Q RE: Incan vs LED as personal searchlight

[scott2907]

Hi all
I'm in law enforcement and have been using a surefire 6p for a while. I just bought a 3rd party Hong Kong Cree lamp for it. I thought that you might be interested in the results and that you might be able to answer a few questions too. Firstly, the fit of the unit is bad - it doesn't really. It sort of sits on top and leaves a 3-4mm gap on the head to body screw threads which isn't ideal. It also seems to have a bad connection to negative and has been a bit intermittent. Jiggling the unit about to get a better connection then screwing it all back together sorts it.

In use, I was initially impressed with the incand. 6p P60 bulb. I mainly use it for a searchlight for distant work when I can't get back to the car for a big torch. It often beats the dragon searchlights we carry anyway. The main reason why I "upgraded" is because I wanted MORE power (why not?) but mainly, cheaper power. I can't afford CR123s all the time.

The CREE (if it is one in my 'clone' unit) did seem brighter out of the tin but it doesn't seem to penetrate DISTANCE like the incand. did. I'm wondering if this is because the spectrum is narrower - ie a wider spectrum would get through more atmosphere than absorbs a range than something with a narrow spectrum getting mostly absorbed by the same filter. Does that make sence? Has anyone else noticed this and if so, does this mean that incands. are the only way out? I have to say, so far I haven't been impressed. When I turned on my 6P people used to go "WOW". Now they don't look twice. Also, has anyone compared orange peel reflectors to smooth for this application with incand vs LED?

Finally, I was wondering about lights like the FENIX that use AA or AAA. They boast the same lumens rating as the CR123 versions. Is it just a matter of runtime difference? If so, what is that difference? Bearing in mind you can get 12 AAAs or rechargables for the price of a CR123, how does the runtime/£ work out?

Thanks
Scott.

 

[Nitroz]

Since you're in law inforcement this would be a great light for you if you are not on a budget. The good thing is that you would not have to buy any batteries for this light, and you would have the excellent Pelican warranty as peace of mind. This is also a Cree light.

http://pelican7060.com/features.html

Oh, and welcome to CPF.:wave:

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

Hi all
I'm in law enforcement and have been using a surefire 6p for a while. I just bought a 3rd party Hong Kong Cree lamp for it. I thought that you might be interested in the results and that you might be able to answer a few questions too. Firstly, the fit of the unit is bad - it doesn't really. It sort of sits on top and leaves a 3-4mm gap on the head to body screw threads which isn't ideal. It also seems to have a bad connection to negative and has been a bit intermittent. Jiggling the unit about to get a better connection then screwing it all back together sorts it.

In use, I was initially impressed with the incand. 6p P60 bulb. I mainly use it for a searchlight for distant work when I can't get back to the car for a big torch. It often beats the dragon searchlights we carry anyway. The main reason why I "upgraded" is because I wanted MORE power (why not?) but mainly, cheaper power. I can't afford CR123s all the time.

The CREE (if it is one in my 'clone' unit) did seem brighter out of the tin but it doesn't seem to penetrate DISTANCE like the incand. did. I'm wondering if this is because the spectrum is narrower - ie a wider spectrum would get through more atmosphere than absorbs a range than something with a narrow spectrum getting mostly absorbed by the same filter. Does that make sence? Has anyone else noticed this and if so, does this mean that incands. are the only way out? I have to say, so far I haven't been impressed. When I turned on my 6P people used to go "WOW". Now they don't look twice. Also, has anyone compared orange peel reflectors to smooth for this application with incand vs LED?

Finally, I was wondering about lights like the FENIX that use AA or AAA. They boast the same lumens rating as the CR123 versions. Is it just a matter of runtime difference? If so, what is that difference? Bearing in mind you can get 12 AAAs or rechargables for the price of a CR123, how does the runtime/£ work out?

Thanks
Scott.

You don't have to buy many disposable CR123 batteries, you can use rechargeable li-ions in your 6P.

Lumens Factory makes excellent incandescent bulb replacements for the 6P, and they are better at distances than the stock SureFire lamps.

Check it out: www.lumensfactory.com

The D26 4 series are the ones you want. These lamps will run on just one 17670 li-ion battery.

 

[Any Cal.]

No the LEDs do not penetrate the outside air as well as incans do. For a spotlighting tool they are not ideal. It sounds like you need to set your 6p up as a rechargeable. The single 17670 battery setup is nice. Seems like it would be easy to keep a spare.

 

[jbosman1013]

a 2x18650 leef body and lumens factory bulb might be a good way to go

 

[Blindasabat]

An LED puts out light mostly in the blue wavelength or spectrum. That light is easily reflected by humidity in the air while the more broad spectrum incan has a lot more red end of the spectrum that can punch through instead of reflecting back or scattering. Blue light from the sun scatters the most. This is why the sky is blue.
I have seen several times that my 60-ish lumen A2 will out throw 120+ lumen LEDs outdoors. Only in the driest climates will LEDs compete well in throw. So the LAPD Pelican may not work as well in Florida as it does is California.

 

[wquiles]

It is really hard to beat a good incan outdoors. I have played a lot with LED's these last few years since I joined the forum (look at my SIG for several outdoor beamshot comparisons), and I have pretty much settled on incan's exclusively for outdoors. In my case, it is the awesome SF M6 with the HDM6 rechargeable LiIon pack, with the MN20 for longer runtimes, and with the MN21 when I want to impress folks :thumbsup:

Will

 

[yellow]

its not "THE" Cree or "led" or whatever,
it is the current the led runs on.

I ve modded a 6P with a Cree P4 that runs on ~900-1000mA in a Cutlery Shoppe 19mm reflector and one does not notice a normal 6P light Assembly when this light is on.

Other lights (with smaller reflector, or less current to the led) are way more dim and these might be on par with the original LA.
Dont forget most of the Fenixes only give some 700 mA to the led. Its a huge difference to a power emitter @ 1 A.

 

[scott2907]

Thanks for all your answers, most confirming what I thought about LEDs at distance. Since I'm not sure how to alter the current of my LED assembly I'll probably go for one of the other incand. suggestions and try those. I'll do some testing to find out what my LED is pulling and then I might ebay it or bin it....

 

[Bertrik]

An LED puts out light mostly in the blue wavelength or spectrum. That light is easily reflected by humidity in the air while the more broad spectrum incan has a lot more red end of the spectrum that can punch through instead of reflecting back or scattering. Blue light from the sun scatters the most. This is why the sky is blue.
I have seen several times that my 60-ish lumen A2 will out throw 120+ lumen LEDs outdoors. Only in the driest climates will LEDs compete well in throw. So the LAPD Pelican may not work as well in Florida as it does is California.

I don't believe the scatter theory without further supporting evidence. Clouds also scatter light and are perfectly white, not blue. From a theoretical point of view, cloud/fog droplets are still much larger than the wavelength of light, so I think the effect cannot be fully attributed to simple wavelength dependent scattering.
Other explanations for better throw of incans from earlier threads are: more uniform spatial distribution of light by incans (LEDs throw more light forward so it misses the reflector and therefore ends up as spill) and the stronger blinding effect of blueish light on the eye from LEDs opposed to the yellowish light from incans.

 

[kurni]

An LED puts out light mostly in the blue wavelength or spectrum. That light is easily reflected by humidity in the air while the more broad spectrum incan has a lot more red end of the spectrum that can punch through instead of reflecting back or scattering. Blue light from the sun scatters the most. This is why the sky is blue.

Oh, is that why the sky is blue; I have always wondered about this. I learned it when I was little but I could never remember it. Now that it's related to LED I won't forget . Thanks Blindasabat.

Hopefully Fenix will come up with warm LED soon; Fenix seems to have been good for value.

 

[TITAN1833]

scott2907,incans i find are great outdoors,checkout the ultrafire WF500.it puts out around 500 lumens is cheap and is very well made.welcome to CPF.

 

[Dinan]

I don't believe the scatter theory without further supporting evidence. Clouds also scatter light and are perfectly white, not blue. From a theoretical point of view, cloud/fog droplets are still much larger than the wavelength of light, so I think the effect cannot be fully attributed to simple wavelength dependent scattering.
Other explanations for better throw of incans from earlier threads are: more uniform spatial distribution of light by incans (LEDs throw more light forward so it misses the reflector and therefore ends up as spill) and the stronger blinding effect of blueish light on the eye from LEDs opposed to the yellowish light from incans.

Well scientifically you don't need much evidence because it's already been widely accepted as the general theory (you can google it) that shorter wavelengths (higher frequency) have a higher probability of "bouncing" or "reflecting" off of something such as nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere. How you apply that theory to anything else will surely follow the same logic. (A cloud is quite thick, which is why it casts a shadow onto the ground. It's not white because it "scatters" white light. Clouds are white because they reflect almost every spectra of ambient light, only absorbing a few colors.)

The atmosphere is much less dense than clouds, and a very small percentage of light "bounces" off of the molecules, and since shorter wavelengths of light (blue) have a higher probability of bouncing, the sky appears blue and the sun appears more yellowish. It's also the reason why the ocean appears blue. It's also the reason why when during sunset, the sky takes on more of a reddish color than mid-day since the light has to go through more and more atmosphere to reach you, reflecting more and more blue as it reaches your eye, appearing redder.

Anyway, the effect of this phenomenon on flashlights at close distances is very small, but still noticeable. LED's usually have a more pronounced "beam" that you can see in the air because the light gets reflected easier than incandescents.

I could be wrong but that's just my general understanding of it from my college days...

 

[defloyd77]

Look up Rayleigh scattering.

 

[woodrow]

I think that the led vs. incan battle for which is a better searchlight depends on the light (mainly type of reflector). My D-mini with 18650 tube easily outthrows my old surefire qpz with the p60 or brighter p61 bulb outdoors. The incan's do have a wider spill though. I might recomend that light, or the MRV or new Pelican light for a searchlight over the 6p. If you want a bright incan, the Wolf Eyes 3.7v lights running on a 18650 bulb will give you a hour of light at levels much brighter than the p60. Plus, you will have free lumans and cheaper bulb replacements. Good luck no matter which light you choose.

 

[carrot]

What I think is your best bet is picking up a Surefire 9P, or a P90 bulb and an A19 1-cell extender to use on your 6P (all available through Surefire.com or various retailers), and running two Lithium-ion 17500's in it. Lithium ions are rechargeable, so you won't have to spend so much money replacing batteries, and if you forget to charge your batteries or need more runtime you can just pop in three regular CR123's. If you put a 3.7v bulb in your 6P you would be able to use a single Li-ion 17650 (or similar size) but you wouldn't have the option of putting in two CR123's without popping the bulb.

In the short run this is a little bit expensive but if you use your light heavily this setup will easily pay for itself. The additional bonus of the 9-volt (9P/9P-conversion) setup that I am talking about is that it will provide more light in package that is not really all that much larger than your current setup.

I too have noticed the phenomenon of similar-powered LEDs being unable to throw light as well or as far as incandescents. For many of us, LEDs are great but for some (like yourself), incandescents are still the way to go due to the increase in throw.

 

[JRTJRT]

How would underwater diving lights figure into all of this? Are standard lights still better than LEDs for diving, everything else being equal?

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

How would underwater diving lights figure into all of this? Are standard lights still better than LEDs for diving, everything else being equal?

In my diving experience, incans rule the underwater world too in terms of color rendition and throw. Seawater has a lot of suspended particles so LEDs have a hard time cutting through that, not to mention all the light that gets reflected on those particles.

 

[JRTJRT]

Very interesting...

:thinking:

 

[GreySave]

Here again effectiveness depends upon the terrain as the terrain affects color rendition / absorption. If Scott2907 operates in a rural environment or areas with heavier foilage that might be a factor in dis disappointment with the lED versus incan.

From the automotive world...blue light does scatter more. That is why HID headlamps can be so annoying. They require well designed reflectors to put the beam down properly without blinding others and must be properly aimed. Even when everything is set properly I still find them annoying and distracting.