Please explain regulation...

mskerritt7

Newly Enlightened
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Jun 28, 2007
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Buffalo, NY
I'm trying to learn what I can about the different types of regulation. Can anyone help me out with this? Pretty much all I know right now is that there are several types, nothing about the (dis)advantages among them. I tried searching for some posts, but I'm not sure where to start or what to look for. Thanks.
 
Re: Help with regulation

there are federal regulators at the national level
there are state regulators who wish the could control everything at the national level.
there are county regulators who are just plain impossible to deal with,
and then there's OSHA. Its not just a small town in Wisconsin anymore.
And as we have seen of late, they are all worthless.

Just don't start asking about revenuers. :ohgeez:
 
Re: Help with regulation

What kind of "types" do you mean? If you mean the different available models, the link above is great. If you want a more basic overview of what regulation is, you might want to try the Welcome Mat. You could also try browsing the "Flashlight Electronics" subforum.
 
Re: Help with regulation

there are federal regulators at the national level
there are state regulators who wish the could control everything at the national level.
there are county regulators who are just plain impossible to deal with,
and then there's OSHA. Its not just a small town in Wisconsin anymore.
And as we have seen of late, they are all worthless.

Just don't start asking about revenuers. :ohgeez:

LOL

Bill
 
Talk to me about regulation....

I`m very interested in learning more about regulation. I`ve read lots but I`m still in the dark about many of the subtleties of what goes on.

Pros and Cons of Buck Vs. Boost Vs.Direct drive with resistors.
I`m just wanting to understand more about the various methods used.

Specifically I`d like to know how the different types of drives stack up against each other in terms of run time and output. Obviously drives use energy, how much do they use? Is direct drive more a more efficient use of energy or is it wasted somehow?

What is the accepted definition of each of the terms? Buck, Boost, Direct.
 
Most white LED's need a forward voltage (Vf) around 3.5v. Obviously, most power sources are never exactly that, so we need to "fiddle" with the current path in some way so it's more palatable to the LED.

Buck:
The power source voltage is higher than the Vf, so the supply voltage needs to be lowered.

Boost:
The power source voltage is lower than the Vf, so the supply voltage needs to be raised.

There are circuits which can do both, however most circuits are designed for a certain power source (battery configuration) in mind, so they only do one or the other.

Boost and Buck circuits do use some power. How much depends on the difference in voltage it's dealing with, smaller being better. A ballpark range is between 70-90% efficiency. The rest is lost as waste heat.

Direct Drive:
When your power source voltage is in the Vf range or higher, you can skip using a circuit and just use a resistor instead.


Now for the fun part:
None of the above 3 methods of driving are necessarily "regulated" per se. If a buck or boost circuit is just a liner step up or step down, you will get constant dimming in a sloping fashion.

The term "regulation" generally means that something inside the light controls the current provided to the LED in such a way that the output is relatively constant through the discharge. If the circuit is what's called "current regulated" or "voltage regulated" you get a flat discharge so the brightness remains about the same. There may be some dimming (partly dependent on the batteries being used), but it's a big difference.

Some people throw around the term "fully regulated", which generally means that the curve is VERY flat all the way until the battery is very close to dead. At this point, some lights will suddenly just turn off (bad design), while most will very quickly dim down over a matter of minutes, then continue to run at a greatly reduced output called a "moon mode". Depending on the light, this could last for a number of minutes, or a number of DAYS.

Another term often seen is "partially regulated". This can means a number of things, but one common aspect is that the battery choice can greatly affect your output curve. As batteries are discharged, their internal resistance increases. This is worse for some chemistries than others (ie. alkalines vs lithium vs NiMH). Generally, using NiMH or lithium cells will give you a flatter discharge curve, where alklaline will usually give you a sloping one. However, a few lights are capable of giving table top FLAT regulation with alkalines even (ie. Fenix E20 & E01)

And that is where another term can pop up, "pseudo regulated" for direct drive lights. The example of this is in the 3xAAA format, which usually uses a drop resistor to lower the voltage. Using alkalines, you get a constantly dimming output, and some manufacturers even count on you using alkalines for their increased resistance in the system (again, bad design). However, if you use NiMH, since their resistance is much lower, the output will remain somewhat flat for a while before it starts to drop off.

There are a multitude of combinations and permutations of the above methods for driving a LED, but it's probably best if you just asked for specifics or clarification on any parts rather than going into even more detail.

Edit:
I forgot to add why people like regulated vs non-regulated. Let's compare a theoretical light which is capable of both at the flip of a switch. Same LED, same power source.

In direct drive, let's say you get a runtime that looks like a perfect triangle from start to end, with the tail end being at the 10 hour point. A lot of manufacturers would call this 10 hour mark the runtime of "usable light". A common measurement of runtime here is runtime to 50%, which for a triangular discharge would be 5 hours.

Now let's flip the switch to a fully regulated mode. It starts out at the same level, and maintains that level to about 6.5 hours, then trails off in a dim moon mode so you can find some more batteries.

Why would you want one over the other? Well, regulated gives you less overall runtime, it's the same brightness (same usability) for the entire time. Some people don't like how it suddenly dims without much warning, but that's why it's important for a regulated light in most people's opinion to have some sort of moon mode. Direct drive will give you lot of warning of diminishing cells by dimming.

But which is more useful? With regulated, you are confident that once it drops out of regulation your cells are pretty well used up. With direct drive, will you actually use it all the way down to the end of "useful runtime"? With primaries, you don't want to toss cells with a lot of juice left in them, but do you really want to use a light that dim? Most people would get annoyed around the 2/3 mark and just toss the cells for some fresh ones. Also, if you are using rechargable cells on a direct drive light, you run the risk of running them down below the acceptable low voltage and permenantly damaging them.

Regulated vs non-regulated is somewhat a personal choice, but regulated seems to be prefered by FAR here on CPF.
 
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Great job Marduke!! I'm sure that many who read this thread will appreciate the time you spent sharing good information. Here's a link to a site that I really miss (no new reviews for quite some time). Each test included a graph that illustrated runtime vs. output. This made it very easy to "see" the regulation circuitry in action. This review was for one of my favorite lights:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propolyluxeon.htm
 
Most white LED's need a forward voltage (Vf) around 3.5v. Obviously, most power sources are never exactly that, so we need to "fiddle" with the current path in some way so it's more palatable to the LED.

Direct Drive:
When your power source voltage is in the Vf range or higher, you can skip using a circuit and just use a resistor instead.

There are a multitude of combinations and permutations of the above methods for driving a LED, but it's probably best if you just asked for specifics or clarification on any parts rather than going into even more detail.

Hello Marduke, Thank you for the scholarly intro regarding regulation. I have taken the liberty of quoting only the bits relevant to my question:

Hypothetically speaking, If I had a P7 chip that was supposed to be a 4.2v vf chip and ran it with a single 18650, would I still need to use a resistor to protect the chip from drawing too much current?

Another hypothetical question: In my thought-experiment, I would be connecting two or more 18650 protected mode cells in parallel (I would use a three pole switch so that the cells would not see each other till the load was applied) Do you think that would be safe? The goal of course is to provide longer run times and provide as much current as the P7 needs for full output.

Thanks for any help you can provide. (Or to anyone with an opinion on this!)

Best regards,
DGM
 
4.2v for the Vf for a P7 sounds a little high, but plenty of people drive the P7 in direct drive. Generally you do use a resistor because a fully charged 18650 starts off at ~4.2v and the Vf of a P7 is more like 3.5-3.7v. The added issue of using 3 of them in parallel is it will take longer for the voltage source to fall, meaning the LED will be in a potentially over driven state for longer.

Someone who has more experience modding with P7's can chime in for a more specific (and correct) answer.

I would recommend getting one of the single mode P7 driver circuit boards and using it to regulate the voltage and current. A single one can take your power setup and regulate the output so the P7 is driven at spec. The board is only a couple bucks, and there are several threads on them in the electronics batteries included section, the homemade and modified section, and maybe the LED section.
 
4.2v for the Vf for a P7 sounds a little high, but plenty of people drive the P7 in direct drive. Generally you do use a resistor because a fully charged 18650 starts off at ~4.2v and the Vf of a P7 is more like 3.5-3.7v. The added issue of using 3 of them in parallel is it will take longer for the voltage source to fall, meaning the LED will be in a potentially over driven state for longer.

Someone who has more experience modding with P7's can chime in for a more specific (and correct) answer.

I would recommend getting one of the single mode P7 driver circuit boards and using it to regulate the voltage and current. A single one can take your power setup and regulate the output so the P7 is driven at spec. The board is only a couple bucks, and there are several threads on them in the electronics batteries included section, the homemade and modified section, and maybe the LED section.

Thanks, I was taking the written specs on DX at face value where they specified 3.6~4.2V.
(perhaps this is a "try your luck" maximum.) :)

The reason I was thinking of avoiding the regulator boards was due to current limits and the need to use multiples to reach maximum potential. The other thought also is the concept of increased parts count and failure rates. I do like the idea of regulation though.....

Thanks again,
DGM
 
Marduke- Thank you so much for your time and effort in explaining that to us.
I think you could talk to one of the Mods here about rewriting the Welcome Mat if your so inclined, I find your explanations much clearer than anything I could fathom elsewhere.

Again, Many Thanks.:thumbsup:
 
Thanks for the explanation Marduke.

Follow-up: I've come across PWM before. Is that a form of regulation or more just a way to achieve different brightness modes from a single light?
 
The term "regulation" generally means that something inside the light controls the current provided to the LED in such a way that the output is relatively constant through the discharge.
Great post, Marduke! Always good to see members educating one another.
 
Thanks for the explanation Marduke.

Follow-up: I've come across PWM before. Is that a form of regulation or more just a way to achieve different brightness modes from a single light?

PWM = Pulse Width Modulation. It's a mean to control brightness by VERY quickly turning the light on and off. It works sort of like this:

Say you have a light which is set to provide a constant current of 100mA to the LED. By leaving on the current full time, you get the full brightness. If you have a little chip which turns the power off and back on extremely quickly in short bursts. Say you have it turned on half the time and off half the time. That ends up being an average of a 50mA current draw, and an appropriate brightness to match, even though the entire time the light is being regulated at a constant 100mA. If you kept it turned off 3x longer than you kept it turned on, you would average 25mA, and it would look to be 25% as bright as when it's kept on full time.

The average is the important part, which corresponds to how bright it looks to us. The faster the signal is being turned on and off, the less we are able to notice. Starting around 60Hz (60 times per second), most humans loose the ability to perceive any sort of flicker except when something is moving through the beam (sometimes you see people talk about waving their hand in front of a light to see if the PWM frequency is low). Above a couple hundred Hz, even the most sensitive people stop noticing any sort of flicker, and at a couple kHz frequency, you don't even notice it when anything is moving through the beam (such as machinery).

Did you know that sitting in a movie theater, you're actually paying to sit there about half the time looking at the completely black screen with no image? The screen is black while the projector is switching between frames.

Our brains do a wonderful job of filling in the gaps.
 
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