SSC vs. Cree

[AardvarkSagus]

Out of curiosity, why is it that so vast a majority of lights use the Cree LEDs when from all of my research it appears that the SSC version is better suited to flashlights? It has a better beam pattern that more closely resembles the Luxeon pattern from yesteryear, (a softer spill, brighter spot, and smoother transition) while keeping similar efficiency to Cree due to the identical dies being used in the chips.

Is there another factor that I am missing here? I don't even own a SSC based light due to the fact that so many of the popular ones use the Cree.

 

[Marduke]

The thermal characteristics is one big reason. Availability is another.

 

[michaelmcgo]

The Cree's are always a few steps ahead (aside from the P7 vs. MC-E) as far as brightness and efficiency is concerned. The SSC P4 is relatively ages old, while Cree has come out with the Q2, Q5, R2, etc. in the mean time. I believe the SSC P4 is very similar to the Cree P4, but the SSC's tend to be binned much higher. The Cree LEDs are manufactured with a metal ring surrounding the glass dome, this is (I believe) what causes the "Cree Rings". Cree's seem to be on the frontline as far as new LED tech goes.

 

[L.E.D.]

The thermal characteristics is one big reason. Availability is another.

+1
Note that the SSC uses the exact same emitter die as the Crees, the EZ1000 which is in fact made by Cree, as do a few other LED's. The thermal characteristics are the big thing here. The metal ring on the Cree XR-E is what makes the infamous Cree ring, but the Cree XP-E, which is even smaller than the Luxeon Rebel, should remove this ring and will probably make a smoother, Luxeon-like beam pattern as well. Just look at beamshots of the Inova InForce!

 

[glenda17]

IMO the SSC is superior for a flashlight then the Cree. I can't do detail work with a ring floating around as I work. I think if you research Cree LED's they were never intended for flashlights. The Chinese decided to use them in flashlights with improper reflectors and it led to the predicament we are in today.

Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Marduke]

IMO the SSC is superior for a flashlight then the Cree. I can't do detail work with a ring floating around as I work. I think if you research Cree LED's they were never intended for flashlights. The Chinese decided to use them in flashlights with improper reflectors and it led to the predicament we are in today.

Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.

Plenty of North American companies decided to use Cree's in flashlights also. SureFire, Energizer, Rayovac, Brinkman, ColeMan, Leatherman just to name a few all have models with Cree's.

Also, Cree has already come out with improved products suitable for flashlights, such as the XP-E.


BTW, use a Cree with no optics at all for detail work and you'll have a perfectly smooth beam with zero artifacts.

 

[DM51]

Belongs in LED, not LED Flashlights.

 

[glenda17]

Also, Cree has already come out with improved products suitable for flashlights, such as the XP-E.

.

Are there any flashlights I should try with that has the XP-E, or can you buy an XP-E star anywhere?

 

[AardvarkSagus]

Are there any flashlights I should try with that has the XP-E, or can you buy an XP-E star anywhere?

The only light I am aware of actually using the XP-E at the moment is the Inova Inforce (www.inova-mil.com). Other than that, I'm not sure. I know that Neoseikan has toyed around with the idea of putting them into the next iteration of the Spartanian, but I am not certain where that lies.

Belongs in LED, not LED Flashlights.

I beg to differ on this thread however since it is specifically regarding how the different LEDs perform in flashlights, but since you are the moderator, I won't put up a big fight. :D

 

[DM51]

I beg to differ on this thread however since it is specifically regarding how the different LEDs perform in flashlights, but since you are the moderator, I won't put up a big fight. :D

No big fight from me on this, either. You may be right, and I'll certainly listen to other opinions. However it is probably a discussion about the difference in characteristics of the LED types, not the flashlights, so doesn't it belong here?

 

[yellow]

You can never get a real technical "answer" to Cree vs. Seoul, it will always be based on the posters impression .

f.e.: not taking into account the positive slug on the P4 (ridiculus) and the parallel driven P7 (not going into detail here) ...
... EVERY of my attempts to build lights with Seouls led to bad ones.

If lucky the output is only very much on the blue side, getting even more blue when raising the current (to be still within datasheet value).
Even when the ratings (which are a joke, do not look at the highest possible lumen from that bin, look at the average or the guaranteed lowest --> here they are always way below the matching cree, which also has the whiter light not changing at more power) are much higher, the (older!) Crees won easily, just by comparing with the eyes ... which means there is quite a difference, as our eyes are not this good.

Compared to that, all my Crees - even the "blue" tinted ones - give a nice white beam,
no rings because I use good reflectors

My best mod so far, a SF 6P modded in April 2006 with a Cree XR-E P4 and 18650 still is brighter than any newer light I have gotten till now. The tint is white (I was able to choose it, which I am not with Seoul).
With all my trustfires, Jetbeam, L-Mini, Xtar, ..., I usually grab the modded 6P
imho most of the good performance comes from the sandwich shoppe 19 mm reflector (which I would have no corresponding one when using a Seoul)

... but do I know if I maybe have made mistakes when using Seouls?
Probably their poor performance is just my fault?
:thinking:
... You see: simply impression

(but I am sure You will get a whole lot more votes for "inconsistent performance" for Seouls)

 

[yellow]

Hopefully Cree will come out with a better quality product. The MC-E has terrible optics vs the P7, so I'm not holding my breath.

You say the direct driven P7, with no special optic/reflector and no good driver for driving the wrong wired led, is better to the serial wired where trusted and proven and small drivers are available around for years?
;)
better ask the modders ;) ;)

I dont get that part with the "terrible" optics :thinking:
There simply are NONE at the moment, or?
For both quad-led

in theory the smaller size of the MC-E is a plus
(and as long as there are only crap quality P7 or MC-E lights, with everything (driver, reflector, light itself) being heavy crap, it makes no sense to argue what led might be better, or?

 

[asdalton]

The SSC is a better match for the types of reflectors that worked well with the Luxeon, such as the stock C/D Mag reflector. However, the SSC is a relatively large emitter that doesn't seem to give as much throw for a given lumen output than the Luxeon or Cree.

For example, the Novatac lights are too floody for my preferences, although some people like them.

A well-designed reflector in combination with a Cree emitter throws well. Examples of this include the Pelican 7060 and the Fenix TK20. And if you want to see what a Cree LED can do with a good optic, there's the Surefire E2DL. :D

By the way, the SSC P4 is a model identifier that shouldn't be confused with the Cree P4 output bin.

 

[Buck91]

Yellow, what SSC's have you used? I've used various bins from USV0H, U2SW0I to U2SV0H, and likewise have found various tints from fairly blue and weak (U2SW0I) to a virtually perfect tint with excellent color rendition and goo brightness (USV0H in a MagLED 3D).

The positive slug is really a non-issue since a little bit of AA on the base to secure the led will electrically insulate it as well.

I'm a huge fan of the SSC P4 beam- very smooth- plus you can bring a lot of lights back from the scrap pile (for example my mountain biking bar light, Cat Eye Triple Shot. Worthless with stock Lux3 but top-notch with U2SWOH and Khatod 20mm reflectors)...

 

[phantom23]

The Cree's are always a few steps ahead (aside from the P7 vs. MC-E) as far as brightness and efficiency is concerned.

As it has been said they use the same dies, just SSC has "wider" binning. Current highest bin is U2 - up to 118lm@350mA (R2 range! and Cree has still problems with R2's - no dies=no higher SSC/Cree bins). And why P7 can be brighter, and P4 can't?

If lucky the output is only very much on the blue side, getting even more blue when raising the current (to be still within datasheet value).

You had no luck with bad source. SSC has similar tints as Cree. My new U2SWOH is really bright and has no blue tint at all even @1,2A.

in theory the smaller size of the MC-E is a plus
(and as long as there are only crap quality P7 or MC-E lights, with everything (driver, reflector, light itself) being heavy crap, it makes no sense to argue what led might be better, or?

Smaller size of MC-E is a " - " because 4 dies and such small lens give really weird and hard to focus beam pattern. It is easier to fit to current reflectors but that's all. Beam will be more floody with more artifacts and more noticeable donut hole.

 

[jtr1962]

Four things in favor of the Cree:

1) More amenable to overdriving (SSC get angry blue at 2 amps, Crees don't)
2) Glass dome doesn't pick up dust like the SSC gummy bear dome
3) Color rendering seems a little better, especially the reds
4) Thermal pad is electrically neutral

Three things in favor of the SSC:

1) Beam profile similar to Luxeon
2) Generally less expensive and more readily available than Cree
3) There is a line of high CRI LEDs (Cree has neutrals and warm white, but none with phosphor specifically designed for higher color rendering)

Each has its uses.

 

[TexLite]

Out of curiosity, why is it that so vast a majority of lights use the Cree LEDs when from all of my research it appears that the SSC version is better suited to flashlights?

Aardvark,

I think what you'll find many times when a question like this is posted is that you will get misinformation from some along with bits of fact sprinkled in here and there by others.

The best you can hope for here is a clear,unbiased and factual response such as jtr1962's directly above.

As jtr1962 said,both have their advantages.It would be nice to see a "hybrid" combining the best features of both.

-Michael

 

[Marduke]

As it has been said they use the same dies, just SSC has "wider" binning. Current highest bin is U2 - up to 118lm@350mA (R2 range! and Cree has still problems with R2's - no dies=no higher SSC/Cree bins). And why P7 can be brighter, and P4 can't?

However, when you buy out of an SSC bin, you buy out of the bottom, not the top. So SSC cannot produce R2 level efficiency either.

And yes, SSC buys Cree EZ1000 dies.

 

[saabluster]

However, when you buy out of an SSC bin, you buy out of the bottom, not the top.

Curious. Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

 

[Marduke]

Curious. Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

The average flux historically fell well below the midpoint of the bin. You can look up that data if you so desire.

The U bin tops out near R2 efficiency, when in fact to this day they cannot product any quantity of such high efficiency emitters, let alone years ago when the bin was outlined.

Also, why do you think they continually spilt their "premium" bins, only after a period of product development? Only after they can produce a reasonable number of emitters that fall over the halfway point, they split the bin, so they can begin selling a new "premium" emitters that statistically fall in the bottom of the new premium bin.