Quality Question

[Willieboy]

There are so many nice flashlights from which to choose, I get confused. Thus far, I've only purchased SureFire, Ra, and an ARC. When considering brands like Fenix, NiteCore, Olight, EagleTac, Novatac, etc, forgetting about features for a moment, is there a clear front runner in terms of build quality, durability and reliability or, is it a toss up?

 

[kramer5150]

You can ad Leuphold at the top of that list. I played around with one at a recent meet and their 2xCR123 P60 host felt like a 7-inch cut of steel bar stock compared to my Surefires. Thick walled construction, hefty/smooth typeIII finish, thick glass window, Smooth forward click switch, thick walled bezel and a tad heavier than my M2.

As far as durability and reliability are concerned...
There have been very few reports of 6P failures and no Lowes task force failures that I am aware of.
My L1T-V2 thus far has been my most abused/dropped light and its handled it like a champ, with just some cosmetic scratches. My RC-N3Q5 has also been similarly abused, and going on strong.

 

[Toaster]

Well I'm not sure why you grouped Novatac in with the various Chinese manufacturers. The quality of their lights is more on level with Surefire and RA rather than the various Chinese manufactured lights.

 

[Mjolnir]

I don't really understand how you can group all of a companies products into one level of quality. Different models of lights from the same company will have different tube thicknesses, different heads, and possibly different switches. Therefore, you would have to look at the lights one model at a time. Of course, companies with bad quality control will sell lower quality products, but most of the manufacturers you listed have good QC.
What is the definition of a "high quality" light? People always talk about the "quality of the machining," but what does that really mean? I can understand that threads need to be machined precisely, but why should the outside of the light really matter? I suppose knurling could be an issue, but I don't see how the quality of the knurling would be relevant; it is the style/type of knurling that determines how good of a grip you have.
As far as durability goes, most of the lights sold by these companies are aluminum, so they will not break if you dropped them. Incandescent bulbs, on the other hand, can break if you drop the light, so would the surefire incan models not be considered durable? An important quality issue would be the switch, but I have seen no empirical data that suggests that any brand's clicky switch is any less likely to fail than any other brand's. I would think that any premature failure would be from some small defect in manufacturing, but I believe that you probably have an equal chance of getting a bad switch from any of these manufacturers.
These are flashlights, not finely tuned machines. They don't have many moving parts. Therefore, I don't really see what effect "build quality" really has on the reliability of the light, or even how quality can be objectively measured.
Wear on the outside of a light should have no bearing on the operations of a light, so I don't see how the quality of the finish is really relevant to durability either. Therefore, I think that good customer service is probably more important than purported "build quality," since you can get a bad light from any manufacturer.
Of course, some of the cheap chinese lights (from DX/KD) will not have the same quality (no matter how you measure it) as any of the brands listed above, since they probably have minimal quality control, and price their products very low (which may mean that they use inferior parts). They also tend to not look as good visually (although this shouldn't affect durability). However, I wouldn't expect something like this from any of the companies that the OP listed.

 

[AusKipper]

There are so many nice flashlights from which to choose, I get confused. Thus far, I've only purchased SureFire, Ra, and an ARC. When considering brands like Fenix, NiteCore, Olight, EagleTac, Novatac, etc, forgetting about features for a moment, is there a clear front runner in terms of build quality, durability and reliability or, is it a toss up?

Sadly I only own Fenix, of the above brands, so i cant compare.

However, I will say I have never had a problem with a Fenix light as yet, and have had problems with Dorcy, Duracell, Gerber (Gerber hasnt broken or anything, it just rubbish..), Winchester and Extreem.

Never had either a Fenix break (I own... 8 or so) or an Eveready break (used to have an Eveready Dolphin.. i think i misplaced it somewhere). I also have a Mini Mag that has dismal output, but has also not broken.

Thats pretty much every flashlight brand I have had, so Fenix has been my first, and so far only taste of quality.

All that said, There are Fenix's and Fenix's. I think the toughest Fenix i own would be my TK20, closely followed by TK10, TK11 and LD01 stainless.

The weakest Fenix i own (as far as dropping it and throwing it sort of thing) would be the TK40. However, the TK40 is the brightest, and my second favorite (TK20 being the favorite).

I know this hasnt helped, because I cant compare to any of the other listed brands... but I just thought i would share my Fenix experience.

There is a thread in the LED section however, some people have had trouble with their Fenix TK20's recently... I have another one on the way, I am hoping it all turns out ok...

 

[Willieboy]

Well I'm not sure why you grouped Novatac in with the various Chinese manufacturers. The quality of their lights is more on level with Surefire and RA rather than the various Chinese manufactured lights.

I grouped Novatac in with the others out of ignorance. I don't know where Novatac is manufactured. Also, I just listed a bunch of brands I thought were popular, really not trying to focus on where the product was manufactured.

 

[Mjolnir]

It doesn't seem that the OP "grouped Novatac with the other chinese manufacturers" at all, but rather with other brands that he has not had first hand experience with. He doesn't mention that most of them are chinese companies at all. To me, it seemed like he was grouping Surefire, Ra, and ARC as known quantities, and the others as unknown (and not necessarily worse).
Toaster, I think you may have misunderstood what the OP was saying and jumped to a conclusion, or perhaps I did.
Either way, I don't think it is really fair to say that American lights are automatically better than Chinese lights, or to group all of the American lights above the Chinese lights simply because they are American. I have seen no evidence that a brand like Surefire is more reliable/durable/higher quality than a brand like fenix. In fact, just today someone posted a thread about a torture test that he had done on a Fenix TK40 (dropping it multiple times from multiple hights, running it over with a car multiple times, freezing it, boiling it, submerging it in salt water).
If that isn't reliability, then I don't see what is. Therefore, you really don't have any reason to say that Novatac (or any brand) should be grouped with surefire and Ra above these brands. They all seem to be excellent lights.

 

[Willieboy]

It doesn't seem that the OP "grouped Novatac with the other chinese manufacturers" at all, but rather with other brands that he has not had first hand experience with. He doesn't mention that most of them are chinese companies at all. To me, it seemed like he was grouping Surefire, Ra, and ARC as known quantities, and the others as unknown (and not necessarily worse).

You nailed it sir.

 

[Toaster]

Mjolnir it sounds to me you have zero experience with higher end lights like from RA or even Surefire. There is a reason why they are regarded as being so reliable and bulletproof. And it has very little to do with where they are made, and everything to do with how they are made. And I don't mean how they look on the outside as you seem to be so focused on aesthetic details like knurling and finish. How many of the Chinese made lights popular on this forum can boast features like fully potted electronics, Pyrex/Borofloat lens, waterproof construction past 8 ft, shock isolated battery compartments, and thermal protection? Then look past that at the design and engineering of these lights. You buy a Surefire or RA and you can be guaranteed the lights have been engineered and tested down to the last detail. You don't have to worry about being a beta tester and discovering defects in the design or construction of your lights which seems to be becoming the standard practice around here. What am I talking about? Off the top of my head battery compartments shearing due to insufficient thickness, pistons sticking/seizing due to poor design and lubricant choice, reverse polarity battery protectors falling off, lenses breaking on minor impacts, o-ring seals that don't seal, lights that overheat if you leave em on too long, poorly performing circuits with subpar efficiency and erratic behavior, parts that don't fit right, ergonomics that are designed to look cool rather than be functional, etc, etc. I could go on and on.

It's not as easy to measure quality and reliability as it is other parameters of a light. There's no simple method like a lumen measurement to say one light is better than another. But imho it's pretty apparent who is consistently producing the better quality and reliable lights. And consistency really is the keyword here. Because while some manufacturers produce a light here or there that is solid throughout, only a handful produce lights of that quality throughout their whole lineup. You put up that TK40 test as an example and I say so what? Take any light from RA or Surefire and I'm sure it would survive that much and more. It's also amusing to me that you mentioned the TK40 as an example of reliability as 4Sevens said it has the highest return rate of all the high powered multi-emitter lights they sell due to it's 8xAA power source and the inherent troubles that come with it. You say there's no reason to rank lights like Surefire and RA above the rest. And I say you have much to learn if you think a light like say a Fenix PD20 is in the same league of durability and reliability as a RA Twisty.

 

[AusKipper]

There is a reason why they are regarded as being so reliable and bulletproof. And it has very little to do with where they are made, and everything to do with how they are made.

Thats pretty much what he said:

Either way, I don't think it is really fair to say that American lights are automatically better than Chinese lights

And I say you have much to learn if you think a light like say a Fenix PD20 is in the same league of durability and reliability as a RA Twisty

Firstly, I didnt read anywhere in Mjolnir's post that he in any way thought that a Fenix PD20 is more reliable/durable than an RA twisty. Secondly your comparing apples to oranges. the RA would compare to something in the TK series, not the PD series of Fenix lights. Both the RA Twisty and the TK20 would, I image, be indestructable enough that if one was in such an accident great enough to kill it (dropped out of the international space station?) it would kill the other one, and or, kill the user.

I have heard (on these forums) of people having trouble with BOTH RA and Fenix TK20's so no light is flawless.

Take any light from RA or Surefire and I'm sure it would survive that much and more

Got a Surefire G2? want to test it?

To finish of, i am in no way implying that Fenix lights are better than RA or Surefire, because i really do have zero hands on experience with either of those brands. Your clearly an RA/Surefire fan and thats fine.

 

[Toaster]

To finish of, i am in no way implying that Fenix lights are better than RA or Surefire, because i really do have zero hands on experience with either of those brands. Your clearly an RA/Surefire fan and thats fine.

Sorry not trying to be a **** here but how can you offer up an opinion that one light is as indestructible as another if you have absolutely no experience with them at all?

This thread has not been about specific lights, but brand quality in general. I am willing to throw any Surefire or RA in as a comparison. And here you are saying wait, it's not fair to compare that Fenix because it wasn't meant to compete with Surefire and RA? Well I think that says volumes about the difference in standards between the two companies.

As for the RA Twisty versus TK20, I happen to have both. And while both are tough, I will bet on the RA Twisty every time. Drop the light repeatedly onto concrete from 20 ft, then throw it down against concrete repeatedly. Dunk it down to 60ft and continually turn on the light and cycle through the modes. The RA Twisty will survive those conditions, it's been done. Will the TK20 survive those tests? Doubtful imho. I don't think the electronics will survive the first test and I know for sure it's not waterproof at that depth. You don't need to "drop it from the space station" to kill a light. There are plenty of mundane tasks that will suffice.

 

[AusKipper]

Sorry not trying to be a **** here but how can you offer up an opinion that one light is as indestructible as another if you have absolutely no experience with them at all?

The same way that you can have an opinion that the RA is can survive a 20ft fall onto concrete, and the TK20 cant, without actually trying it?

And I didn't say that the TK20 was as tough as the RA, I more or less said, that even if the RA is twice as tough as the TK20, its probably doesn't matter to the OP, because the TK20 is more than tough enough for anyone not deliberately trying to destroy their light.

The RA is specifically designed to be virtually indestructible, if it wasn't tougher than the average Fenix, at $100 a pop, then they would be doing something wrong.

 

[AusKipper]

is there a clear front runner in terms of build quality, durability and reliability or, is it a toss up?

I think this will be hard for you to find an answer, and heres why, Fenix fans own lots of Fenix's, and not a lot of the others. Nitecore fans own lots of Nitecores, and not a lot of the others.

Even of these forums, theres probably not a lot of people that would have at least 3 lights from all of those manufacturers.

Even if you do find someone with 3 lights from all manufacturers they probably keep most of them as shelf queens, giving you no real indication of durability.

Maybe you need to ask a dealer, and find out off them, what brand has the least/most returns per volume sold

 

[Toaster]

The same way that you can have an opinion that the RA is can survive a 20ft fall onto concrete, and the TK20 cant, without actually trying it?

The first part is not opinion. I've dropped the Twisty onto my driveway three times now while repairing the shingles on my roof two stories up and the light survived with only a few scratches. I've dropped a L2D doing the same thing but it didn't survive the fall. Seeing as the TK20 is heavier and doesn't offer any impact resistance enhancing features, I'm not confident it will survive either.

And I didn't say that the TK20 was as tough as the RA, I more or less said, that even if the RA is twice as tough as the TK20, its probably doesn't matter to the OP, because the TK20 is more than tough enough for anyone not deliberately trying to destroy their light.

The OP didn't ask which manufacturers produced lights that were "tough enough" for your standards. He asked which manufacturers produce lights that stand out in terms of build quality, durability, and reliability. Doesn't mean everything else is junk, just that some are built to a slightly higher standard. It also doesn't mean that extra durability is wasted as you're trying to imply since there are people who value and require that degree of confidence in their equipment.

The RA is specifically designed to be virtually indestructible, if it wasn't tougher than the average Fenix, at $100 a pop, then they would be doing something wrong.

If you agree with that, what argument are you trying to make? That's basically the only point I've been trying to get across here.

 

[AusKipper]

If you agree with that, what argument are you trying to make? That's basically the only point I've been trying to get across here.

That if you should lay down, say, $35 on a Fenix E20 for example, it will be a durable, reliable light of good build quality, for the price paid. It of course wont compete with an RA twisty, at 3x the price, if you start dropping it off a tower block.

If you buy a $35 Fenix E20, and drop it in a puddle, it will most likely survive. If you drop it from hand held height onto the footpath for whatever reason it will probably survive.

Basically none of this will happen:

battery compartments shearing due to insufficient thickness, pistons sticking/seizing due to poor design and lubricant choice, reverse polarity battery protectors falling off, lenses breaking on minor impacts, o-ring seals that don't seal, lights that overheat if you leave em on too long, poorly performing circuits with subpar efficiency and erratic behavior, parts that don't fit right, ergonomics that are designed to look cool rather than be functional

 

[Zatoichi]

Seeing as the TK20 is heavier and doesn't offer any impact resistance enhancing features, I'm not confident it will survive either.

The big, heavy TK40 had no problems at all with multiple drops, bring dragged and run over by a car, being boiled and frozen... http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=233856

The only TK I own is a TK10. I'm confident it'll survive a drop, but I can tell you it hurts if it lands on your foot.

 

[Niconical]

....reverse polarity battery protectors falling off...

That happened to me (among other things) - Eagletac

 

[AusKipper]

The big, heavy TK40 had no problems at all with multiple drops

In fairness to Toaster on this one, the TK40 has only been dropped from 2.5ft in that test, not 20 ft. I have dropped mine from about 5ft on to concrete and it survived. I guess we will see when Aussibob gives us the next review if he did some higher up. I seriously doubt the TK40 would survive a 20ft drop simply because of the battery holder. But you never know, i could be in for a surprise

Perhaps i should do the honorable thing, fork out some money for another TK20, and drop it from 20ft and see what happens. I have been seriously thinking about putting one through its paces.

 

[DM51]

The argument that has developed here ranks fairly high on the "pointless bickering" scale. Members are reminded to keep their posts civil and respectful, or the thread will close with action taken against offenders.

 

[NigelBond]

Indestructibility isn't necessarily the primary indication of quality. I got a big ole block of steel about 4x12x12inches. If i bored out a hole and put a battery and a led in it, I would think it would be totaly bullet proof but does that make it a quality flashlight? You gotta look at the fit and finish, asthetics, ergonomics, efficiency and other aspects to totaly assess the overall quality of a light.

As to surefire lights. I don't own one but i have handled several models e2e, g2, m6, and a2. Didn't like the g2. It's still just a plastic light to me. In general I would say that surefire lights do seem better made than my fenix lights. That being said. I do not feel the need to spend the extra money on the surefire lights and the quality i get from fenix is more than sufficient for me. Your opinion might not be the same.

I'm really starting to dislike the anti chinese sentiment that some people express. It borders on racism sometimes. I'm not pointing fingers specifically. The majority of posters here are american and I totaly feel that one should be proud of thier country but that does not mean one needs to put down other countries to express ones pride.