Student Loan "Relief"

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Stress_Test

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Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?! I'm totally baffled by this mentality. Did they really think that a LOAN was just free money? They seem to think it should be anyway.

Just read an article where they interviewed some people with loan debt. Only ONE out of the six interviewees actually mentioned working to pay off the loan, the others just had some strange sense of entitlement that the loan debt they signed up for should just disappear.

Like THIS person:

"So today, I am saddened by the news, but I'm still here for the fight because I understand that there are other avenues to cancel student debt for myself and my family."


Those other avenues, she said, should come from Biden, whose campaign promised to cancel student debt.

"...other avenues to cancel student debt..."

Like maybe, I dunno, PAY IT OFF???

Oh, no; instead they want to put people in office who will pay their debt for them. Where do they think THAT money will come from?

Good lord. And these are people who went to college. We are in deep doo-doo if this is representative of the rest.
 

IMA SOL MAN

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Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?! I'm totally baffled by this mentality. Did they really think that a LOAN was just free money? They seem to think it should be anyway.

Just read an article where they interviewed some people with loan debt. Only ONE out of the six interviewees actually mentioned working to pay off the loan, the others just had some strange sense of entitlement that the loan debt they signed up for should just disappear.

Like THIS person:



"...other avenues to cancel student debt..."

Like maybe, I dunno, PAY IT OFF???

Oh, no; instead they want to put people in office who will pay their debt for them. Where do they think THAT money will come from?

Good lord. And these are people who went to college. We are in deep doo-doo if this is representative of the rest.
Ahem, ah, yeah, there are "other avenues". Teachers, civil service workers and I think a few other categories have legal provisions in the law to have certain amounts forgiven for working in some occupations and/or in certain geographic locations.

It could be that this sense of entitlement to having the loans forgiven may come from seeing the politicians and bureaucrats **** away billions to trillions of dollars of tax money for things that don't benefit US citizens. How much money in armaments did Biden abandon in Afghanistan? How much money in aid have we provided Ukraine? Do you have any idea how much money our state department gives away to other nations? Do you have any idea how much federal tax money is being spent to support the illegal invaders being escorted into our nation by the Biden administration?

I'm not saying their entitlement attitude is right, but I can kind of understand how they feel that federal money is infinite, and might as well be spent to benefit some US citizens instead of gifting it out to the rest of the world.

Then there is the fact that Biden promised it to them to get them to vote for him. They voted him into office, now they feel like he needs to fulfill his promise to them, that was the deal. They got taken for fools, and they don't want to admit it to themselves and others.
 

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jtr1962

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Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?! I'm totally baffled by this mentality. Did they really think that a LOAN was just free money? They seem to think it should be anyway.

Just read an article where they interviewed some people with loan debt. Only ONE out of the six interviewees actually mentioned working to pay off the loan, the others just had some strange sense of entitlement that the loan debt they signed up for should just disappear.

Like THIS person:



"...other avenues to cancel student debt..."

Like maybe, I dunno, PAY IT OFF???

Oh, no; instead they want to put people in office who will pay their debt for them. Where do they think THAT money will come from?

Good lord. And these are people who went to college. We are in deep doo-doo if this is representative of the rest.
You're ignoring a lot of stuff here. Let's start with the fact that loaning 5 or 6 figures to people who mostly never managed more than their allowance is by definition predatory lending. If we're going to have student loans at all, it should be to the parents of the student, not the student. The parents would also be in a far better position to judge if the degree was really worth the money they would be borrowing. That in turn might keep college costs in check.

Next thing is the fact the terms you signed on for are rarely what you end up with. The lenders and Congress have altered the contract after you signed. For example, this is what happened to me:

1) When I signed my student loans they were dischargable in bankruptcy. While I intended to repay them, the fact I could declare bankruptcy if I was unable to gave me peace of mind. Congress made it virtually impossible to discharge student loans under bankruptcy a few years later.

2) My loans were originally subject to a 10 year statute of limitations. If I was unable to pay for 10 years, at that point they would no longer be legally collectible. Congress changed this after I signed. All other types of debt are still subject to a statute of limitations which varies from 2 to 10 years, depending upon the state and type of debt. No reason to treat student loans differently than other types of debt.

3) My promissory notes clearly capped collection fees at 20% of the original principal. Far more than this was added in fees when the loans went into default because I was unable to find work right out of college.

4) I was supposed to have been given a 9 month grace period after graduating before I had to start making payments. The bank started asking for payments right after I graduated.

In short, in many cases the terms of the contract are not adhered to by the lenders, as was the case with me. I never would have signed if I knew Congress would change things after the fact, or the lenders would add far more fees than stated in the promissory note.

Third, we have predatory collection fees. Again, this isn't what you signed up for according to the promissory note. If you default on your loan, it gets sold to another lender, and 20% to 40% gets tacked on to the balance as a "fee". If you default again, which is more likely given the higher balance and monthly payments, the process repeats. That's why people often owe 5 to 10 times what they originally borrowed despite decades of payments. These fees clearly violate usury laws, as well as promissory notes which typically cap total collection fees at 20% of the original principal. The system as it exists now makes it impossible to pay off your loans once they go into default. It's designed to keep you paying for life.

Note that the government doesn't see a dime of these fees. That's why student loan forgiveness will cost taxpayers a lot less than most people think. The only losers will be the collection agencies who until now have been making bank on student loans. Many of those who own collection agencies are heavy campaign contributors to the GOP. They have a vested interest in stopping any type of loan forgiveness because it would end their gravy train. Sadly, SCOTUS went along with them.

If any other type of loan were subject to the terms and fees of student loans the courts would have intervened long ago. Maybe it's time for a case challenging these illegal fees. They should all be refunded with interest.

Finally, other countries pay for higher education for those who merit it. This doesn't mean paying for a degree in underwater basket weaving while you party for 4 years. Usually, you need to maintain a certain GPA in order to continue to get your school fully paid for. We should do that here. Replace loans with grants, require colleges accepting financial aid students to take a $10K or $15K annual grant as payment in full for tuition, room, and board. No more student loans, no more parental loans. That fixes the student loan problem going forward. In the meantime, we still need to address the fact many people have loans which they can never repay due to the predatory nature of the system. That's where loan cancellation comes in.

There are still two avenues for having loans partially or fully forgiven. One is to use the 1965 Higher Education Act to enact loan forgiveness. This seems more likely to stand up to court challenges. The other is the new income driven repayment plan. Payments will be capped at 5% of discretionary income, and the loan will be forgiven after 20 years of payments (10 years if the original amount was $10K or less). Payments already made would be retroactively counted towards the total. This would wipe the slate clean for lots of borrowers, me included. No word on whether or not payments made in excess of 20 years (or 10 if you borrowed $10K or less) would be refunded but they should be. If so, I might have a large check coming to me.
 
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jtr1962

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I'm not saying their entitlement attitude is right, but I can kind of understand how they feel that federal money is infinite, and might as well be spent to benefit some US citizens instead of gifting it out to the rest of the world.
That's part of it. Unlike other countries where tax dollars go to things that broadly benefit most citizens, like free (at the point of service) medical care, free education, public transit, etc., in the US a lot of tax money goes to things most people aren't eligible for. That's why it was refreshing to see pandemic aid like stimulus payments, enhanced child tax credits, enhanced unemployment insurance, and the eviction moratorium. These things all helped mostly working class people for a change. So would student loan forgiveness. If we're going to spend money, I'd rather we spend it for stuff like this, than throw it away on pointless wars. The same people complaining about student loan forgiveness are silent about the $6+ trillion we wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan on false pretenses of WMDs.
 

bykfixer

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I worked with a guy who said he was voting for X because he promised free college and pay off existing loans. Said he was in over a hundred grand. I told him that's cool wit me cause I'll just quit my job and go back to school and he could pay for it. Strangely enough he didn't seem to think that was ok.

But see I was stupid and paid for mine as I went to a college I COULD AFFORD TO GO TO. I sent my kids to a college I COULD AFFORD. Duh!

I bought a house I COULD AFFORD a car I COULD AFFORD, not some luck but by thinking ahead and sticking to a budget things just work out.
 
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jz6342

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As conservative as I am I feel there are two things Americans shouldn't have worry about - healthcare and education. The debate on healthcare will continue ad nauseum but I feel there has to be a better way that does not involve government controlling it - just look at the VA if you want a peek into what healthcare would look like under their control! As for education I think if you want to go to college you should be able to go, no matter your financial situation. An educated society is a beneficial society. My idea would be that if you go to school on society's dime, you owe society an equal number of years of service - military, Peace Corp, etc. You want to be a doctor, you'll serve your first eight years in underserved communities. The current "student loan" process sets people up for failure and is onerous at best.

I'll get off my soap box now:knight:
 

bykfixer

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That's part of it. Unlike other countries where tax dollars go to things that broadly benefit most citizens, like free (at the point of service) medical care, free education, public transit, etc., in the US a lot of tax money goes to things most people aren't eligible for. That's why it was refreshing to see pandemic aid like stimulus payments, enhanced child tax credits, enhanced unemployment insurance, and the eviction moratorium. These things all helped mostly working class people for a change. So would student loan forgiveness. If we're going to spend money, I'd rather we spend it for stuff like this, than throw it away on pointless wars. The same people complaining about student loan forgiveness are silent about the $6+ trillion we wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan on false pretenses of WMDs.
I doesn't matter if America spent 677 guhzillion dollars on battleships for Martians, fact is you the citizen sign a document to pay back $100,000 then pay it back. Be it for the worlds largest birthday cake or college or a vacation around the world, agreeing to pay back what you borrowed is the correct thing to do. It's real simple. Technicalities are just excuses to not honor a commitment and those who shirk that cannot be trusted at work, in relationships, in life. Period.
 

jtr1962

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As conservative as I am I feel there are two things Americans shouldn't have worry about - healthcare and education. The debate on healthcare will continue ad nauseum but I feel there has to be a better way that does not involve government controlling it - just look at the VA if you want a peek into what healthcare would look like under their control!
Well, our private, for-profit healthcare system hasn't been working out so well. I personally haven't been to a doctor since I got kicked off my parents insurance when I turned 21. Can't afford out of pocket, and can't afford insurance. At least in 4.5 years I'll finally be covered under Medicare.

Healthcare should be funded through taxes and free at the point of service. Who actually runs it (government or private industry) can be debated but other countries at least figured out the best way to pay for it is via taxes. That also gives government an incentive to push low-cost lifestyle changes over drugs in order to reduce costs. Our for-profit system on the other hand favors the most expensive interventions, even if they're not particularly effective. Look at the big business treating (but not curing) cancer as an example.

As for education I think if you want to go to college you should be able to go, no matter your financial situation. An educated society is a beneficial society.
Agreed.

My idea would be that if you go to school on society's dime, you owe society an equal number of years of service - military, Peace Corp, etc. You want to be a doctor, you'll serve your first eight years in underserved communities.
Personally I think the way you pay back society for funding your education is via the higher taxes you'll be paying on your higher earnings throughout your lifetime. Service requirements will make some people reluctant to attend college. The military and Peace Corps both generally require relocating, for example. We already have ROTC but it's not for everyone.
The current "student loan" process sets people up for failure and is onerous at best.
Student loans were a bad concept from day one. You don't loan large sums of money to people just reaching majority age who can easily be brainwashed by the slick brochures colleges send. An even worse idea was getting private enterprise involved in the loan process. Of course they'll figure out ways to skim ever more off the top for themselves.
 

alpg88

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How many of those never graduated? never worked a day in the field of their major? I know plenty of such people, went to expensive schools, because they believed they had to, they believed once they graduated they will be automatically set for life.
I know plenty of such people, wasted years of their lives, tens of thousands tuition, and now work in MCD and demand raising minimum wage to what many skilled professions pay. and pay off their loan. Our education system, mid, high schools is a huge fail, it teaches no responsibility, zero.
 

jtr1962

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I doesn't matter if America spent 677 guhzillion dollars on battleships for Martians, fact is you the citizen sign a document to pay back $100,000 then pay it back. Be it for the worlds largest birthday cake or college or a vacation around the world, agreeing to pay back what you borrowed is the correct thing to do. It's real simple. Technicalities are just excuses to not honor a commitment and those who shirk that cannot be trusted at work, in relationships, in life. Period.
Did you read my post? The issue isn't paying back what the paper you signed said you had to. Rather, it's paying back multiples of it because the terms were unilaterally changed by the lender after the fact. You sign a mortgage, you know you'll be paying x dollars in interest on any outstanding balance. If you can't make payments, the interest, and only the interest, will continue to accrue, although sometimes banks will waive some of it if you demonstrate hardship. Imagine instead if you missed a few months payments, your mortgage got resold, and now you suddenly owed 40% more. At that point even if you decided to sell your house, it wouldn't be enough to pay back the bank. That's the reality with the current student loan system.

There are all sorts of reasons beyond one's control as to why they might not be able to honor a commitment. Involuntarily unemployment is one. Disability or illness or needing to care for family members are others.

Finally, there's the issue of age. Turning 18 doesn't suddenly make one a fully functioning adult capable of fully understanding what they're doing. You don't fully develop adult reasoning skills and impulse control until at least your mid 20s. On that basis alone loaning large sums of money to people who are barely adults with no collateral is a horrible idea. Yes, people that age can and do get mortgages and car loans, but at least if things go south for them they can pay off the loan by selling the car or house. Student loans are predatory by definition. I honestly didn't know what I was getting into or I never would have signed the paper. Remember up until that time my only experience with money was managing the $1 a week allowance I got. On top of that, I had teachers telling everyone to borrow for school. If you don't pay they'll stop bothering you after a few years. Maybe it worked that way for them, but the terms got a lot harsher by the time it was my turn. Bottom line, it's easy to dupe 17 or 18 year olds into doing stupid things. Student loans is an entire cottage industry founded on that concept.

Government helped create the predatory system which resulted in the current crisis. They let greedy companies collect the loans with little or no oversight. That's why government needs to be the one to fix it. Part of the fix is some loan forgiveness. The rest is ensuring this never, ever happens again. Start by getting rid of student loans altogether going forward.
 
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jtr1962

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How many of those never graduated? never worked a day in the field of their major? I know plenty of such people, went to expensive schools, because they believed they had to, they believed once they graduated they will be automatically set for life.
I know plenty of such people, wasted years of their lives, tens of thousands tuition, and now work in MCD and demand raising minimum wage to what many skilled professions pay. and pay off their loan. Our education system, mid, high schools is a huge fail, it teaches no responsibility, zero.
The biggest failure of colleges in this country is their lack of resources to find their graduates jobs. Basically, they're happy to take your money but once you get the degree, you're on your own finding work. Some people are good at that, most aren't. Those with wealthy parents generally have connections which get them good jobs. Those who grew up poor, like myself, lack those connections. Job placement should be included in the price of tuition. You simply tell them the location where you're looking for work, and they find potential employers for you. They also teach you how to do better during the job interview, or better yet find an employer willing to hire you based solely on your academic record. Instead, these colleges send people out into the real world totally unprepared. Of course that sets them up for failure.

I actually did what I studied but as a self-employed person. I couldn't find a job in my field, so I created a niche for myself. I certainly would have had more luck had I gone to graduate school. Unfortunately, the amount I was in debt already just for my BSE degree was frightening. I wasn't about to take on more tens of thousands in debt. My parents didn't have the money, either. My mother went out on disability before my senior year in college. I actually wasn't even sure I'd be able to graduate given the financial situation.
 

thermal guy

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Well, our private, for-profit healthcare system hasn't been working out so well. I personally haven't been to a doctor since I got kicked off my parents insurance when I turned 21. Can't afford out of pocket, and can't afford insurance. At least in 4.5 years I'll finally be covered under Medicare.

Healthcare should be funded through taxes and free at the point of service. Who actually runs it (government or private industry) can be debated but other countries at least figured out the best way to pay for it is via taxes. That also gives government an incentive to push low-cost lifestyle changes over drugs in order to reduce costs. Our for-profit system on the other hand favors the most expensive interventions, even if they're not particularly effective. Look at the big business treating (but not curing) cancer as an example.


Agreed.


Personally I think the way you pay back society for funding your education is via the higher taxes you'll be paying on your higher earnings throughout your lifetime. Service requirements will make some people reluctant to attend college. The military and Peace Corps both generally require relocating, for example. We already have ROTC but it's not for everyone.

Student loans were a bad concept from day one. You don't loan large sums of money to people just reaching majority age who can easily be brainwashed by the slick brochures colleges send. An even worse idea was getting private enterprise involved in the loan process. Of course they'll figure out ways to skim ever more off the top for themselves.
Americans health care only works if you dont😁
 

bykfixer

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I definitely agree that when cronie capitalistic government involvement became involved it led to a big problem. I remember a president once touting how much "profit" the federal government would now make when they started handling college loans. That was sometime around 2009. And that led to a huge rise in tuition as well. College sports also plays a role. One school near me hired a famous coach for their basketball program that brings in lots of revenue through souveniers and tv contracts. They paid the guy $18million over 5 years. Not coincindently the tuition for that school DOUBLED the following year. That led to the school being financially unaffordable for a lot of people in my area.
 

pnwoutdoors

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Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?! I'm totally baffled by this mentality.

The local criminal cretins in my town come take people's vehicles, without any regard to damage, threat or need to "pay back" their owners. Same with peaches and blueberries at the grocery, etc.

I, too, cannot imagine how a person corrupts their moral compass so completely as to imagine others should pay for their willing acquisition of some product or service.

Hell, I'd like a Ferrari Purosangue or 575M Maranello.

Said even better ...

"Get the F outta here. $15 thousand? And I need a BJ from Christy Turlington ..."

- Joey Knish (as played by John Turturro), in the 1998 film Rounders, when a friend asks him to pay for his gambling losses.
 
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