On lasers and freedom

[Bimmerboy]

Hello all,
I haven't seen much in the way of political commentary here (which of course is normal, being a flaslight forum) until I happened upon this thread Second Order for 100mW - 200mW Handheld Lasers , to which I responded.
I challenged Liteglow to come into the Cafe for a duel of ideas, but on second thought, since I don't get the feeling he'll be bringing much to the table in this regard /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/poke2.gif, I'm changing my request.
I know this is generally a portable light forum, but it looks like there's a large number of quite intelligent people here, so it might actually be a great place for this kind of discussion. I'd like to see instead, some reasoned (that doesn't mean without passion), pro freedom responses. For me, it would be a nice change to see that. I'm not asking for debate now. I'm pretty much just interested in posting along with some people who understand the foundations of which I speak, as illustrated by the following.

[ QUOTE ]
liteglow said:

I will be more than gladly to "register" my GLP3 portable laser..
some kind of helping the fbi and rest of the guys..
Like register a gun...

That way i`m saying "hello i got a laser and wont use it illegal" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Has been fun to register all the laser unit out there..
That way it had been more easy to track down if anybody do something illega...

but i hope there is nobody on this forum that use theyr GLP3 unit to point airplane !!

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bond007 said:

I think it's a good idea about registering lasers though, I'd be happy to do so with my lasers as all the responsible users are.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
OnThe1stDay said:

OK, guys. Now I've mostly been just lurking around here for the last couple weeks and have only put up a few posts asking some Mag mod questions, so I'm a newbie here and not looking to highjack this thread, or be disrespectful. BUT, when I start hearing or reading nonsense like this, I have to speak up.
I could say to Liteglow something like... "Norway understands freedom like my dog understands Baroque harmonization"... but I won't.
Not knowing where Bond007 lives, I could just tell him to ... "Move to Norway"... but I won't.
And Kackoo... you're no help either.
In response to all your posts, I ask.... are you kidding??? What kind of reasoning is this supposed to be?
Racoon is definitely on the right track, but I'll correct the very last thing he said.
The logical summation isn't... please think before handing over your rights. After all, what good is thinking about it, then giving up your rights anyway.
When thought through to the end, the conclusion is simply... just DON'T give them up, and make darn sure you understand that when you pander to such collectivist thought like registration, you're calling for my rights to be chipped away as well as yours.
I don't think any of you are "bad" guys, and I'll refrain from an entire dissertation on the origins of freedom for tonight. I'll leave you gentlemen with two very fitting quotes from a couple of America's founding fathers, and if anyone wants to get into it any further, we could start a new thread in the Cafe area or something. That is if you think you're up to the challenge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

"What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!—I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
PATRICK HENRY, speech to the Virginia Convention, Richmond, Virginia, March 23, 1775.—William Wirt, Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, 9th ed., pp. 141–42 (1836, reprinted 1970).

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone interested? Modern day Ben Franklin's and Patrick Henry's, your thread is HERE!

 

[LukeK]

This might end up as a CPFU candidate........
Anyways, in my mind it's pretty simple:
Regulation and registration? Much like guns to a degree and other illegal weapons and substances: If someone wants to get a hold of one of these items to do damage to pilots and other targets, then they'll be able to no problem. Registration of lasers won't remedy the situation at all.

 

[Bimmerboy]

Amazing. The above mentioned thread was closed this afternoon. Was it suddenly closed because the lasers were no longer being offered? That was 5 days ago. I could almost taste the disdain for strong talk of liberty from some of the folks in there after I posted.
At least there were a couple replies in the same spirit as mine.
I hope to get a few reponses to THIS thread so I don't wind up talking to myself... again.

 

[Bimmerboy]

Thanks for the first response, LukeK!

 

[LukeK]

OnThe1stDay -- since you appear to be a bit new, I'll just let you know about a few things:

Political discussions tend to get heated and thus, a separate forum was created for bantering over these topics. They try to keep a friendly, light ambience here on CPF and leave the political arguments to the CPF Underground (http://cpfunderground.americanconservatives.net/CPFUnderground/). I'm not entirely sure what the mods think, (though my psychic abilities are developing, I assure you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) but I imagine this thread might very well be closed and we'll be asked to continue in the underground.

 

[Kiessling]

OnThe1stDay, basically Luke has the problem outlined well.

Right now, this thread will be monitored closely and eventually locked should it get out of hand.
Behave like adults, follow the CPF rules (might be a good idea to actually look at them before starting the action) and we might get lucky with this one, although it smells like a trainwreck ..

bernhard, mod.

 

[Bimmerboy]

Thanks for the info, guys. Looks like this has been moved from the Cafe to the laser section. Let's try to keep this one open if we can. There are so few forums where I've seen this number of intelligent people. Try ZDNet Talkback and you'll see what I mean... sheesh.
To reiterate to all who spot this thread, no debates. I know how these topics get heated and everyone wants to argue. I was a little guilty of that in the thread that got me started on this. I put this new topic out as a feeler to see who's political intellect is as keen as their scientific/experimental capacities. I think it could (potentially) be a nice little thread.
Any chance it could be moved back to the Cafe? I've certainly seen a couple potentially argumentative posts there that haven't been moved or received any "warning" response. I'd like this to be seen, and I'm just guessing it might be a better fit there than in Flashlights/Lasers. If not, perhaps I'll try the Underground.

 

[Kiessling]

[ QUOTE ]
Any chance it could be moved back to the Cafe? I've certainly seen a couple potentially argumentative posts there that haven't been moved or received any "warning" response. I'd like this to be seen, and I'm just guessing it might be a better fit there than in Flashlights/Lasers. If not, perhaps I'll try the Underground.

[/ QUOTE ]

The warning message wasn't posted because of the location of this thread but because of its contents.
Right now it shall remain here since it has more to do with lasers and we shall see how it goes.
Good luck, gentlemen /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif !

bernhard

P.S.: the Underground is just the place to start threads that might get ugly, although we encourage civil discussion following the Golden Rule even there.

 

[Gabriel]

Lasers are dangerous weapons! They should be registered! Then you realise that a laser is just a diode + a driverboard + some brass casing...... How hard would that be to make? I personally could make a driverboard with extreme ease, and I'm only 17, the optical diode I am SURE could be either smuggled in or imported entirely legally, and machining the optics arrangement would just be a matter of contacting someone with the correct equipment and knowhow. You could say the same is true for a gun, but guns are more complicated systems (And have a danger of killing you if you try and make one without machining it properly) due to the explosive power involved. After the laser diode, the actual other parts of the laser are fairly easy to obtain and assemble (Did you have the time or inclination). Registering a laser would be no more than a figurehead action at best, especially as (And this I think is notable) I could turn a laser I own down to less than 5mw very easily, so that if the 'feds' raided my house, all they would find was a 5mw laser. Proving that I had done a pot mod on it, or turned the diode so that the extremely efficient optics actually had an effect, would be an entire another matter.

Lasers are assemblies that put out light. It is scary how easy it is to produce a laser. Just remember that you can walk into a gas station, buy some bottles, some petrol in a can, and some matches, rip up some cloth and have a devestating weapon. Probably for less than 20$ and probably in less than half an hour - The same -nearly- applies for lasers.

What you can't do is stop people getting hold of lasers. What you can do is A) Arrest them for abusing them, B) put retractable optronnics shields in planes so that these can be brought down if a laser beam is spotted (Just a suggestion, maybe have sensors along the plane's fuselage that if a laser beam flashes it, an unobtrusive screen lowers temporarily over the pilot's window) or C) EDUCATE people about lasers, how to use them and what is a sensible use. You have to remember that many people in the US can walk out, buy a gun, and shoot someone from a mile away FATALLY - Here in the UK I could do the same thing with a knife.. They are scary facts but they are the facts of life, and ones we will have to get used to. In my opinion...

"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, November 11, 1755.—The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, ed. Leonard W. Labaree, vol. 6, p. 242 (1963).

Says it all. We pay for our freedoms with trust that others will not abuse them. A life without freedom of choice, speech and of undertaking activities THAT DO NOT INFRINGE ON THE ACTIVITIES/FREEDOMS OF OTHERS would not be worth living.

My two pence. Thankyou.

~Christian

 

[Bimmerboy]

Advice taken from both gentlemen. I just registered at CPFU. Ohhh Liiiiteglowwwww... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif LOL
J/K I'll be civil... within reason

This thread's already somewhat derailed, but I'm still holding out a little hope for positive response. I'll likely just end up continuing it at the Underground. Thanks.

 

[Kiessling]

Another thing about the underground ... just in case you didn't read the rules /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif : it is forbidden to bring anything that goes on down there up here, under all circumstances. This might be difficult at times, but it serves to protect the friendly atmosphere of CPF.
This friendliness is also the reason why there is a rather strict moderation on "hot" topics, FYI.
bernhard

 

[Bimmerboy]

17 and in the UK, Christian? I'm impressed!
Thanks for the response.

John

 

[liteglow]

edit:

 

[Bimmerboy]

Ok ok ok... I won't use your name in my silly discussion.
By the way, I just saw your beamshot pictures, and in a word.... awesome. Especially the snowshots. I'm also about to check out the wmv links you posted.
Anyway.... friends?

 

[LukeK]

Gabriel, I still fail to see how registration will help. Will we have to register knives and razor blades as well? Perhaps spud launchers will require national registration.

[edit] Gabriel -- though I think you're dead on with your suggestions of what to do other than that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif [/edit]

 

[Enigmahack]

agreed - registration would be entirely redundant. What else do we have to register? Guns. Okay, so guns kill people, used for protection, understood.

Do people who do illegal things with guns have them registered? No? Why not?

Because it leaves a paper trail that can be followed.

Anyway, my point that I'm making and that has been made before is that anyone who's somewhat interested in using lasers as a weapon wouldn't register them, would be able to make them with a little work and guarenteed that it's not something that is *THAT* trackable.
Not only that, but imagine how much money is spent in getting lasers? How much money would the gov ACTUALLY make by having people register?

Okay, now calculate taxes, costs of setting up new registration laws, etc...

The amount of money in return would be in the negitaves. It wouldn't be a very good move and the "war on terrorism" would be again misdirected to children who were playing with a green light.

Just my 2c on the topic.

 

[Bimmerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Gabriel said:

Lasers are dangerous weapons! They should be registered!

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi Luke,
Looks like he said that as a preface to his statements that registration actually doesn't work. So in fact, you both agree.
I like how he's using the Ben Franklin quote at the end.

 

[14C]

Just because registration..and some laws for that matter do not work does NOT mean that it won't happen. Lasers have become an issue, if not for any real terrorist threat for a perceived one.

The media, if not the same ignorant politicians who call a semi-auto rifle a fully automatic weapon and incite FUD with their BS about "assault weapons" will glom onto this. Innappropriate and misuse by ANYONE including children or irresponsible adults will only further the aims of people who need to be important and "have something done" about a problem.

The fact is that lasers are not and never really were toys and they have come to be perceived and used as that. The anaolgy, once again is the BB gun. It is NOT a toy, almost any model can kill someone and in the wrong hands has done so but they were and in some places still are considered toys.

While lasers, at least the pen-type and poratable ones (with some possible exceptions) are not likely to be lethal some models have the potential to cause injury. Modifying pointers increases that potential.

Stupidy cannot be legislated against it can only be prepared for.

 

[Gabriel]

That's correct - I was mocking the idea of registration. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

~Christian

 

[LukeK]

Well that's just typical of me, I tend not to read things thoroughly enough.