uses like "assault rifle", "non sporting purpose" and "high capacity". they create these words to scare the public and misinform.
you're right, gun control laws only make it more difficult and costly for me to obtain my firearms. criminals, by their nature, steal what they want.
since gun control works so well explain to me why CA and NY, with the strictest laws in the country have the worst gun crime/homicide? better yet, washington DC has an all out ban on firearms yet the worst gun crime/homicide.
states with the least gun laws enjoy lower gun crimes/homicide than those that do.
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Choua,
Look, this is what we mean by the ignorance of the anti-gun lobby. You are already stating things that you know absolutely nothing about A) while you are correct about no one hunting with an AK47 or an M16 you also don't seem to know that these weapons are fully automatic (machine guns) and are already covered by a Federal Ban which completely prohibits the ownership of any fully automatic weapon (machine gun) by anyone not in posession of a Class III license which is the most expensive, and difficult license for any individual to obtain, it requires a great deal of money and a complete and extensive background check to even begin the process of obtaining one. No one who hasn't been completely scrutinized to the point of harrassment possesses one of these licenses. And those who do are subject to an unannounced visit and inspection and multiple announced visits and inspections yearly, by federal agents, of the weapons held under that license to make sure that the license holder is always in compliance with the law.
However criminals have access to the weapons that you just read described through underground sources who do everything from smuggle them into the country to stealing them from our military arsenals and shipments. They are availiable to criminals and they are even sold at a huge discount over a firearm obtained through legitimate sources. In other words it isn't even worth it for a criminal to buy a firearm through the open market but we law abiding citizens continue to purchase our arms through much more expensive legitimate sources.
The point of this post and what we are trying to drive home to you is you CANNOT stop criminals from obtaining weapons with firearms laws, period (you can punish them for utilizing them in violent crimes by handing out the maximum sentences under the laws that are already in place if and when you catch them). They will continue to purchase and they already possess them through illegal means that do not obtain them legitimately. When polls were taken the ATF reported that less than one percent of firearms that were used in violent crimes were actually obtained from about many legitimate dealers. The legal industry is already nearly completely restricted and under constant regulation and supervision and still criminals find not very difficult ways to obtain them.
The politicians and judges do not punish violent crime because the statistics and repeat offenses serve the purpose of feeding their attempt to disarm the law abiding public by getting folks like you to believe that stricter gun control laws will end violent crime and it doesn't even put a dent in it. We are not saying arm the entire public (although Switzerland requires that every household has a firearm for national defense purposes and they have nearly 0 crime and a more literal sense of democracy than even we do) we are saying allow those responsible citizens who wish to exercise the right to possess what the constitution allows us to do so. Why do you think Law enforcement is so frustrated, they go after violent criminals that liberal judges keep releasing back into the public and that serves the Leftist agenda.
The Media and the "Liberal" Politicians and the Anti-gun lobby are lying to you and keeping you ignorant with misinformation because they need ignorant foot soldiers to fight their battle for them and unfortunately it's slowly been working. Gun control is slowly leading to confiscation by drilling small holes in our rights until individual ownership is so restricted it collapses and if you want to see a real free for all watch what happens when the 2nd ammendment is defeated. I truly pray we can regain the ground lost and keep the few rights we still have.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Choua,
Look, this is what we mean by the ignorance of the anti-gun lobby. You are already stating things that you know absolutely nothing about A) while you are correct about no one hunting with an AK47 or an M16 you also don't seem to know that these weapons are fully automatic (machine guns) and are already covered by a Federal Ban which completely prohibits the ownership of any fully automatic weapon (machine gun) by anyone not in posession of a Class III license which is the most expensive, and difficult license for any individual to obtain, it requires a great deal of money and a complete and extensive background check to even begin the process of obtaining one. No one who hasn't been completely scrutinized to the point of harrassment possesses one of these licenses. And those who do are subject to an unannounced visit and inspection and multiple announced visits and inspections yearly, by federal agents, of the weapons held under that license to make sure that the license holder is always in compliance with the law.
However criminals have access to the weapons that you just read described through underground sources who do everything from smuggle them into the country to stealing them from our military arsenals and shipments. They are availiable to criminals and they are even sold at a huge discount over a firearm obtained through legitimate sources. In other words it isn't even worth it for a criminal to buy a firearm through the open market but we law abiding citizens continue to purchase our arms through much more expensive legitimate sources.
The point of this post and what we are trying to drive home to you is you CANNOT stop criminals from obtaining weapons with firearms laws, period (you can punish them for utilizing them in violent crimes by handing out the maximum sentences under the laws that are already in place if and when you catch them). They will continue to purchase and they already possess them through illegal means that do not obtain them legitimately. When polls were taken the ATF reported that less than one percent of firearms that were used in violent crimes were actually obtained from about many legitimate dealers. The legal industry is already nearly completely restricted and under constant regulation and supervision and still criminals find not very difficult ways to obtain them.
The politicians and judges do not punish violent crime because the statistics and repeat offenses serve the purpose of feeding their attempt to disarm the law abiding public by getting folks like you to believe that stricter gun control laws will end violent crime and it doesn't even put a dent in it. We are not saying arm the entire public (although Switzerland requires that every household has a firearm for national defense purposes and they have nearly 0 crime and a more literal sense of democracy than even we do) we are saying allow those responsible citizens who wish to exercise the right to possess what the constitution allows us to do so. Why do you think Law enforcement is so frustrated, they go after violent criminals that liberal judges keep releasing back into the public and that serves the Leftist agenda.
The Media and the "Liberal" Politicians and the Anti-gun lobby are lying to you and keeping you ignorant with misinformation because they need ignorant foot soldiers to fight their battle for them and unfortunately it's slowly been working. Gun control is slowly leading to confiscation by drilling small holes in our rights until individual ownership is so restricted it collapses and if you want to see a real free for all watch what happens when the 2nd ammendment is defeated. I truly pray we can regain the ground lost and keep the few rights we still have.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
binky
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Wow, all those words. I didn't even read the whole bill; Didn't have to...
If Teddy's backing it, I know I won't like it.
After a while that just sinks into us in Massachusetts.
Wow, all those words. I didn't even read the whole bill; Didn't have to...
If Teddy's backing it, I know I won't like it.
After a while that just sinks into us in Massachusetts.
Floating Spots
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
I don't argue well, so I have been on the sidelines.
I will tell you that I was at one time mildly opposed to firearms.
I wasn't vocal back then, as I don't believe myself vocal now.
However, I had a 6 day period of time when at college that changed my stance forever.
I lived in off campus housing about a block away from 'campus' at a very small school in Michigan. The third weekend I was there, a gang came to the door (14 of them) telling us what they were going to do to us for throwing a brick through their window. They were threatening us with some nasty stuff and ultimately death. A neighbor, who we didn't even know, who was involved with the gang happened to stop in as a mediator of sorts. She settled things down and after then looked at our cars (they saw the car in our drive, turning around). Most of them became overly friendly and told us that the rival gang might be checking out our place. They then scared me even more than before by showing us the baseball bats, boards, knives, and guns they had brought over to use on us. They then told us we should get guns for ourselves to protect us from their rival gang.
Also, being a victim at the time (and listening to the neighbor) the three of us never called the police....
The next Saturday, they next door house was broken into.
The owner was beaten over the head until unconscious with the edge of a shovel and another blunt instrument. He was then dragged downstairs and left for dead. The robbers took what they wanted, packed it into his car, poured gasoline all over and torched the place. The owner awakened in the basement, with a broken arm and minus an eye, went upstairs to find his exit blocked. He managed to escape by breaking out an old coal deliver door and climb out. This was NOT gang related, it was judged to be RANDOM. As in, it was equal odds, it could have been US.
Discussion with the responding police was not helpful either. They said this was a much better part of town than it used to be. There were much worse places to be.
I then talked to a retired police officer who set me up with some information. I soon purchased a shotgun and learned skeet (as fun and good gun handling). This progressed to a handgun with training from some of the best out there (John Farnam and Massad Ayoob) as well as a training put on by a local range.
In my subsequential time in hell (at school) I had a least one incident where my body language and movements (I believe) scared off my possible attacker.
He never saw my firearm. I believe that the mental attitude that I would not become a victim made its way from me to him. If in certain cases all it takes is body language, than I thank God that I received firearms/not to be a victim training. All of my confidence came out of my training.
There were two other students robbed at gunpoint (one during the robbery by two assailants, where one openly asked the other to kill him anyway), two others at knife point, and one injured when cracked over the head with a glass bottle and then robbed.
There is only one incident that the police could have responded too (and possibly not in time). That is why I now belive in the second amendment. I know that it has saved me from something at least once since my awakening.
I don't argue well, so I have been on the sidelines.
I will tell you that I was at one time mildly opposed to firearms.
I wasn't vocal back then, as I don't believe myself vocal now.
However, I had a 6 day period of time when at college that changed my stance forever.
I lived in off campus housing about a block away from 'campus' at a very small school in Michigan. The third weekend I was there, a gang came to the door (14 of them) telling us what they were going to do to us for throwing a brick through their window. They were threatening us with some nasty stuff and ultimately death. A neighbor, who we didn't even know, who was involved with the gang happened to stop in as a mediator of sorts. She settled things down and after then looked at our cars (they saw the car in our drive, turning around). Most of them became overly friendly and told us that the rival gang might be checking out our place. They then scared me even more than before by showing us the baseball bats, boards, knives, and guns they had brought over to use on us. They then told us we should get guns for ourselves to protect us from their rival gang.
Also, being a victim at the time (and listening to the neighbor) the three of us never called the police....
The next Saturday, they next door house was broken into.
The owner was beaten over the head until unconscious with the edge of a shovel and another blunt instrument. He was then dragged downstairs and left for dead. The robbers took what they wanted, packed it into his car, poured gasoline all over and torched the place. The owner awakened in the basement, with a broken arm and minus an eye, went upstairs to find his exit blocked. He managed to escape by breaking out an old coal deliver door and climb out. This was NOT gang related, it was judged to be RANDOM. As in, it was equal odds, it could have been US.
Discussion with the responding police was not helpful either. They said this was a much better part of town than it used to be. There were much worse places to be.
I then talked to a retired police officer who set me up with some information. I soon purchased a shotgun and learned skeet (as fun and good gun handling). This progressed to a handgun with training from some of the best out there (John Farnam and Massad Ayoob) as well as a training put on by a local range.
In my subsequential time in hell (at school) I had a least one incident where my body language and movements (I believe) scared off my possible attacker.
He never saw my firearm. I believe that the mental attitude that I would not become a victim made its way from me to him. If in certain cases all it takes is body language, than I thank God that I received firearms/not to be a victim training. All of my confidence came out of my training.
There were two other students robbed at gunpoint (one during the robbery by two assailants, where one openly asked the other to kill him anyway), two others at knife point, and one injured when cracked over the head with a glass bottle and then robbed.
There is only one incident that the police could have responded too (and possibly not in time). That is why I now belive in the second amendment. I know that it has saved me from something at least once since my awakening.
binky
Flashlight Enthusiast
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Here is one example of the anti-gun results. Note that this isn't just some random street near Harvard; It's on campus, it's a very short street, and there is a campus police substation right there (but apparantly no criminal is afraid of the campus police). I don't mean near there, I mean there's a "campus po" station right there taking up 1/2 the length of the street.
IN Massachusetts:
1. Guns are illegal to possess on or even near a school campus without prior written permit from the campus authority. (And you're sure never going to get a CCW permit this is just for transporting unloaded!)
2. Stun guns are illegal state-wide.
3. Even a knife and pepper spray counts in the outlawed weapon category, so there's no defending yourself legally by using any mechanisms or ammunition.
(as I read the laws here)
But apparently criminals don't prefer to operate within the legal restrictions, only the folks who generally obey laws anyway comply with the restrictions. Strange and amazing thing, eh?
The result is that the criminals are safe to rob anyone anywhere they want to, even right outside a police station. (Unless they're unfortunate & select another criminal carrying a gun.) So they hunt freely and do exactly that.
Draw your own conclusion, of course.
Campus police email begins below.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
---------------------
COMMUNITY ADVISORY
This notice is part of the Department's ongoing effort to provide community awareness and to enhance public safety. Dissemination of community advisories is required by federal law.
Armed Robbery
DeWolfe Street
This advisory contains information just received from the Cambridge Police Department.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003 at 2:12 AM a male, not affiliated with the University, was walking down DeWolfe Street when two young males approached him. One of the suspects said "empty your pockets" while one of the suspects put a handgun to the victim's head. The victim struggled with the suspects and was struck with the gun and knocked to the ground. The suspects then took money and personal objects from the victim and fled.
The victim described one suspect as a white male, 18-22 years of age, 6 feet tall, wearing a gray fleece jacket with a hood. The victim described the other suspect as a black male, 18-22 years of age, 6 feet tall, wearing a black jacket with a hood.
The HUPD reminds you to be aware of your surroundings at all times, paying particular attention when you are walking in the DeWolfe Street area. Whenever possible, students, faculty and staff should utilize the shuttle vans and buses and the walking escort. If at any time you observe any suspicious activity, please notify the Harvard University Police Department at [number removed].
If anyone has any information regarding this incident, please contact the Cambridge Police Department, Criminal Investigation Unit, at [number removed].
We will update this advisory if more specific information becomes available.
Please post, copy and distribute [...]
Here is one example of the anti-gun results. Note that this isn't just some random street near Harvard; It's on campus, it's a very short street, and there is a campus police substation right there (but apparantly no criminal is afraid of the campus police). I don't mean near there, I mean there's a "campus po" station right there taking up 1/2 the length of the street.
IN Massachusetts:
1. Guns are illegal to possess on or even near a school campus without prior written permit from the campus authority. (And you're sure never going to get a CCW permit this is just for transporting unloaded!)
2. Stun guns are illegal state-wide.
3. Even a knife and pepper spray counts in the outlawed weapon category, so there's no defending yourself legally by using any mechanisms or ammunition.
(as I read the laws here)
But apparently criminals don't prefer to operate within the legal restrictions, only the folks who generally obey laws anyway comply with the restrictions. Strange and amazing thing, eh?
The result is that the criminals are safe to rob anyone anywhere they want to, even right outside a police station. (Unless they're unfortunate & select another criminal carrying a gun.) So they hunt freely and do exactly that.
Draw your own conclusion, of course.
Campus police email begins below.
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
---------------------
COMMUNITY ADVISORY
This notice is part of the Department's ongoing effort to provide community awareness and to enhance public safety. Dissemination of community advisories is required by federal law.
Armed Robbery
DeWolfe Street
This advisory contains information just received from the Cambridge Police Department.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003 at 2:12 AM a male, not affiliated with the University, was walking down DeWolfe Street when two young males approached him. One of the suspects said "empty your pockets" while one of the suspects put a handgun to the victim's head. The victim struggled with the suspects and was struck with the gun and knocked to the ground. The suspects then took money and personal objects from the victim and fled.
The victim described one suspect as a white male, 18-22 years of age, 6 feet tall, wearing a gray fleece jacket with a hood. The victim described the other suspect as a black male, 18-22 years of age, 6 feet tall, wearing a black jacket with a hood.
The HUPD reminds you to be aware of your surroundings at all times, paying particular attention when you are walking in the DeWolfe Street area. Whenever possible, students, faculty and staff should utilize the shuttle vans and buses and the walking escort. If at any time you observe any suspicious activity, please notify the Harvard University Police Department at [number removed].
If anyone has any information regarding this incident, please contact the Cambridge Police Department, Criminal Investigation Unit, at [number removed].
We will update this advisory if more specific information becomes available.
Please post, copy and distribute [...]
ledfanfromjuno
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
FalxonX said gun owners are wrong for assuming that gun control advocates are the same as gun ban advocates and that all they want is partial control to bring about normalcy to this crime ridden society. I just finished watching a documentary seminar part of which delved into part of the history of gun control in the United States. In particular it quoted with sources for the quotes many people from the early 1900's to the present, many peoples' accidental slips in speach in the public arena. I will put the video at the end of this. Here's the quotes summarized by my memory:
1. Janet Reno said that gun waiting periods are only a step not an end in themselves. Gun registries are only a step. The ultimate goal, the prize is the total abolition of gun ownership in America.
2. President Bill Clinton said that ..... then we can get on with the confiscation and burning of guns instead of the selling of these harmful instruments in our Great country.
3. Sarah Brady said ...... we can not achieve our goal of a socialist America without first the complete disarmament of all those in America who might resist.
4. Lenin said .... one person with a gun can control 100 disarmed citizens.
5. A senator from I believe Nebraska, whose name is on the videotape, said ... we need to ban ALL gun ownership in America.
6. The oklahoma Federal building bombing was a media controlled event to spin the blame onto militias in America and make all gun owners in America to look like criminals who need to be disarmed. Iraqi backed muslims helped in shearing off the pillars of the building with c4 and the dump site for the building's remains was guarded so noone with any credibility could prove that the militia was not involved.
7. Hitler said the same thing you gun control advocates are saying when he got full gun registration passed in Germany before he invaded Poland. He said that today for the first time in history a country has achieved full gun registration. Now our streets will be safer, now our police will be more efficient. And the world will learn from our example and copy us in the future.
Hitler also said that if you lie enough the people will eventually believe you. If you lie give a big lie for it's harder for the people to believe that you would lie about something so big.
Hitler lied about this being the first time a nation had achieved full gun registration. In biblical times of old testament Israel, when one of the pagan nations enslaved Israel and I forget which one I've read so much of the bible and the supporting commentaries, the pagan nation banned posession of ALL weapons for Israelis. They even banned blacksmiths from existing in Israel. No axes no nothing. It's an old old very old tactic. As is forced relocation of conquered peoples so that they can't rebel in an unfamiliar land etc.
8. The communist russian spy shot in America I believe around 1919 was carrying his little black book with the list of things that had to be done by him to the Americans in order to bring about world communist domination. The list became famous back then. It mentioned things like, corrupt the youth and destroy their connections to Christianity, create a soft attittude towards the punishment of crime by government, create obsession in the people with sex and sports and get their mind off the government, on and on it went until the last thing on the list. It was ... totally disarm the citizenry to eliminate all potential resistance.
Just what Sarah Brady said.
By the way ... Rockefeller financed Hitler with money before the outset of the war to set him up in power... an interesting aside in world history not spoken of in public high school... public indoctrination school I should say.
8. So FalconX said why don't you trust. .... You're damn right I don't trust these *******s... They don't deserve to be trusted. They basically have come out and said with their own mouths .... "look we are going to and want to kill you... you are the obstacle to what we want in this country America... our country.... we are not your elected servants.... you are the parasite we rule over that pollutes our beloved planet."
I'd be stupid to believe them after they said that.
It was tape seminar part 5 of the creation seminar series. "evolution- the foundation for communism, naziism, socialism, and the new world order"
You may not agree with the title etc. But it did have a large section on gun control with displayed quotes and their sources... and dates. The creation part is not important to this discussion. I'm just saying you can find all the quotes and their sources in the video which he displayes as text on the television with the source.
This pastor is a rabid pro gun advocate. It's very nice to hear his recount of the gun control battle in America.
http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=products&grp=1
This tape may have the same stuff I don't know since I didn't buy it.
http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=products&specific=jnrpcoi8
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
FalxonX said gun owners are wrong for assuming that gun control advocates are the same as gun ban advocates and that all they want is partial control to bring about normalcy to this crime ridden society. I just finished watching a documentary seminar part of which delved into part of the history of gun control in the United States. In particular it quoted with sources for the quotes many people from the early 1900's to the present, many peoples' accidental slips in speach in the public arena. I will put the video at the end of this. Here's the quotes summarized by my memory:
1. Janet Reno said that gun waiting periods are only a step not an end in themselves. Gun registries are only a step. The ultimate goal, the prize is the total abolition of gun ownership in America.
2. President Bill Clinton said that ..... then we can get on with the confiscation and burning of guns instead of the selling of these harmful instruments in our Great country.
3. Sarah Brady said ...... we can not achieve our goal of a socialist America without first the complete disarmament of all those in America who might resist.
4. Lenin said .... one person with a gun can control 100 disarmed citizens.
5. A senator from I believe Nebraska, whose name is on the videotape, said ... we need to ban ALL gun ownership in America.
6. The oklahoma Federal building bombing was a media controlled event to spin the blame onto militias in America and make all gun owners in America to look like criminals who need to be disarmed. Iraqi backed muslims helped in shearing off the pillars of the building with c4 and the dump site for the building's remains was guarded so noone with any credibility could prove that the militia was not involved.
7. Hitler said the same thing you gun control advocates are saying when he got full gun registration passed in Germany before he invaded Poland. He said that today for the first time in history a country has achieved full gun registration. Now our streets will be safer, now our police will be more efficient. And the world will learn from our example and copy us in the future.
Hitler also said that if you lie enough the people will eventually believe you. If you lie give a big lie for it's harder for the people to believe that you would lie about something so big.
Hitler lied about this being the first time a nation had achieved full gun registration. In biblical times of old testament Israel, when one of the pagan nations enslaved Israel and I forget which one I've read so much of the bible and the supporting commentaries, the pagan nation banned posession of ALL weapons for Israelis. They even banned blacksmiths from existing in Israel. No axes no nothing. It's an old old very old tactic. As is forced relocation of conquered peoples so that they can't rebel in an unfamiliar land etc.
8. The communist russian spy shot in America I believe around 1919 was carrying his little black book with the list of things that had to be done by him to the Americans in order to bring about world communist domination. The list became famous back then. It mentioned things like, corrupt the youth and destroy their connections to Christianity, create a soft attittude towards the punishment of crime by government, create obsession in the people with sex and sports and get their mind off the government, on and on it went until the last thing on the list. It was ... totally disarm the citizenry to eliminate all potential resistance.
Just what Sarah Brady said.
By the way ... Rockefeller financed Hitler with money before the outset of the war to set him up in power... an interesting aside in world history not spoken of in public high school... public indoctrination school I should say.
8. So FalconX said why don't you trust. .... You're damn right I don't trust these *******s... They don't deserve to be trusted. They basically have come out and said with their own mouths .... "look we are going to and want to kill you... you are the obstacle to what we want in this country America... our country.... we are not your elected servants.... you are the parasite we rule over that pollutes our beloved planet."
I'd be stupid to believe them after they said that.
It was tape seminar part 5 of the creation seminar series. "evolution- the foundation for communism, naziism, socialism, and the new world order"
You may not agree with the title etc. But it did have a large section on gun control with displayed quotes and their sources... and dates. The creation part is not important to this discussion. I'm just saying you can find all the quotes and their sources in the video which he displayes as text on the television with the source.
This pastor is a rabid pro gun advocate. It's very nice to hear his recount of the gun control battle in America.
http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=products&grp=1
This tape may have the same stuff I don't know since I didn't buy it.
http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=products&specific=jnrpcoi8
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
ledfanfromjuno
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON, D. C.
UNDER SECRETARY
March 3, 1995
Ms. Tanya K. Metaska
Executive Director
Institute for Legislative Action
National Rifle Association of America
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, Virginia 22030-7400
Dear Ms. Metaska:
This week, The National Rifle Association, in a full
page advertisement in the Washington Post and USA Today
vilified the brave Treasury agents who serve the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The ad profoundly
misrepresented ATF, its agents, and its mission -- even the
photo is of paid models and not ATF agents. ATF agents and
all of law enforcement carrying out crime fighting
legislation deserve public gratitude, not public contempt.
The advertisement alludes darkly to ATF's "threat to
civil liberties," "contempt for civil rights," and a
"tyrannical record of misconduct and abuse of power." Allow
me to provide the truth about ATF's record. Of the over
10,000 search warrants served by ATF agents in the last
decade, not one has led to any civil court to render any
adverse judgements for constitutional violations. Not one.
While the NRA spends lavishly on ads to fight ATF, ATF
agents put their lives on the line to fight crime and to
protect our communities and our citizens' property from
armed criminals. Since 1986, the more than 6,000 armed
career criminals and armed drug traffickers ATF brought to
justice have been sentenced to more than 55,000 years in
prison. Taking these felons off our streets has, by some
estimates, prevented over 4 million crimes and saved
countless lives and dollars. ATF agents make America safer.
Your true target, of course, is President Clinton's
landmark firearms legislation, including the Brady Law and
the Assault Weapons Ban. The great majority of Americans
stand with law enforcement in supporting sensible firearms
laws. The NRA should join them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-2-
The NRA leadership may choose to oppose moderate,
reasonable firearms laws. But it is wrong to single out for
abuse the courageous agents who enforce laws championed by
the President and duly enacted by the people's elected
representatives. Rather than casting about for villains, the
NRA should join the American public and a vast majority of
your members in recognizing and praising the men and women
who risk their lives to protect public safety.
Sincerely,
(signed)
Ronald K. Noble
Under Secretary
(Enforcement)
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/treasury.html#TOP
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON, D. C.
UNDER SECRETARY
March 3, 1995
Ms. Tanya K. Metaska
Executive Director
Institute for Legislative Action
National Rifle Association of America
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, Virginia 22030-7400
Dear Ms. Metaska:
This week, The National Rifle Association, in a full
page advertisement in the Washington Post and USA Today
vilified the brave Treasury agents who serve the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The ad profoundly
misrepresented ATF, its agents, and its mission -- even the
photo is of paid models and not ATF agents. ATF agents and
all of law enforcement carrying out crime fighting
legislation deserve public gratitude, not public contempt.
The advertisement alludes darkly to ATF's "threat
civil liberties," "contempt for civil rights," and a
"tyrannical record of misconduct and abuse of power." Allow
me to provide the truth about ATF's record. Of the over
10,000 search warrants served by ATF agents in the last
decade, not one has led to any civil court to render any
adverse judgements for constitutional violations. Not one.
While the NRA spends lavishly on ads to fight ATF, ATF
agents put their lives on the line to fight crime and to
protect our communities and our citizens' property from
armed criminals. Since 1986, the more than 6,000 armed
career criminals and armed drug traffickers ATF brought to
justice have been sentenced to more than 55,000 years in
prison. Taking these felons off our streets has, by some
estimates, prevented over 4 million crimes and saved
countless lives and dollars. ATF agents make America safer.
Your true target, of course, is President Clinton's
landmark firearms legislation, including the Brady Law and
the Assault Weapons Ban. The great majority of Americans
stand with law enforcement in supporting sensible firearms
laws. The NRA should join them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-2-
The NRA leadership may choose to oppose moderate,
reasonable firearms laws. But it is wrong to single out for
abuse the courageous agents who enforce laws championed by
the President and duly enacted by the people's elected
representatives. Rather than casting about for villains, the
NRA should join the American public and a vast majority of
your members in recognizing and praising the men and women
who risk their lives to protect public safety.
Sincerely,
(signed)
Ronald K. Noble
Under Secretary
(Enforcement)
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/treasury.html#TOP
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
ledfanfromjuno
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
Abuses of the BATF
Strange Things BATF Agents Do
Agent Points Gun at Man's Head in Tavern
As reported in the Milwaukee Sentinal, Milwaukee, Wi. on March 9, 1995:
An agent of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was assigned to administrative duty Wednesday pending the outcome of an internal investigation into allegations he held a gun to the head of a man in a downtown tavern, an ATF spokesman said.
The 43 year-old agent appeared in the district attourney's office Tuesday, but no charges had been issued Wednesday.
The agent allegedly threatened a man at the Gas-Lite tavern, 775 N. Jackson St., Monday evening. The agent was not arrested.
The agency's Office of inspection is investigating the incident, said Jim Kuboushek, an ATF spokesman in St. Paul, Minn.
Agents Play Russian Roulette
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: [email protected] (Kenneth C. Mitchell)
Subject: BATF agent kills another BATF agent
Message-ID:
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:49:19 GMT
{{Summary of news articles about a fatal game of Russian Roulette on the part of two BATF agents.}}
Agents Harass non-FFL Surplus Store
{{excerpted}}
From: [email protected] (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: BATF harasses non-FFL surplus store.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 03:50:21 PST
"Stephen Grant writes:
>I just heard an interesting story.
>There is a local army/navy surplus store that sells ammo and various
>non-PC items like folding SKS stocks.
>Last week, the BATF came into the store and told the owner that if
>they "didn't get rid of" the SKS stocks and some non-PC literature
>(10/22 exotic weapon system-like books) that they would "shut them down".
>They also had the owner pull all inert grenade shells so they
>could be inspected/inventoried.
>I wasn't aware that selling SKS stocks was illegal. Nor was I
>aware that the first amendment was repealed. What next?"
BATF Raid on Auto Parts Store in Atlanta
From: [email protected] (John De Armond)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 93 06:29:10 GMT
On the BATF front, they've been at it again here in Atlanta. Friday night the BATF led an armed assault on a car parts store here in Atlanta to recover some allegedly stolen TIRES. That's right, automobile tires. The raid involved over 75 BATF goons. This time they were in full gestapo uniform including the black uniforms and helmets that were dead ringers for the WWII German NAZI helmets. I couldn't tell from the TV coverage whether they had their SS arm bands. One of the TV reporters asked a BATF spokesman why the obvious excessive use of force was necessary. He replied "Better safe than sorry." Gotta watch out for those evil assault white sidewalls! Still unanswered was why the BATF was involved in what could at most be a Treasury and/or an FBI matter. I guess the BATF has become Comendante Reno's dirty tricks squad.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
Georgia Man Bankrupted
-a man in Georgia who applied for a Federal Firearms License
(FFL) because he wanted to sell one or two guns at gun-shows
per year. BATF told him IN WRITING that he didn't need such
a license; the next time he sold a gun at a gun show, it
was to a BATF officer who arrested him for "dealing in
firearms without a license". It took a few years and
literally all the money he had to get to a Federal court,
where the judge threw the case out of court with prejudice
and publicly reprimanded the BATF. He won, but was
bankrupt.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
Man Shot in Bathtub
-a no-knock raid in Michigan, based on an anonymous tip,
in which BATF and other law-enforcement officials burst
into a house WITHOUT ANY IDENTIFICATION and shot a
man in his bathtub. The "tip", claiming illegal manufacture
of firearms, proved to be false. The householder remained
in intensive care for some time and never fully recovered
from being shot by Federal and local law enforcement
officials.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
BATF Raid of California Gun Show
-a BATF 'raid' of a California gun show (San Jose, I believe)
during which every single person at the show was ordered
to line up against a wall to be photographed. Some were
searched and pushed around; no arrests were made.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
GOA Defends Pennsylvania State Trooper
Gun Owners of America takes on individual cases, depending on the situation.
GOA successfully defended a Pennsylvania State Trooper, in the last 4 years, against absurd BATF claims of "illegal possession of a machinegun".
The police officer consulted with BATF in reference to sending his legally-owned AR-15 back to Colt, because the rifle "doubled" from time to time. (Doubling is when a firearm fires two shots with one operation of the trigger; it indicates wear in the trigger group and/or disconnector.)
Following BATF's advice, the officer shipped it to Colt. BATF intercepted the package, tested the rifle until it fired two shots as a result of one operation of the trigger and then arrested the officer for "illegal possession of an unregistered machinegun".
GOA members provided money to get a legal team on the case; once again, a Federal judge threw a BATF case out with prejudice and lectured the Federal officials from the bench on the gross inappropriateness of their behavior.
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/strange.html#GEORGIAMAN
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Abuses of the BATF
Strange Things BATF Agents Do
Agent Points Gun at Man's Head in Tavern
As reported in the Milwaukee Sentinal, Milwaukee, Wi. on March 9, 1995:
An agent of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was assigned to administrative duty Wednesday pending the outcome of an internal investigation into allegations he held a gun to the head of a man in a downtown tavern, an ATF spokesman said.
The 43 year-old agent appeared in the district attourney's office Tuesday, but no charges had been issued Wednesday.
The agent allegedly threatened a man at the Gas-Lite tavern, 775 N. Jackson St., Monday evening. The agent was not arrested.
The agency's Office of inspection is investigating the incident, said Jim Kuboushek, an ATF spokesman in St. Paul, Minn.
Agents Play Russian Roulette
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: [email protected] (Kenneth C. Mitchell)
Subject: BATF agent kills another BATF agent
Message-ID:
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:49:19 GMT
{{Summary of news articles about a fatal game of Russian Roulette on the part of two BATF agents.}}
Agents Harass non-FFL Surplus Store
{{excerpted}}
From: [email protected] (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: BATF harasses non-FFL surplus store.
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 03:50:21 PST
"Stephen Grant writes:
>I just heard an interesting story.
>There is a local army/navy surplus store that sells ammo and various
>non-PC items like folding SKS stocks.
>Last week, the BATF came into the store and told the owner that if
>they "didn't get rid of" the SKS stocks and some non-PC literature
>(10/22 exotic weapon system-like books) that they would "shut them down".
>They also had the owner pull all inert grenade shells so they
>could be inspected/inventoried.
>I wasn't aware that selling SKS stocks was illegal. Nor was I
>aware that the first amendment was repealed. What next?"
BATF Raid on Auto Parts Store in Atlanta
From: [email protected] (John De Armond)
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 93 06:29:10 GMT
On the BATF front, they've been at it again here in Atlanta. Friday night the BATF led an armed assault on a car parts store here in Atlanta to recover some allegedly stolen TIRES. That's right, automobile tires. The raid involved over 75 BATF goons. This time they were in full gestapo uniform including the black uniforms and helmets that were dead ringers for the WWII German NAZI helmets. I couldn't tell from the TV coverage whether they had their SS arm bands. One of the TV reporters asked a BATF spokesman why the obvious excessive use of force was necessary. He replied "Better safe than sorry." Gotta watch out for those evil assault white sidewalls! Still unanswered was why the BATF was involved in what could at most be a Treasury and/or an FBI matter. I guess the BATF has become Comendante Reno's dirty tricks squad.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
Georgia Man Bankrupted
-a man in Georgia who applied for a Federal Firearms License
(FFL) because he wanted to sell one or two guns at gun-shows
per year. BATF told him IN WRITING that he didn't need such
a license; the next time he sold a gun at a gun show, it
was to a BATF officer who arrested him for "dealing in
firearms without a license". It took a few years and
literally all the money he had to get to a Federal court,
where the judge threw the case out of court with prejudice
and publicly reprimanded the BATF. He won, but was
bankrupt.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
Man Shot in Bathtub
-a no-knock raid in Michigan, based on an anonymous tip,
in which BATF and other law-enforcement officials burst
into a house WITHOUT ANY IDENTIFICATION and shot a
man in his bathtub. The "tip", claiming illegal manufacture
of firearms, proved to be false. The householder remained
in intensive care for some time and never fully recovered
from being shot by Federal and local law enforcement
officials.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
BATF Raid of California Gun Show
-a BATF 'raid' of a California gun show (San Jose, I believe)
during which every single person at the show was ordered
to line up against a wall to be photographed. Some were
searched and pushed around; no arrests were made.
BATF Abuses From the 70s
GOA Defends Pennsylvania State Trooper
Gun Owners of America takes on individual cases, depending on the situation.
GOA successfully defended a Pennsylvania State Trooper, in the last 4 years, against absurd BATF claims of "illegal possession of a machinegun".
The police officer consulted with BATF in reference to sending his legally-owned AR-15 back to Colt, because the rifle "doubled" from time to time. (Doubling is when a firearm fires two shots with one operation of the trigger; it indicates wear in the trigger group and/or disconnector.)
Following BATF's advice, the officer shipped it to Colt. BATF intercepted the package, tested the rifle until it fired two shots as a result of one operation of the trigger and then arrested the officer for "illegal possession of an unregistered machinegun".
GOA members provided money to get a legal team on the case; once again, a Federal judge threw a BATF case out with prejudice and lectured the Federal officials from the bench on the gross inappropriateness of their behavior.
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/strange.html#GEORGIAMAN
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
ledfanfromjuno
Enlightened
Re: New fed bill todestroy 2nd amend for home secu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No attempt is made to arrange these incidents by importance. They are merely listed as received.
The BATF reveals major problems in the NFA branch. Lost forms and perjured testimony concerning the accuracy of NFA registration information. A web page with the complete paper trail is found here.
An old man with a bolt-action rifle was shot and killed by the BATF in a dawn raid January 2001.
An FFL in Mesa, AZ had his business trashed by BATF agents without a warrant or an arrest, for the "crime" of not having a $100 local permit.
John Ross, author of Unintended Consequences is now being harrassed by BATF agents as a result of his book.
Bob Stewart, maker of a legal gun parts kit, is arrested by the BATF. An editorial account of his first day in court contains a lot of judicial misinterpretation.
A complete set of news items related to this case is here.
Prepare for Y2K, get a visit from the Brute Squad
Desperate F-Troop In South Florida
Gun Shop Owner 'commits suicide' in raid. Yeah. Right.
F-Troop loses another case, this time in Birrmingham, AL
A decorated vet fights the BATF
David Scott (Spudgun Confiscation)
Al Woodbridge
Another Al Woodbridge article.
BATF Cover-Up Results In Charges
Colorado Springs FFL Crackdown
Monique Montgomery
Bert Grant (Yakima Brewery)
Excerpt From Reason Magazine Article
Washington Libertarian Article
Military Museum Raided
Louis & Kimberly Katona
Bob Hennan
Harry & Teresa Lamplugh (and three cats)
53-year-old-man in Clifton, New Jersey
Pillar of Community Paralyzed for Life
Ron & Elaine Miller
Franklin Arms (Las Cruces, New Mexico)
Janice Hart
McAlvany Intelligence Advisor Article
American Firearms Industry Article
Del & Melissa Knudson
Johnnie Lawmaster
Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge)
Early Summary of Randy Weaver Incident
Libernet Article on Randy Weaver Incident
An article on the Weaver Incident in Uncommon Sense
A report of FBI disciplinary actions with respect to the Weaver incident, as published in Uncommon Sense
Secret Government Report on the Ruby Ridge Incident
Assassin Horiuchi was a good little Nazi, sez Judge
James Roy Mullins
Kerby Ferris
Traders Gun Shop
Hilda Weiss
Branch Davidian Massacre (David Koresh)
Recent news items on the Waco Massacre
Click here to download the House Report on the Waco Massacre.
Another webpage concering the Waco Massacre.
Second Amendment Foundation page in Waco.
Ian Goddard page on Waco.
Jubilee page on Waco.
Dallas News series of special reports on Waco.
BATF storm empty house in Parma, OH
Joint BATF/USCS Goatscrew in California (Eagle Exim)
BATF and SWAT team beat up on bus full of paintball players
BATF and local Police terrorize a family of four in the St. Louis area
The Georgia Militia 'Scare' brought to you by the BATF
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/individ.html#TOP
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
If you can still think there can be any peace with gun control minded people after going to this site and viewing the actions of their babychild federal agency then you deserve what is coming to you... FULL GUN BANNIG AND CONFISCATION....
It is only a shame that nothing can truly be done to eliminate the people from government office and agency positions who are raping the country from its constitution and pissing on the bill of rights by promoting crime to make the bill of rights look like an outdated document that doesn't work in modern crime ridden society. If the original Americans were alive today, they'd shoot and hang every last one of them... there'd be no debate..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No attempt is made to arrange these incidents by importance. They are merely listed as received.
The BATF reveals major problems in the NFA branch. Lost forms and perjured testimony concerning the accuracy of NFA registration information. A web page with the complete paper trail is found here.
An old man with a bolt-action rifle was shot and killed by the BATF in a dawn raid January 2001.
An FFL in Mesa, AZ had his business trashed by BATF agents without a warrant or an arrest, for the "crime" of not having a $100 local permit.
John Ross, author of Unintended Consequences is now being harrassed by BATF agents as a result of his book.
Bob Stewart, maker of a legal gun parts kit, is arrested by the BATF. An editorial account of his first day in court contains a lot of judicial misinterpretation.
A complete set of news items related to this case is here.
Prepare for Y2K, get a visit from the Brute Squad
Desperate F-Troop In South Florida
Gun Shop Owner 'commits suicide' in raid. Yeah. Right.
F-Troop loses another case, this time in Birrmingham, AL
A decorated vet fights the BATF
David Scott (Spudgun Confiscation)
Al Woodbridge
Another Al Woodbridge article.
BATF Cover-Up Results In Charges
Colorado Springs FFL Crackdown
Monique Montgomery
Bert Grant (Yakima Brewery)
Excerpt From Reason Magazine Article
Washington Libertarian Article
Military Museum Raided
Louis & Kimberly Katona
Bob Hennan
Harry & Teresa Lamplugh (and three cats)
53-year-old-man in Clifton, New Jersey
Pillar of Community Paralyzed for Life
Ron & Elaine Miller
Franklin Arms (Las Cruces, New Mexico)
Janice Hart
McAlvany Intelligence Advisor Article
American Firearms Industry Article
Del & Melissa Knudson
Johnnie Lawmaster
Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge)
Early Summary of Randy Weaver Incident
Libernet Article on Randy Weaver Incident
An article on the Weaver Incident in Uncommon Sense
A report of FBI disciplinary actions with respect to the Weaver incident, as published in Uncommon Sense
Secret Government Report on the Ruby Ridge Incident
Assassin Horiuchi was a good little Nazi, sez Judge
James Roy Mullins
Kerby Ferris
Traders Gun Shop
Hilda Weiss
Branch Davidian Massacre (David Koresh)
Recent news items on the Waco Massacre
Click here to download the House Report on the Waco Massacre.
Another webpage concering the Waco Massacre.
Second Amendment Foundation page in Waco.
Ian Goddard page on Waco.
Jubilee page on Waco.
Dallas News series of special reports on Waco.
BATF storm empty house in Parma, OH
Joint BATF/USCS Goatscrew in California (Eagle Exim)
BATF and SWAT team beat up on bus full of paintball players
BATF and local Police terrorize a family of four in the St. Louis area
The Georgia Militia 'Scare' brought to you by the BATF
http://www.elfie.org/~croaker/individ.html#TOP
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
If you can still think there can be any peace with gun control minded people after going to this site and viewing the actions of their babychild federal agency then you deserve what is coming to you... FULL GUN BANNIG AND CONFISCATION....
It is only a shame that nothing can truly be done to eliminate the people from government office and agency positions who are raping the country from its constitution and pissing on the bill of rights by promoting crime to make the bill of rights look like an outdated document that doesn't work in modern crime ridden society. If the original Americans were alive today, they'd shoot and hang every last one of them... there'd be no debate..
