Solar Power question for home

[AZMAN]

Darell,
Thanks for straightening me out on the battery issue.

One other question............what about the lifespan of solar arrays? Does replacement or maintenance add to the cost? As much as it can cost you wouldn't want to have to replace anything for a very lonng time.

 

[Darell]

My system is under warranty for ten years. There have been panels in service for over 50 years. I expect mine to produce at least 90% of their rated capacity for 30 years. I guess inverters are expected to last 10+ years. Really there is no maintenance until that time when one of the components may need to be replaced. Certainly replacement will add to the cost, and before I move into an old folks' home, I would only expect to have to replace the inverter. We'll see how that goes.

In the meantime, I wonder what will happen to the cost of grid power.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
raggie33 said:
will it e long before a ev can go 200 miles on charge if ya drive slower.im far from most things

[/ QUOTE ]
If you drive 45mph, you can go 200 miles in a 1996 Rav4EV. But with modern battery chemistry, you could do that same 200 miles at 90mph, and be just fine.

Nobody can answer how long it will be before YOU can go 200 miles (or ANY miles) in an EV. The fact of the matter is that we can do it today. Easily. The only hurdle is that NOBODY is making these cars. So when they're available depends entirely on when we demand them. Today we aren't demanding them - we're demanding bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic ICE vehilces.

 

[Wits' End]

On the question about longevity of solar panels, dittos to Darell.
Also that they are improving is w/o question. I have 1 100W panel that gives all my electric needs (except AA's and 123's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), don't ask about kerosene and wood though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif. When I got my panel a friend who had gotten his 4 about 6 years earlier said that even though his system was bigger on a cloudy day in Jan/Feb I would probably get more power as the newer panels got by with less direct sunlight far better.
As far as wind power, he has both and if he had to do it over he would not get wind. He has an 80 foot tower and has had to go up it many more times than originaly planned due to this problem and that. The 'moving parts free' and '"maintenence free"' solar system is a much better investment especially with the technology now available. Even in Northern lattitudes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif .

 

[Draco_Americanus]

Wit's End ? do you know what brand of wind generator you friend is useing? I have read that the newer systems are more reliable and have a mean time of about 10 years before an overhaul is needed. In my climate wind is far more usefull then solar is due to it being windy and cloudy a lot.
I ended up useing solar panels made by Uni-Solar due to their claims of better preformace in more cloudy cooler envorments. They don't perform as well as a crystaline panels in high heat though mine seem to work great here but as with the other panel types are next to useless in the winter.

Darell, Question? The tax incentives, are they a federal program or a state run program? Sadly Michigan offers no programs on a state level that I know of.

 

[Sean]

Thanks for all the info.

Darell, that's a great set up you have! I'll have to look into discounts in my area/state.

 

[flash....]

Ok... now I see your point... but are you speaking about burning hydrogen as a fuel or using it to generate power from a fuel cell?
Isn't burning H2 as a fuel more efficient than using it in a fuel cell?
I do remember when I did the electrolysis chlorinator design, having to pump a consistent 3 to 5 amps to get the required amount of chlorine for a pool.
The H2 is tossed away in the pool setups, Now I'm thinking this could also be another source for me. or vice \ versa, if you make H2 with a generator at home, you have all the free Chlorine you could ever want.
I would imagine my automobile setup would require more than this?

Quote from the site I listed above:
[ QUOTE ]
It does however take a substantial amount of time to produce sufficient Hydrogen to fill even a small tank.
As an example, it takes over 2 days of our generator running at full power, 24 hours a day, to fill our smallest "short range" tank. Range with these smaller tanks is now just under 300 miles and leaves some luggage/trunk room. (in a Vette) The Hydrogen generator is either powered by solar panels on the roof of your house, a wind turbine set-up ( both of which makes your Hydrogen fuel at virtually no cost ) or with standard 110 volt AC power for rapid refueling.

[/ QUOTE ]
And thats in a Vette. I drive 250-300 miles every 7 to 10 days. So Using solar all week may get the small tank filled giving me the next weeks fuel. at least thats what I'm hopeing. Plus the car can still run on pump gas if you fall behind on generating enough H2.

So my next real question would be... If I use Grid power to generate my H2 at home with an H2 generator, would the Grid power required cost more than the equivalent Gas at the pump to go the same distance?
I realize this is not an equation that can be solved in finite detail without some unknown variables calculated but, I am looking for a ballpark estimate. Why would the folks at the link I provided above do what they are doing if it was less efficient to "brew your own"

If all this does not work out on paper for me, I guess I will build a stil, grow tons of potatoes and make my own Alcohol for my cars and get real drunk to boot... Heh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif

 

[paulr]

Flash, the issue with fuel cells is you deal with inefficiency twice, once the inefficiency of making hydrogen from either fossil fuel or sunlight, and a second time when you turn the hydrogen back into electricity in the fuel cell. Each time around, you lose most of the energy that you bring. Batteries are much more efficient than fuel cells at returning their energy as electricity.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
Draco_Americanus said:
Darell, Question? The tax incentives, are they a federal program or a state run program? Sadly Michigan offers no programs on a state level that I know of.

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I recall, about 2/3 of the incentive was state, and the other 1/3 was a credit to my Federal income tax. There have been some utilities offering their OWN incentives in CA as well.

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
flash.... said:
Ok... now I see your point... but are you speaking about burning hydrogen as a fuel or using it to generate power from a fuel cell? Isn't burning H2 as a fuel more efficient than using it in a fuel cell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it sure is more efficient to just "burn" it in an ICE. And the auto makers could build those today! Hmmm. Makes you wonder why we're waiting on the fuel cell, doesn't it? Still, it won't be much (if any) more energy efficient than burning gasoline, but that's another ball of wax. I notice that the Vette site says that FCV will be higher efficiency than any ICE. Not true when you consider the entire fuel cycle. It IS true if you start counting from a the tank, and just go to the powered wheels.

So my next real question would be... If I use Grid power to generate my H2 at home with an H2 generator, would the Grid power required cost more than the equivalent Gas at the pump to go the same distance? I realize this is not an equation that can be solved in finite detail without some unknown variables calculated but, I am looking for a ballpark estimate.

My back of the envelope math says they'll be approximately the same. All will depend on future gas and electricity prices.

Why would the folks at the link I provided above do what they are doing if it was less efficient to "brew your own"

Hmm. Why does anybody do anything? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Really though - I can't figure out how the automakers are so easily convincing the public that H2 cars will be parked in their garages in a few years. I've noticed some, uh... issues, with that site you linked too. It sure all sounds good. Are they selling them? I know H2 ICE works, but we don't see them on the road. Making the H2 is a big, noisy, electricity-consuming chore. I'm still not sure what the fascination is with H2 in tanks vs. H2 in batteries. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

If all this does not work out on paper for me, I guess I will build a stil, grow tons of potatoes and make my own Alcohol for my cars and get real drunk to boot... Heh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif

Now THIS idea has legs...

 

[flash....]

Thanks Darell!
You make good sense!
I'm seeding the yard and collecting some copper.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif heh.

really, I am very interested in doing the H2 to ICE conversion idea.
Thanks for the back of the envelope math too... It's similar to mine.
I'd love to try this, if even just to say; "I'm off the pumps"
Man that would be cool.
Plus it gives me an excuse to buy some solar panels too.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Now, need to convince the boss. doh. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

 

[ledlurker]

flash: I got kicked off during my reply last night several times, so here I go again. I say Darrel make some comments already so I am still gonna copy and paste what I saved in Word last night

Last night response to you that got lost several times:

I have read and seen various tecnologies that produce hydrogen. I have seen numbers as low as 45 and as high as 80 to produce a Kg of Hydrogen. I looked at your website that you posted above and some red flags went off in my head. Some students at Texas A&M University in the 80's built a hydrogen powered car similar to the Corvette on the Website. They used a mid size car and had tanks with pellets that filled the entire trunk (and out the bottom since the bottom of the trunk was cut out). I no longer remember the chemistry behind it but they used a pellet/tank system to make it safer than compressed and/or liquified H2. Their range was on the order of 40 to 60 miles. The website you provided does not give any technical details. But basically they claim 2 orders of magnitude in improvement, I.E. Storage system 10 time smaller that delivers 10 time the range. It has been I while since I have done detailed thermodyamics, fluids and chemistry but when it is claimed that this pellet system can store more hydrogen than the liquid state, then I would love to see more details. Because if this is true and you get the range they claim then FCV's are dead meat. I bet their range claim is based on the Hydrogen system along with a full tank of gas (hence the name "Short Range Tanks). I want to see numbers on how much mass (kg) of H2 those 4 to 5 tanks can store (looks like the same size as scuba tanks), how much power (KwH) it takes to make and fill the tanks, etc, etc etc,. Their website reads like a investors pamplet (I.E. tells you how great they are without getting down to details. I no longer have any idea how much direct hydrogen is needed to run a ICE, but I think they chose the Corvette to be sexy.

BTW, not knocking the system. If you only drive about 40 miles a day and the H2 tanks could deliver this then it is still a neat system assuming you would not need a 20KW system of PV and/or wind turbines to make the H2.

Darrel: have you had time to look at Flash's link suppled above and put you opinion in.

Oh BTW: a Kg of H2 is rated to have the same energy potential as a gallon of gasoline. So if you have a small car that can get 50 to 60 miles to the gallon and convert the same car over to burn H2, then you should be able to go the same distance. If you have a system that can generate your H2 for you but have to rely on grid power only to make and it take 60 KwH of power to make it and transfer it to a pellet storage tank ( I am being generous here (numbers vary form 50 to 80Kwh) then it cost you $6 to go the 60 miles. The Toyota Prius can go the same distance on less than $3. That is why all of the FC people are saying it can be done with solar/wind/geothermal etc. Because in the end there is no way a free market can make it work. People will not double their fuel bills overnight. But things could change is gas supplies dried up or got real expensive like $5 a gallon and up.

 

[ledlurker]

Darrel: have you ever found out information on how much energy it take to make and distribute a gallon of gasoline?

 

[flash....]

Led-Lurker..
I also have the same questions of the folks who put that site together...
They are not comming off any details as of yet... I am like you, Skeptical.
But it sure would be cool if there is potential in the generation and conversion of ICE vehicles to support both pump gas and H2.

I guess I will have to be patient. you are welcome to send them E-mails too as maybe you guys can help garner some more specific info. so far they have not responded to an e-mail I sent.

 

[MicroE]

Regarding internal combustion of Hydrogen vs. fuel cells that use hydrogen...

A vehicle that is powered by a fuel cell will be much more efficient than one that burns the Hydrogen in an ICE. The ICE wastes the majority of the chemical energy as heat.
A fuel cell produces electricity directly and can turn an electric motor at each tire to move the vehicle. This also minimizes the energy lost in other ways (movement of the transmission and drive train components, radiator fan, water pump, etc.) The fuel cell vehicle also wouldn't waste energy while it idles in traffic. Like any good hybrid, it would use a battery to store energy produced while the vehicle is idling or braking.


If you haven't read it, I highly recommend
THE END OF OIL by Paul Roberts (published last month).

Thoroughly researched, fascinating, scary as h-ll!

 

[Darell]

[ QUOTE ]
MicroE said:
Regarding internal combustion of Hydrogen vs. fuel cells that use hydrogen...

A vehicle that is powered by a fuel cell will be much more efficient than one that burns the Hydrogen in an ICE. The ICE wastes the majority of the chemical energy as heat.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, we have the problem of how much of the system do you count when talking of "efficiency."

The potential may exist to make FCVs more efficient than H2 ICE... but with the few vehicles of both types that we have to study today, the ICE wins in the energy-in vs motive-power-out catagory.

Are you aware that a FCV at "idle" draws on the order of 3-4kW? My BEV draws 30-50W. An idling ICE draws less than an idling FCV. And if you get to use batteries in the FCV, the I get to use them in the ICE to increase efficiency too. I think we're only at odds here because of the difference between theory and current reality.

And we haven't even begun to talk of the expense differences! H2 ICE would cost a couple of dollars more than a gasoline ICE. A FCV will cost several hundred thousand dollars more.

Whoa... but back to solar.... My latest utility bill came. I couldn't be happier. I have turned the corner (into energy credit territory) with two months to go. Looks like I'd better start leaving the AC on so I don't have to hand over all this extra power to my utility. Anybody need their beer cooled? You can leave it in my living room.

Year to date (beginning last August) I now have a $40 credit for my energy usage. They won't pay me the credit, so it is use it or lose it, unfortunately. Still, if I don't use it, then I'm at least helping the neighbors use clean power.

 

[flash....]

Darell...
It seems like it should be a law that they pay you for credits resulting from backfeeding the grid.
Or if you closed your account, would they be required then to pay you off then?
Is there somewhere the people can go to find out what policys each state has reguarding crediting you back for excess power generation?

My power bills this time of year get way out of control as FL gets quite hot for a good long time.. This year I am having the entire underside of my roof sprayed with Isolene, which will essentially make my house roof more efficent than a 5 inch thick styrofoam cup. now my attic will be cooled as well and my power bills should show it. but PV panels make me green with envy. I would love to have your bill. I had to start doing something as my power bills now are more than a new Porsche monthly payment. Got plenty of sunshine here, maybe next year when If I can get the funds... I will go solar at home.

 

[paulr]

I think California once required utilities to pay retail rates for any electricity people fed back into the grid. They must have changed that somewhere along the way. I believe the utilities did squawk like mad about it. Of course they would have burned themselves pretty bad, if they'd had to pay wholesale rates during the Enron madness, when some peak electricity was costing them over $1 per kwh.

 

[Darell]

This whole "deregulation" thing is sure a mess, isn't it? Ug.

As far as I know, it is not up to the state to determine if TOU or net metering is available... nor is it up to the state to determine the price offered. I don't know this for sure. From my end, everything points to the utility setting all of these policies. Every utility in CA handles these things differently. I'm actually under one of the worst (IMO) utilities around. Just like having auto makers build alt fuel vehicles, my utility is doing this net metering stuff only under duress. A neighboring utility offers their own solar incentives and makes the net metering business seem like a walk through the park compared to what I'm putting up with.

I've been to Florida in the summer several times, Flash. We're just as hot here in the central valley, just not has humid. We have high 90's for days striaght, and usually get a couple of weeks above 100. I laugh when my coastal friends as if we have AC... as if it were an option. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif We do, however, cool off more in the winter than you do...

 

[ledlurker]

[ QUOTE ]
MicroE said:
Regarding internal combustion of Hydrogen vs. fuel cells that use hydrogen...

A vehicle that is powered by a fuel cell will be much more efficient than one that burns the Hydrogen in an ICE. The ICE wastes the majority of the chemical energy as heat.
A fuel cell produces electricity directly and can turn an electric motor at each tire to move the vehicle. This also minimizes the energy lost in other ways (movement of the transmission and drive train components, radiator fan, water pump, etc.) The fuel cell vehicle also wouldn't waste energy while it idles in traffic. Like any good hybrid, it would use a battery to store energy produced while the vehicle is idling or braking.


If you haven't read it, I highly recommend
THE END OF OIL by Paul Roberts (published last month).

Thoroughly researched, fascinating, scary as h-ll!

[/ QUOTE ]

As Darrel has stated and I have independently researched. Yes a FCV uses 3 to 4 Kw just sitting there. Lets put this info into perspective. If you had an average home that ran of a generator only you would need about 7.5 Kw capacity to meet your peak load on every thing in the house started up at the same time. Think like AC's have higher start up loads and the like. But you could easily run everything with only a 5 Kw generator. So if I had a FC to power my house I would need a 10 Kw capacity.

Ok, let me put it another way, My house is a energy hog because of its design and location 60% of my yearly power usage is from a 5 month time period. Last year I used 14,400 KwH of power. Lowest Power usage is 600 KwH my highest Month is 3000 KwH, my hourly average consumption is 1.64 KwH's (nationa average is 0.91 Kw)and a FCV is 3 to 4 Kw. FC's will need lots of improvement.

My two AC's will need replacing in a year or two, this will reduce my consumption the most. Critical lights are already CFL's. I am starting repairs to fix hurrican damage and poor building practices so my $10K is going to keep my house in good repair and not to make it energy effecient.