Photovoltaic Array coming soon!

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Darrel has spoken in the past of how he's able to charge up his million dollar EV at public charging stations for free. Now he's talking about selling that power back?? I call that double dipping.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mark - I'm still sorry that you think I'm such a "taker."

1. There is no way to extract the power from either of my EVs except to power the car. Whatever manages to get into the car is never sold. I'm hoping that one day that'll change, but that's how it is for now. And I don't want it to change so that I can steal and "double dip" I want it that way so I can help eliminate the need for more power plants. I use public charging when I need it so that I can avoid taking a gas car on longer trips. Again, I go through this extra hassle to *help* society, not to steal from it.

2. The $1 million pricetag for the EV1 is provided somewhat tongue-in-cheek. GM was free to set the MSRP on these wherever they wanted, and it was, if I remember correctly, $36,000. GM *claims* that the the entire EV1 program to produce 1000 cars cost them $1 billion. It was their choice not to amortize that (REALLY SMALL as compared to regular car develeopment monies) developement money over many, many more cars. If the $1 billion has been 100% absorbed in the fist 1000 cars, then the next ones off the line will cost about $20,000 to build. Bargain! Saaby will quickly tell you that 1$ billion is peanuts for new vehicle development. GM spends more than that on face-lifts for cars it has been selling for decades.

[ QUOTE ]
Its nice that Darrel and others have completely characterized me from a single line of text.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your statement at the top of this post would indicate that we characterized your comment rather accurately. If you don't want anybody guessing about what you feel, then please make your point directly instead of implying that I'm doing something underhanded.

Thanks,
Darell

 

[Lurker]

Jumping back to your original post, Darell, I'd point out that the financial benefit of your energy production will increase over time as electricity prices rise, while your costs should be pretty constant. What looks like virtually a break-even deal financially right now could be quite beneficial five or ten years in the future.

So what will you do if you move to another house? Will you move the PV cells with you or sell them as part of your house?

 

[Darell]

I'll try and cover the rest with one post here.

Brock pretty much told it like it is. I spin my meter bacwards when I'm generating more than I use (during the day when there is high demand). My neighbors are then being partially powered by my clean power which the power company effectively credits me for, and sells to my neighbors. This is power that the power company would have otherwise been required to produce. At night, I spin the meter forward to charge my EV, and that (otherwise wasted) electricity is much cheaper for me than the peak power that I sell during the day. There is no way that I can go fill up an EV from a public charger and sell it back to the utility. That would be stealing just as syphoning gasoline from a city maaintenance truck and then selling it back to the gas station would be.

[ QUOTE ]
Minjin said:
Thats where my first statement came from and this would certainly be double dipping and taking advantage of the system.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but as I posted above, I'm not doing that. And yes I was upset at being accused of stealing. It would have been far more pleasant to be asked for the facts. Instead, without the facts, I was accused of it in a subtle, implied way. If nothing else, knowing the facts will at least allow you to create a stronger argument. Then we can grow from debate instead of doing whatever it is we're doing here.

If you have something to say, please say it so we can put it behind us and move on. To avoid mischaracterization, I recommend that you make clearer statements. One-liner accusations are easy to misconstrue.

[ QUOTE ]

"I understand that nothing I type here will likely sway your thinking. "
...so I'm not capable of learning or changing my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's just say that it hasn't yet happened. And there has been plenty of oportunity (before this thread). Please notice that I said "likey" in my "direct quote." That leaves room for you to prove me wrong. And I would be thrilled to be proved wrong. There is your challenge. Please know that I don't write about this stuff to change anybody's mind. Only to dispense some facts that are often unknown and/or misinterpreted.

[ QUOTE ]
"I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do. "
...so I'm deserving of pity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. This is based on the way you feel about what I'm doing, not only on what you posted here. I actually feel regret and sorrow. Pity is your word, and feeling it is your choice.

I'd love for you to respond to some of *my* comments and questions from before Brock's post. About tax incentives for donations, homeowners, parents. How about the tax rebate check that prez Bush sent out a while back? Did you cash that? Do you use gasoline? Do you use the post office? Fly on planes? Drive on roads? Breath clean air? Purchase dairy products? Agricultural products? These are all subsidized to some extent. If you consider all these activities to be "working the system" then I guess we're all doing it. The only other option I see is to live in a cave and stop breathing the clean air that I'm attempting to preserve.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Lurker said:
Jumping back to your original post, Darell,

[/ QUOTE ]
For which I thank you *mightily*! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I'd point out that the financial benefit of your energy production will increase over time as electricity prices rise, while your costs should be pretty constant. What looks like virtually a break-even deal financially right now could be quite beneficial five or ten years in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]
Between my home and my cars, I am currently consuming at least twice what I'm producing. I'll still be effected by power price increases since I'll always pay for the net balance. Once my mortgage loan is paid off, then I'm into the gravy though, for sure.
[ QUOTE ]

So what will you do if you move to another house? Will you move the PV cells with you or sell them as part of your house?

[/ QUOTE ]
The system would certainly stay with the house. The cost of removing it and reinstalling it would be prohibitive since it will be designed for this house. I think of it as any other improvement that increases the value of the home. Like a remodeled bathroom. If you were house shopping and one of your options was a house that powered itself - I think that'd look pretty attractive.

Thanks, Lurker.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
So do you have any batteries for backup? If so do you use the same inverter, or is the SB going to be specifically grid tied?

What is the solar array's voltage? I would guess the SB has a MPPT sort of thing built in?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, just realized I'd skipped this in all the excitement.

The panels are 24V, and I think that's all the voltage the inverter will see. I'm a bit confused on that last part though, so don't quote me on it until I know more. No batteries because of the expense. This is specifially a grid-tied system. The "grid" stores my power. The problem, of course, is that in a power outage, I'm screwed. I don't even get to use MY power in an outtage. I'll need to fit a cutoff switch so I can switch the entire house over to solar (free of the grid) in case of catastrophy. As it is now, a grid-tie system goes down when grid power is removed. If I remove myself from the grid before switching to my array, I should be fine. For safety they say.

Tell me what an MPPT is, and I'll let you know if my inverer will have it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]

Believe me this isn't about making money, you can't. At best you could break even with the power bill, and you still have to pay all the fees for having the service.

[/ QUOTE ]
And thank you for this. Missing in much of my writing is how much time, effort and even money goes into the big money savings that I talk so much about. There is plenty of financial "friction" in the power service. I still pay my taxes and surcharges and all that crap like everybody else. Indeed, I actually seem to be paying my own way through this life.

 

[Lasernerd]

Hey this is cool!
My house is solar & wind powered!
Myself and one other person is the Northwest solar advisers!
He designs I install!

 

[Brock]

MPPT is maximum point power tracking. If the inverter is only grid tied it most likely has this feature, otherwise you would need probably batteries. Basically it takes the maximum wattage from the solar panels and converts it to the correct voltage for the grid, that is very simplified, but the jist of it.

Darell I doubt you could "island" or power you house from your solar panels without the grid present. The inverter shuts itself off when it doesn't see outside power to prevent you from powering the grid backward in case of a power outage, it checks between cycles for the grid, 60 times a second, or is it 30? That is the reason I went with the trace SW inverters, they can back feed or sell the grid and also feed downstream or internal loads. That way if the grid fails I still can feed my internal loads, but obviously can back feed the grid anymore. Maybe the new SB's can do this? Lasernerd do you know?

As time goes on solar will eventually make more and more money as prices of electricity go up and you pay for the panels.

Although all of this doesn't take in to account the time and effort who ever is doing it is putting in. For me it is sort of a hobby, but it does require time and effort on my part, since I have batteries I have to check maintain them monthly, keep the system clean and so on.

 

[Darell]

Ah yes. MPPT. Certainly the SB inverter does that. I just hadn't head the abbreviation before. Ted will have to note that one down as well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hmm. Good point on the "island" power issue. I may want to rethink my inverter choice. But realistically, we experience power outages that last maybe a total of five minutes per year on average. It would just bug me to have some REAL outage where I'd be stuck generating power that I couldn't use. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Yeah, I have enough battery hobbies to keep my busy right now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But you know, I still DO have a small solar-charged battery that runs my computer exclusively. I have the ultimate UPS since that machine isn't on the grid at all. (well, I'm overstating this a bit since I over-drained my gel cells and ruined them last year, and am still waiting on replacements. But the panel is still up! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Lasernerd]

The Xantrex SWII with the (GTI) grid tie interface will do it all formerly Trace.
I was one of the founders of "Net Metering" it was a ugly battle from the bottom (user) to the money grubbing hardcore
utilities biggies.
There is still a few articles floating around the web about this battle.

 

[Lasernerd]

And to add that the power company pays you commercial rates
for your power!! this is lame!
we are now in the battle for more money!
while we(res.) must still pay in full for our consumption of power!

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Lasernerd said:
The Xantrex SWII with the (GTI) grid tie interface will do it all formerly Trace.
I was one of the founders of "Net Metering" it was a ugly battle from the bottom (user) to the money grubbing hardcore
utilities biggies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man... I KNOW it was a big ugly battle. Attempting to do the "right" thing often is. And just recently, the utilities wanted to begin charging us an "exit fee" here in CA. Just so we could continue to pay taxes on energy that we aren't using. Nice to have somebody to thank for the net metering. My hat is off to you...

I'll have to look into the Xantrex. What is its capacity?

 

[Lasernerd]

Thank you,,
long live the energy farmer!
Darell,nice signature,,
To me nothing like the sound of 4 Air/Wind X 503`s whapping with the blades feathered! thats aprox. 500watts a piece@ 23mph wind!

 

[Brock]

I would look at Outback now rather then Xantrex (Trace). Trace used to have great support, but after they were bought up support seems to be lacking. I thought Trace lost their UL for grid-tie, maybe they got it back by now? Most of the crew from Outback are x-Trace engineers, and they are building the inverters they way they want rather then the way the sales people tell them to.

Darell, it would change a lot of add the battery / grid fail ability. I personally would do it, but that is why I have mine in the first place. If you have that other small setup for small battery chargers (NiMH cells) and PC that's probably enough, but that's your call. I would go crazy if the grid failed and my fridge thawed knowing I had 3kw of power I couldn't use. But again that would add the cost of the batteries, the maintenance, the space and so on.

Lasernerd thanks for fighting for our grid tie rights! I am just skirting the issue by not generating enough power to have to back feed, but at some point it will come in handy. What kind of inverters do you prefer? I have stacked SW2412's so I can run our well pump and small 240 heat pumps.

 

[Lasernerd]

$$$Advanced Energy$$$ http://www.advancedenergy.com/products.htm
your SW2412`s are awesome units!
The coast here is always a chore,,the nice salty air!
The choice of inverters goes with the application of course.
Some people can deal with ruff power while others as noise free as possible

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Brock said:
I would go crazy if the grid failed and my fridge thawed knowing I had 3kw of power I couldn't use. But again that would add the cost of the batteries, the maintenance, the space and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I totally agree. I wouldn't even need batteries, actually. The freezer doesn't need power 24hr/day. If I could power everything just when the sun was up, I'd be in pretty good shape. I could shove any excess into the EVs. I don't think I'll do battery storage, but I will look into a way of being able to run in island mode during the day.

I would SO love to be able to run the house off of the EVs! Talk about a great use of available resources.

 

[Lasernerd]

Darell,
What is the voltage of your battery pack and amp hours of
your EV?

 

[Darell]

The EV1 has about 67Ahs at 385V. The Rav has more capacity (denser NiMH batteries), but I don't know what it is off hand.

 

[Lasernerd]

Ok what is the output voltage of your chargers?
Are they induction type?

 

[Darell]

Not a clue as to output voltage. They draw about 27A at 240V. They are inductive, and one-way.

 

[Saaby]

[ QUOTE ]
Lasernerd said:
...Are they induction type?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif