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Oh man... I can't believe this. I had a lenghty reply to paulr which vanished before I could pull the trigger, and then I lost a second reply to flash.... I just don't have the energy to redo them right now. I've got to track down my Windows problem.

Stand by.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Paulr: My wife is an OBY/GYN with full partnership with the only partner practice in town and 2 other independant OBY/GYN's in a town of 65,000 people even if her office moves or another hospital is built you are only taking another 5 minutes to commute across town. We moved to Victoria to get away from the rat race in Houston. Out gasoline bills went from $350 a month in Houston to only $120 here and that include the price increases over the last four months. After living here for 2 years, I can never see myself living in a big city again unless some odd circumstances happen. I left a high stress job in which I never got a thank you. Taking care of 2 young kids ( 3 years and 4 months repsectively) is easy than being a contractor at NASA. My BP is lower noe.
 
OK...I have a question about solar power.
If we really promoted its use and many people started to use it, wouldn't we just create a enormous problem of hazardous battery waste? I mean if everyone has a bank of batteries that is a heck of a lot of batteries to dispose of. Seems that so called clean alternative energys may not be so nature friendly.

And regarding hydrogen........doesn't the collection of hydrogen require the use of energy? If we burn coal to attain hydrogen aren't we just shooting ourselves in the foot?

Am I wrong?
 
Batteries and their disposal/recycling is indeed an issue with solar power, however, we already have an awful lot of lead-acid batteries in cars, and the infrastructure for recycling them.

As for hydrogen, the idea is to electrolyze it with solar energy. Even if it's done with coal though, running a car on it avoids running the car on imported oil.
 
In addition, batteries are ONLY an issue IF you use them. It is easy to tie into the grid and reap the benefits of solar and the grid both. Batteries are usually only used by: wackos and people that live in montana (warning, these may be one and the same).
 
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[ QUOTE ]
AZMAN said:
OK...I have a question about solar power.
If we really promoted its use and many people started to use it, wouldn't we just create a enormous problem of hazardous battery waste? I mean if everyone has a bank of batteries that is a heck of a lot of batteries to dispose of. Seems that so called clean alternative energys may not be so nature friendly.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't NEED a bank of batteries. Besides my car, I don't use batteries with my solar system. But even if I did, no it would NOT create an enormous hazardous waste problem (relatively speaking - which is the only way that can make sense), unless you see burning coal as somehow good for the environment. I'd rather see millions of tons of batteries than one coal-burning power plant. We've come a long way in both battery chemistry AND in recycling.

[ QUOTE ]
And regarding hydrogen........doesn't the collection of hydrogen require the use of energy? If we burn coal to attain hydrogen aren't we just shooting ourselves in the foot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Didn't I cover that? Ah.. it was in one of my posts that never made it. Hell yes, H2 needs energy. Insane amounts of it. And if we're going to generate power, let's use it wisely - no matter HOW it is generated. We are absolutely shooting ourselves in the foot if we generate H2 with coal!

[ QUOTE ]
Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ] Not on that last part!
 
[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:
In addition, batteries are ONLY an issue IF you use them. It is easy to tie into the grid and reap the benefits of solar and the grid both.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yo, Turbo? We're starting to sound the same here... and that's scarin' me man!
 
[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:
In addition, batteries are ONLY an issue IF you use them. It is easy to tie into the grid and reap the benefits of solar and the grid both. Batteries are usually only used by: wackos and people that live in montana (warning, these may be one and the same).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey!! I am NOT a wakco! *runs off and hides in a corner and plays with a flashlight* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have only a small solar system, it's not big enough for a grid tie system as it's only around 120 watts, I run my kitchen light from it and store the unused power into 2 60ah batteries (24volt system)that I then connect to a 1200 VA sinewave UPS system for emergancy power.
I don't belive I have enough power to even run a grid tie inverter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Maby one day when I am finaly out of diapers I can get a "mans" solar system!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Or even a 2 or 3 kw wind generator as thats more usefull in michigan then solar is.
I live in a trailer park so I doubt I could install a wind turbine and not have the neighbors trying to slay me!
 
I'm mainly interested in powering my automobiles with H2 directly made from Solar Panels.
I realize its not the whole shootin match but it's a goal I would really like to achieve. I no longer wish to be a victim of oil and the people who control it.
 
flash: again it takes up to 60 Kwh's to make enough Hydrogen to go about 60 miles. That means in Darrels case you would need about 5 times the solar generation he already has. With older battery tech that equate to over 180 miles on a single charge and some of the newer stuff could go over 300. I also asked similar questions of FC reps at the cars show in Houston. They had no idea of the amount of power it takes to generate the hydrogen. their answer is to do it with solar power and 10 minutes latter they are the same people that say that it takes more energy to make a solar panel that it will ever generate.

Go figure.
 
I had shunned Solar tech for may years because of the "battery" issue and the need to change out most of you appliances to work righ with a battery system with minimal loses. The first time I heard about the power inverters being tied to the grid and buying power back from yhr grid at a reduced rate is when I saw the promised land.
 
Without the PUC subsidies, the economics of PV still look pretty dismal. Darrell has 20 panels of 160 watts each, so 3200 watts; at $5/watt that's $16K for the panels alone. If the panels were 1/3 the cost of the system, that's almost $50K before the subsidies. Counting it at 2500 watts and $4 a watt, that's $10K for panels, $30K total. The system is making 350 kwh/month averaged through the year, or about $50/month ($600/year) at .14/kwh. Simply putting the $30k in the bank at 3% interest makes $900/year.

So, this technology is still in the early adopter stage. But it's driving process improvements in making the solar cells, which is a good thing. As the cells get cheaper, the other stuff (inverters, mounting) will get cheaper with them. Once the cells get to $1/watt, they get a lot more interesting.
 
In the thread where you and I went round and round, didn't I tell you we were on the same side. We just diverge on a few issues. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
turbodog said:
In the thread where you and I went round and round, didn't I tell you we were on the same side. We just diverge on a few issues. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I diverge with most folks I know. No hard feelings!
 
[ QUOTE ]
led-lurker said:
They had no idea of the amount of power it takes to generate the hydrogen. their answer is to do it with solar power and 10 minutes latter they are the same people that say that it takes more energy to make a solar panel that it will ever generate.

Go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can do you one better. I attended the CARB hearing where a Ford rep stood up and first told us how Battery Electric Vehicles could never be clean because of all that nasty coal that is used to fuel them. In the next breath (literally, I have it on CD!) he told us how promising FCV tech was because the cars would be 100% clean, since they could be fueled with renewable electricity. HUH?

It will forever be a mystery to me how all BEVs need coal plants, and how all FCVs will be fuelled with wind and solar power.
 
[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
Without the PUC subsidies, the economics of PV still look pretty dismal. Darrell has 20 panels of 160 watts each, so 3200 watts; at $5/watt that's $16K for the panels alone. If the panels were 1/3 the cost of the system, that's almost $50K before the subsidies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hang on there, Paul! You've got some of the numbers intermixed. The actual before-rebate cost of my system is $20k installed. That's the real, retail price of everything, including labor for installation. My final cost after incentives was $10k. I would have struggled with the decision a bit longer if there were no incentives, but I likely would have still done it. The bragging rights are priceless. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do agree that for normal folks, the thought of PV without incentives is still daunting. But, as I attempted to point out (but I think the post was lost) the installed cost is falling at the same rate as the incentives. If all goes as planned (does it ever?) then we'll reach a place where the cost to the consumer remains the same as it is today, but with no more incentives.
 
will it e long before a ev can go 200 miles on charge if ya drive slower.im far from most things
 
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