Noobie with a Questy

[adamdude04]

Hello All,
I have been a "lurker" for about a year now.. I often search on google for anything I ever need to know (I spend rougly 1hr a night just searching for some sort of information..) and it's a good way for me to learn!

I'm a very logical thinker and currently living in Colorado. And actually this forum was the starting point of wanting to do a HID/Flashlight conversion! I'm all for brighter as I camp a lot. I once had an idea to use two HID kits to make portable lamps..but after that research learned HID bulbs don't like to be pointed up at the sky. They perfer the horizontal lifestyle..

But one thing I've been searching for, for the last few days is about HIDs and the housing they are placed in.

I currently have HIDs installed in my Bronco for the headlights. I used 1" pin-stripe, to box in 2" of the outter lense to clean up some excess glare. Also adjusted them properly per the 5x25' rule.

Currently I just bought some Hella 500 Off road/Driving lights and am waiting for my 55w HID kit to arrive in the mail. After extensive research I've found two interesting things..

Parabolic vs Free-Form reflections - What's the true difference? From what I've read, Free-Form uses the back reflector to complety focus the beam. Parabolic uses the front lense to aim the light...

So between the two, which one is better for HID use to get the most usable lumens? I would assume the Parabolic as the light off the HID bulb would have to hit the lens regardless and that would better project the light with less scatter due to how much further away the bulb sits from the back reflector. Is this correct?

Another thing I saw on one thread was a person who used a simple metal washer or two to help bring the HID bulb back to where naturally a Halogen bulb would sit.. anyone have any thoughts on this? Would this work in helping the HID bulb project its light better as if it was a Halogen bulb?

And what thread can't be without pictures?!

Thanks guys!

 

[DM51]

Welcome to CPF, adamdude04.

I'm a very logical thinker

Posting this in the Non-Flashlight section was not very logical, LOL. I'll move it to HID for you.

Please could you resize your photos to comply with Rule 3 - the max allowed size is 800 x 800 pixels.

 

[John_Galt]

HID bulbs in halogen Reflectors are illegal. See here: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html

Take them out, now, and get some real quality bulbs. Also change the stock wiring harness for relays to the headlamps, to minimize the length of wiring that the current needs to flow through, to minimize voltage drop and maximize output.

 

[DM51]

Thanks, JG. I didn't read far enough to see that this in fact belongs in Automotive - I moved it here from "Beyond Flashlights/ Other". Moving it again now.

@ OP: as John Galt says, these conversion kits are illegal.

 

[adamdude04]

Hmm..was looking for answers not what laws apply and don't apply..

They are "illegal" just like colorados stupid law that you can't lend your vaccume to your neighbor on sundays. (seriously, that's a law).

ANYWHO..so I assume I should ditch this account and find another forum online where I could actually have a decent conversation in finding the answer to a few questions?

*sorry about the 800x800 photo rule..each forum is different! -Thanks for the heads up*

 

[-Virgil-]

"HID kits" in halogen-bulb headlamps (any kit, any headlamp, any vehicle) do not work safely or effectively, which is why they are illegal. See http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html .

There are good glass/metal H4 export-spec headlights made for that year range of Bronco/F-series truck. Tough to find, but Stern can sometimes get them.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

Hmm..was looking for answers not what laws apply and don't apply..

If you're looking for an answer that requires you break the law, you're not getting that answer.

Anything that claims to be an answer yet is just something to justify doing an illegal HID conversion really isn't an answer.

They are "illegal" just like colorados stupid law that you can't lend your vaccume (sic) to your neighbor on sundays. (seriously, that's a law).

Then lobby to get that "stupid law" changed if you feel so strongly about lending your vacuum on a Sunday.

ANYWHO..so I assume I should ditch this account and find another forum online where I could actually have a decent conversation in finding the answer to a few questions?

There is no other forum online where you will get good, real, factual information. Every other forum will have some noob saying that 12000K HIDs are brighter than 4200K HIDs, or that Sylvania Silverstar Ultras are brighter than 'ordinary' halogen bulbs. They'll have noobs stating that LED turn signal drop in replacement bulbs work safely and effectively.

You can stay here and get REAL information, or you can find somewhere to get cheered on for making unsafe, ineffective, and illegal modifications to your car.

 

[etherealshade]

There is no other forum online where you will get good, real, factual information. Every other forum will have some noob saying that 12000K HIDs are brighter than 4200K HIDs, or that Sylvania Silverstar Ultras are brighter than 'ordinary' halogen bulbs. They'll have noobs stating that LED turn signal drop in replacement bulbs work safely and effectively.

You can stay here and get REAL information, or you can find somewhere to get cheered on for making unsafe, ineffective, and illegal modifications to your car.

:rock: +1

But really, CPF is a hugely valuable resource and store of knowledge about all things lighting. Hang around a while, and read some of the information available, and I promise you'll find it helpful.

:welcome:

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Hmm....

Well.... we know that altering the light source in a given lamp will alter the beam pattern, almost always not for the better (I could tell you about a ridiculous **** Cepek light with a "210 watt H4" that was really like a giant H3 with H4 base, that threw such a horrible ring-shaped pattern that installing a standard H4 on high beam was actually an improvement), so alterations are generally a bad idea on public highways.

Yes, washers can sometimes be used to change focal length. And I've heard that the H7 to HID conversion comes closest to maintaining the same focal length. But the shape of the HID arc plasma is different than that of the filament in the incandescent halogen bulb one replaces, so the beam produced cannot ever be identical to the original.

And we know that altering the light source of a vehicle lamp is not legal on public highways.

Also, we know this forum does not allow advice recommending illegal activities.

So... for purposes of discussion, I suggest liberal use of the phrases "for offroad use only," and "for discussions purposes only," along with an appropriate scattering of the word "hypothetically...."

There's a lot of discussion about HID conversions on some motorcycle forums, many of which are not so strict about discussing matters outside of the law. The same issues come up, though. On advider.com/forums many riders talk of HID conversions putting out more light, while others chime in and point out that we do NOT want to blind other drivers. You can bet that riders of adventure bikes are very interested in HID, both because motorcycles are extremely limited in charging system capacity and available space, and because riders are concerned about being seen by drivers of cars and trucks.

Frankly, I'm quite interested in discussion of HID conversions and how they work out - or don't. I just know that such a conversion will screw up my low beam and end up blinding others and/or blinding me when in fog. For the guys wanting to play Baja Racer offroad, maybe there's a benefit; and the conversions would be legal, offroad. But I spend most of my time on the highway.

 

[-Virgil-]

I suggest liberal use of the phrases "for offroad use only," and "for discussions purposes only," along with an appropriate scattering of the word "hypothetically...."

...and those of us who know the difference between chicken manure and chicken salad will carry right on telling the OP what he needs to hear, not what he wants to hear. Remember, "for off-road use only" labelling does nothing to exempt an illegal lighting component from the Federal regulations, which stipulate that every item of regulated vehicle equipment must comply with all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards if it is physically capable of being installed on a vehicle certified as complying with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. How, where, or when the vehicle is to be used does not enter into the discussion.

 

[-Virgil-]

Hmm..was looking for answers not what laws apply and don't apply.

You're getting the info you need, even if it isn't the info you think you want.

They are "illegal" just like colorados stupid law that you can't lend your vaccume to your neighbor on sundays.

No, they are illegal (no quote marks) because they are dangerous. Your headlights aren't toys, they're safety equipment, and their performance characteristics affect not only your safety but that of everyone else who shares the road with you.

I assume I should ditch this account and find another forum online where I could actually have a decent conversation in finding the answer to a few questions?

You can if you like; it's a free country. But you'd be smarter to realize that you're being given sound advice to correct a safety-critical error you made in "upgrading" your truck's lights. You have a learning opportunity here -- take advantage of it rather than complaining about it.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

...and those of us who know the difference between chicken manure and chicken salad will carry right on telling the OP what he needs to hear, not what he wants to hear. Remember, "for off-road use only" labelling does nothing to exempt an illegal lighting component from the Federal regulations, which stipulate that every item of regulated vehicle equipment must comply with all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards if it is physically capable of being installed on a vehicle certified as complying with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. How, where, or when the vehicle is to be used does not enter into the discussion.

I agree, tell him the whole truth. But I am not opposed to discussing just about anything. (On a firearms forum, I might discuss design of sound suppressors, even though "silencers" are severely regulated or illegal in most parts of the United States.) I'd need to take your statement to a lawyer (and I can't spare the $300 per hour) to really sort it out. But I have a hunch that "regulated equipment" is equipment on a "regulated vehicle" that operates on a public road. I'm sure the lights on a farmer's tractor don't have to meet FMVS standards, because it's used on private property. Nobody makes us put street legal headlights on our mobile cranes at work.

Likewise, I think an extremely literal interpretation of your statement could mean that, since anything can be installed on a car, then all equipment in the world (not bigger than a car, so it can be installed) that doesn't comply with FMVSS is illegal by its very existence. I'm sure you didn't mean that. And I'm also fairly confident that while offroad lights on a public highway mean trouble, they are fine in their place (I haven't seen any mass arrests for equipment violations at the Baja 1000).

All I'm saying (using way too many words to say it), and I admit I'm pretty new here myself, is that I interpret the rules here to say we may talk about anything, but we do not recommend anything illegal. I see no rule violation in discussing HID conversions, so long as we never recommend them for street use on public roads. I've always believed that full and honest discussion benefits us all, while saying "you can't talk about that because it's bad!" does more harm than good. It's GOOD to talk about HID conversions and tell the whole truth about why they are a bad idea.Nobody is jumping on the guy who started the "Vehicle Mounted Floodlights" thread, because he's talking about a non-highway application for lights that definitely are not legal vehicle lights.

The fact is, I have a rusty old 4x4 one ton truck that's becoming too difficult to keep up to standards, so I'm thinking of simply relegating it to use in the woods, owned by my father, and not worrying about legal lights, or whether the work lights tacked onto it all over the place are legal. If the winch and brake lock still work, I won't care of turn signals and headlights are functional.

If I had a vehicle that was never used on public roads, and it had a really pitiful charging system, I might consider converting a couple of H7 lights to HID. I might decide it was more cost effective to get a bigger alternator and use common halogen lights, but I'd weigh the options.

 

[-Virgil-]

I have a hunch that "regulated equipment" is equipment on a "regulated vehicle" that operates on a public road.

Nope. Regulated equipment is equipment subject to FMVSS regulations that physically fits on a vehicle certified by its manufacturer as complying with FMVSS. That means every car, truck, SUV, multipurpose passenger vehicle, bus, van, etc. first sold in the US since 1/1/68.

Likewise, I think an extremely literal interpretation of your statement could mean that, since anything can be installed on a car, then all equipment in the world (not bigger than a car, so it can be installed) that doesn't comply with FMVSS is illegal by its very existence. I'm sure you didn't mean that.

Right, but you're not as far off the mark as you might have thought, because there's another class of equipment that runs afoul of the Federal regulations: items which, when installed on a motor vehicle, render it noncompliant. This is the category wherein falls the "HID kits", "LED bulbs" and other such fits-any-make-model-and-year stuff.

I interpret the rules here to say we may talk about anything, but we do not recommend anything illegal.

Probably about right, but "Say 'for off road use only' and 'for discussion purposes only' and 'hypothetically' a lot, ahem, nudge nudge, wink wink, heh heh" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in one's intent to follow the rules.

Anyhow, I'm not a moderator; final say is up to them.

 

[kingofwylietx]

I agree, tell him the whole truth. But I am not opposed to discussing just about anything. (On a firearms forum, I might discuss design of sound suppressors, even though "silencers" are severely regulated or illegal in most parts of the United States.).

Actually, suppressors (no such thing as a firearm silencer, that is only in the movies) are legal in the U.S. You have to fill out a mountain of paperwork, get it processed by B.A.T.F, and pay a $200 tax stamp.

That was a bad comparison.

The point, is that people shouldn't go replacing their halogen bulbs with HID's on their road-going vehicles. I've seen a lot of atv's with HID's installed and they are usually horrible beam patterns. Sometimes, they get less light out the front than they had with the halogens. I think it's best to buy a quality auxillary lighting device if you need more illumination.

 

[SFG2Lman]

wow...I know the best intentions are at heart here, but this looks much more like a lawyers forum of holier than thou people, than anything resembling the actual hobby of lighting. If you have never gone 1mph over the speed limit i guess you have the right to rant and rave and foam at the mouth about this, but i KNOW that excludes all of you. I don't have HID or aftermarket lights on my truck merely for the fact that i can't justify it while still making payments on it, but I WILL have lights on for hunting season next year. They will be rigged to a switch that i use off-road only, but honestly this anti HID thing has really gone a bit far eh? I know they annoy me too when i drive...but oh well....lots of things annoy me. To the op, sorry I don't have anything beneficial to your issue to contribute, i haven't done any mods myself, but i am sorry you had to get preached at...probably best you drop it before they start pasting in excerpts from various federal and state laws...they'll prolly run your IP and send the Bureau of Bad Beams (BBB) to your house to investigate your truck. I just wonder how many of them have purchased lights with tritium or lasers above the legal limit and still skirted customs...

 

[adamdude04]

Thank you Hamilton, and others!

I picked out the actual information in regards to my question.. And for the record, the focus of my question was around the Hella 500 off road, or "driving" lights as Hella labled em.

These lights I plan on only using off road hence why they are being placed on my truck in the first place. Clearly I'm not just some idiot who threw an HID kit in my truck and called it good. I took the time to reduce the glare while getting the most light output possible. I also took the time to adjust my headlights per the 5x25' rule as stated in my owners manual. I asked two questions, one in regards to which setup (parabolic or free form) is better for an HID bulb DUE TO THE different design of the bulb. Hence my second question about spacing, to get the bulb to a better position reflector wise.

I'm asking to get to know the most I can to have the best possible mod I can get.

I also took my research into deeper thought about cross refrence of other products made by Hella that reflect the same product. To much surprise I've found the Hella Rallye 4000 lights look to have the same exact glass lens as my Hella 500 I just bought. The reflector looks like a solid chrome, just like my hella 500. This is why I was more intrigued to know how spacing works or can be accomplished. This is also why I pulled the trigger and bought the Hella 500 for my HID upgrade vs the 500FF which uses a free-form reflector with a clear lens. Because looking at the 4000 and the 500, both look identical except the back of the housing (where they had to fit in a ballast an such). But lens/reflector wise they look the same. I've yet to find a straight edge answer if both products use the same lense and reflector, and for poor folk, such as myself, throw in a cheap plastic cover and halogen bulb to lower the price. If they ARE the same lense and reflector just differen bulbs installed at their factory, then I'd be much happier knowing my beam pattern should be the same as if i dropped $250 for the same thing I just spent $120 on..

Can you see where I'm getting at here?

As for the HIDs installed in my Bronco, I'm quite impressed with them. They are simply amazing with their light output and beam pattern. We went on a month long road trip From Denver to Sacramento, to seattle, to sacramento, to redwood forest/ocean, to sacramento, to seattle, back to sacramento, then finally to home in Denver. I put roughly 6k miles on my truck in that time frame. Only to get flashed TWICE by oncoming drivers. Both were in Utah, in the middle of nowhere, on small hills. Both times happend while I was going down the hill, and a car was going up - thus making my headlights for a split second shine right in their eyes. Either halogens or HIDs would still blinde no matter what in that situation. Other than that, never been flashed or had any issues. Especially with the cops in Cali where any mods to any vehicles seem to be the highlight of any day.

I can understand the "illegal" factor, but I know some of you guys have window tint on your cars or trucks that are under the legal limit. I could turn this around and claim it a saftey issue. You could do that, with any topic on hand.

Anywho hopefully my HIDs arrive tomorrow via fedex. I'm hoping I can find a true answer to the two types of reflectors and how they both work before I install the 500's I bought..

 

[ev13wt]

[abusive and vulgar quote from other forum removed - DM51]

Don't feed the forums all over the internet troll! All info here:

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=904386


This was a good read too.

http://www.titantalk.com/forums/1537019-post91.html[/QUOTE]

http://i29.tinypic.com/58mco.jpg

[ ^^ over-sized image converted to link - DM51]


Come back to pirate, we miss you Adam!

 

[John_Galt]

Getting flashed by other drivers is no indication of a good or bad beam pattern. I see tons of people in my area with HID's in their headlights, and I don't flash them, because there are other people on the road, too. I realize that they likely wouldn't care if they were flashed, and I would **** off other drivers on the road as well.

Your own pictures indicate what a horrendous beam pattern you have. Look at them... You're scattering tons of light into the oncoming drivers lane. You have a horrendous beam pattern, which appears "great" from a subjective point of view: "Yeah man, it's crazy how bright these things are, and the beam is great!!! IT lights up EVERYTHING, mon!!!"
And the "5x25" adjustment means NOTHING when you change the type of light source, as well as the focal point.


---------------
I don't give a hoot what you do with your auxiliary lighting on your vehicle, as long as you don't use it on the road, but for Dog's sake, don't mess with your freaking headlights this way!!!

 

[ev13wt]

Your own pictures indicate what a horrendous beam pattern you have.

Also, his picture shows him using it illegally, as that picture does look like a public road.

People like him make our hobby look stupid. (How do I report?)

 

[DM51]

How do I report?

The "report posts" procedure is explained here.