Polymer Plastic (Nitrolon) flashlights vs. Aluminum

[brembo]

I run several different plastic injection molds, mostly for interior plastics of large trucks. To make a good host in plastic one would need a press in the range of 100-250 tons and a properly designed mold. The mold would probably be several hundred thousand bucks, and the press itself is a massive investment. The coloring agents used in plastic injection are wildly expensive as well, a palm full of the stuff is about 75 dollars, yet that'll go a good ways. The plastic itself is way cheaper by the pound than any metal we'd want a light made from. So making <10,000 lights you'd be better off with mills and metal, make em in bulk and the poly-lights begin to make sense. I'd guess a rate of one host per minute with injection molding, not counting the manual labor of trimming flash and QA work. Caps and bezels would be much quicker, possibly twice as fast.

 

[Napalm]

I think the integration of polymer or Nitrolon (I guess they call it) into the Surefire G2X type lights are close to what what the future flashlights will look like.

The idea is not novel. Visit your supermart's flashlight section. What's novel is selling them at $95 a pop.

Nap.

 

[LukeA]

whargarbl

Done trolling? Good.

 

[Napalm]

Done trolling? Good.

You guys should ask for a special Surefire section in the forum where you can post only by invite.

Nap.

 

[ebow86]

I'm a big fan of surefire's nitrolon myself, but I really am not crazy about it when it comes to it being used in LED's that produce any signifigant amount of heat. With their incandescent lights this isn't a problem, but even with these nitrolon lights that have aluminum bezels, I still worry about heat buildup, and that's why I don't think nitrolon or plastic is that great of a host, at least for most LED flashlights, not all.

 

[LukeA]

whargarbl 2

"You guys?" Which guys? Surefire light owners? I'm not one.

Ignored.

 

[ebow86]

Some say G2 has the LOWEST water resistance in SF's caterlog

No that goes to the surefire rechargeables, most likely the 10X Dominator. The 8AX/8NX and 9AN have a tiny hole in their bezel to pervent gas buildup should the battery malfunction, thus making them less than waterproof.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Done trolling? Good.

You guys should ask for a special Surefire section in the forum where you can post only by invite.

Nap.

"You guys?" Which guys? Surefire light owners? I'm not one.

Ignored.

Ok guys, knock it off. You are disrupting this thread

Bill

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't know if this has ever been researched before but what about perhaps mixing in a thermally conductive additive to the polymer before casting? The fast heat transfer would protect the polymer matrix from deteriorating from heat and protect the light circuit (also making for fast easy flashlight body production). Win win for everyone if it could be done.

 

[beerwax]

I run several different plastic injection molds, mostly for interior plastics of large trucks. To make a good host in plastic one would need a press in the range of 100-250 tons and a properly designed mold. The mold would probably be several hundred thousand bucks, and the press itself is a massive investment. The coloring agents used in plastic injection are wildly expensive as well, a palm full of the stuff is about 75 dollars, yet that'll go a good ways. The plastic itself is way cheaper by the pound than any metal we'd want a light made from. So making <10,000 lights you'd be better off with mills and metal, make em in bulk and the poly-lights begin to make sense. I'd guess a rate of one host per minute with injection molding, not counting the manual labor of trimming flash and QA work. Caps and bezels would be much quicker, possibly twice as fast.

wouldnt you outsource so you dont need to buy the press. still you are talking serious bikkies to make a torch.

i see a great varyance in plastic quality. go sit in some cars, maybe a hyundai and a jeep and a bmw and a benz. some are very nice. but im still not a fan of plastic for a torch - i just dont like it.

dont really like aluminium either unless its got a rich think natural anodize.

while i understand the compariison folks here are making with guns for me a more relevant comparison would be with a wristwatch. i dont want a plastic watch i dont care how functional it might be.

cheers

 

[brembo]

i see a great varyance in plastic quality. go sit in some cars, maybe a hyundai and a jeep and a bmw and a benz. some are very nice. but im still not a fan of plastic for a torch - i just dont like it.

One of the plastics I deal with often is called Ashai Xyron, it's used mainly for fairings on semi-trucks. When it comes out of the mold it's surface temp is ~400 degrees, making the core a few more than that. It's tough. Like iron kinda tough, cools in a big hurry and pretty much laughs in the face of an open flame, a torch will scorch it eventually. It's VERY expensive stuff(for plastic), around 5 bucks a pound, requires immense injection pressure (4400 tons), but it makes some impressive parts. The final product has strange tactile feedback. Your mind knows it's hard and non-giving, but for whatever reason fingertips return a slight "soft-touch" sensation. I think this or a similar plastic would be killer for a beater light, one that you have no qualms about tossing around and letting it slide around some. Cleans up well too, scratches can be torched, returns the material to it's core color with a quick swipe. It's very difficult to make precision items with however, threads would likely need to be AL sleeves or something like that.

Just a neat tidbit: The pressure requirements are astonishing. A mold that makes a 2 foot by 2 foot panel has to have flanges so bolstered and reinforced the mold weighs 45,000 pounds. The big 7 foot long kitchen tabletop's mold weighs in at around 100,000 pounds. When these behemoths go zooming around overhead people scatter, and no I have never dropped one.

 

[leon2245]

Aluminum's light enough for me & dissipates heat best, though I can see someone preferring plastic if in a light that doesn't need the body to help with heat. As mentioned I also find the plastic I mean polymer on glocks, hk's, kahrs & the like pretty tough, more so than aluminum in some ways, & I have almost 100% transitioned from steel & Al. to plastic pistols. Once LED's are so efficient that heat is a non issue I'll probably do likewise (as if we'll have much of a choice). So I do understand why someone (else) might choose plastic lights even now. It's actually the advantages of Ti I haven't figured out yet, apart from the jewelry angle- harder to machine, not as good with heat, thread smoothness with production Ti (unless from the high end boutique shops)... they are beautiful though!

Either way I'll take Aluminum every time. Skipping the PA40 & waiting on the Q50 for mostly that reason, along with the instant jump to low OR high UI. But we better get used to it, as plastics are the wave of the future. They will slowly take over like with most everything else:

 

[tam17]

Polymers are slowly taking their place, but I don't believe in a quick and complete takeover. Aluminium and steel flashlights are always going to be available, although they'll probably be more expensive. The heat transfer/dissipation issue isn't going to be solved easily, so I really don't expect to see any 1000lm plastic lights soon.

I've already ordered a polymer flashlight that created quite a buzz here on CPF recently, and I must admit I'd like to have some of the small Streamlight or Pelican LED hazloc plastic lights for everyday beating.

You can call me a plastic lover if you like

Cheers,

Tam

 

[River17]

Being a fan of aluminum for about 95% of my lights, when I first read the topic of this thread I thought "heck, aluminum is better for a million reasons! I'll sure give all the reasons and details in my response, just as soon as I finish reading the OP!" And then as I kept reading down the list of reasons, I realized something: aluminum isn't actually better at all! I mean I absolutely LOVE (and prefer) the feel, look, and "work" of a quality aluminum body of a SureFire for example, but I have to admit the OP made a lot of good points... most of them factually irrefutable indeed. I must admit, I stand corrected, and I am frankly quite amused to say so!

As far as the firearm side of this thread (moderators please pardon the slight step off-topic, I only mean to add insight to the metal vs polymer debate) I wanted to be the first to mention the fact that HK was the original user of polymer in handguns, but GaAslamp beat me to it! To be fair though, while HK was the original/pioneer of polymer, Glock was the first to really mass-produce handguns with polymer frames.

Polymer is just as good as (if not better than) metal in many circumstances in firearms as well as flashlights, but to go into full detail would take me too far from the proper topic. I will say though that there is certainly something to be said for the old-school wood-n-metal battle rifles of the past. In WWII for example, if your M1 ran out of ammo or malfunctioned you could still CRUSH people with the thing... it is BIG, it is HEAVY, and it is SOLID. The same can be said for lights such as MagLites, and for someone such as a Police Officer it is always good to have that compliance "device" either as a backup to your primary baton or as a baton-style weapon. I own a SureFire L7 and while certainly not as beefy as a 3D- or 4D-cell Mag it would be an effective defensive weapon.

For a personal, EDC-type light I can appreciate the many benefits of polymer over aluminum as listed by the OP. While many like myself still prefer aluminum I think I've actually gained a little more appreciation for the "plastics" after reading this thread... learn (or in this case come to the realization of) something new every day, I guess.

 

[leon2245]

That's exactly what I imagine in the plastic light revolution. There will still be some al. lights, just fewer options for the diehards, & like you said more expensive... you PLASTIC LOVER!

 

[ebow86]

To be fair here it really isn't fair to keep referring to surefire's nitrolon as merely "plastic". I mean, sure in the end it's still plastic, the same as platinum and tin and both "metal", however surefire's nitrolon is a step above most of the other plastic lights I've seen and it's makeup and structure is far more advanced that what it gets credit for.

 

[[email protected]]

the aluminum have a better heatsink than plastic

 

[leon2245]

Thank you. Not merely plastic, but the latest in POLYMER technology!

 

[rmteo]

Engineering plastics are a group of plastic materials that exhibit superior mechanical and thermal properties in a wide range of conditions over and above more commonly used commodity plastics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_plastic

 

[tam17]

Or, to be more precise:

Nitrolon is the registered name of a proprietary aramid-composite polymer used mainly for housings. The material is corrosion resistant, non-conductive and can be comfortably handled at low temperatures. Nitrolon comes from the military technology and, according to manufacturer, better absorbs shocks than aluminum.

Source: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrolon (via Google Translate)

Fibre-reinforced plastic (FRP) (also fibre-reinforced polymer) is a composite material made of a polymer matrix reinforced with fibres. The fibres are usually fibreglass, carbon, or aramid, while the polymer is usually an epoxy, vinylester or polyester thermosetting plastic. FRPs are commonly used in the aerospace, automotive, marine, and construction industries.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

Some manufacturers use plain polycarbonate and ABS (these are non-FRP).

Cheers,

Tam