Student Loan "Relief"

[pnwoutdoors]

Student Loan "Relief"

Here's another serious problem I have with this concept: per the Constitution, it is CONGRESS that has sole authority to raise monies (aka, the "power of the purse"). Not the Executive. Not the hired help. By what authority or right does some non-representative lone person imagine it's constitutionally lawful to effectively undermine the revenue efforts that Congress authorized, via such miscreant behavior?

In short, it's another socialist wealth transfer scheme, such "blessings" bestowed. It's MY and YOUR money that's being handed out. Yet it's the borrowers who've "eaten the cake." Can't have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes. Or, well, with light-fingered hired help, you can. Bless his heart.

The little SOB taught constitutional law for a time, at the University of Pennsylvania. He needs a legal refresher, I think, if he actually imagines the authority of Congress wasn't granted or any authority to the Executive was. C-, "professor." Get a job.

 

[DRW]

Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?!

Pretty simple, someone said vote for me and I'll cancel your debt.

Most of us knew it wouldn't fly, and it won't.

 

[idleprocess]

For a good four generations the cultural messaging has been consistent: go to college for a better future, so to college increasing numbers of Americans went. Demand outstripped supply so prices went up, as did the cost:benefit ratio. But that message was largely unwavering, entrenched into the job market, welded into primary education - largely rebranded as college preparation. Indeed with so many products of university education doing the hiring in corporate America it was almost inevitable that a bachelor's degree would become a de facto job-hunting license in the white collar fields the culture leans towards so heavily.

Hiring in Corporate America is a notoriously opaque thing involving self-deception about what any given role truly needs, purple squirrel hunts, and a surprising number of fictional job listings. Experienced people lacking academic pedigree can walk into the job and succeed, but those on the outside will need generally superfluous qualifications before their resume is given grudging consideration. More than once I've encountered listings for my own role and the laundry list of requirements was most impressive: no one presently doing the job would qualify. And at least one of those listings was HR performing resume-gathering exercises for the purposes of surveying the labor market as there were no requisitions to fill leading me to believe that so many breathless news reports about how industry cannot find enough qualified people to hire for [role] has been greatly inflated.

Thus I've some sympathy for folks struggling with student loans. The dream they were fed into by many many elements in society at an impressionable age was broken: the means to repay the debt it was to provide did not materialize while the debt remains very real. And while there are always causeheads that racked up 6-7 figures of debt pursuing a course of post-graduate studies in something useless - i.e. 20th century Sanrio Iconography in Panamanian indigenous peoples - with no intention of working outside of academia, most use 'useless' liberal arts degrees as a job-hunting license in industry.

However the SCOTUS has disagreed and that's the final word on this specific policy thrust. I do find the sound and fury addressed at individual remittances (relief, stimulus, etc) to be curious in the face of near-silence at the order of magnitude greater value of same remittances to industry.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

There are some serious misconceptions in the anti-loan forgiveness camp that keep getting repeated. Most of the falicies have already been addressed, and I apologize if the ones I'm about to point out have already been made. But here we go, in no particular order:
1. The USA is the ONLY developed nation that does not have some form of free higher education. That means that everyone has to secure funding, whether it be from loans, grants, trust funds, whatever.
2. The price of higher education has skyrocketed, even when adjusted for inflation. Just as an example, and I don't have the current figures for a full load at the University of Georgia (where I went), but in August of 1990 when I started (dating myself here) the fees were $692 for a quarter. Three quarters were a full year if you didn't go in the summer. I had 17 quarter hours, 15 was a full load. Just using the CPI from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (which underestimates the inflation actually) that comes to $1,599.21 in May of 2023 dollars. So, a full year at UGA should cost no more than approximately $4800. I'm betting it costs more right now, if you pay out of pocket. And those prices are continuing to rise at an insane amount every year. At this point, if my daughter wants to go to college, we'll have to emigrate to Europe. Gone are the days of getting a summer job to pay for university!
3. People keep complaining about having to pay for other people's education. YOU aren't paying for it. It won't mean increased taxes either. And even if you were, it's a good investment in the future. Which brings me to my next point.
4. An educated populace is a competitive populace. You want to compete with the likes of China? Don't discourage people from going to college. And saddling them with crippling debt, will do just that.
5. The only people being "hurt" by student debt forgiveness will be the predatory loan processors in places like Nebraska. They can find a new vocation, a new demographic to suck dry.
6. We'll gladly spend billions on a new wonder weapon. Or we'll bail out GM and Chrysler (who should have been allowed to fail if we actually had a free market system). But to allow people to be able to afford a place to live and put food on the table, that's too much to ask.
7. It isn't just Gen Z people, which seems to be the target of ire here. I'm a Gen X'er. And I know many others of my generation that are STILL paying off student loans. And they are hard workers and have worked. I don't know if you all have been looking at the news lately, but there have been some world events that have wrecked the economy over the past 15 years. And you know what, sh*t happens. Economy collapses halfway through your academic career, then you are stuck in wage jobs. What if your industry dries up? Is that the loan taker's fault? What if they become disabled?
8. And this one really irks me. Everyone wants to point at the "under-water basket weaving" degrees. Yes, some degrees are more marketable than others. But does anyone really want to live in a world in which there are only business degrees? Think hard about that before you answer.
9. And there are some career paths that only become "profitable" after an advanced degree, Masters or PhD. But if you aren't in a position to obtain those because maybe family obligations or whatever, then you also are in the same position as a recent graduate.

These aren't points to tick people off or start a flame war. I just want to point out some things that my conservative friends here seem to have forgotten. Don't fall for the rhetoric that doesn't stand up to the weakest of tests. Honestly, if higher education were truly free, there would be a lot fewer people for that sort of false narrative to take root.

Edit: Looked it up, for the 2023/2024 school year, the base tuition at the University of Georgia is $4,895 per semester ($9,790 per year), that doesn't include fees. Frankly I am surprised it isn't higher, but still twice the cost it was in 1990. https://osfa.uga.edu/costs/

But that doesn't include another thing that has gone through the roof in the interim years, housing, books, transportation, etc. So, yes, university is insanely more expensive than it was even 30 years ago.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

Pretty simple, someone said vote for me and I'll cancel your debt.

Most of us knew it wouldn't fly, and it won't.

Only because of a concerted effort by Republicans and illiterate Trump judges.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

Americans health care only works if you dont😁

Doesn't work then either. We have the most expensive healthcare system in the entire world, not the best. In Switzerland, the most expensive country in Europe, an operation will cost about 1/6th as much as here. Why? Insurance companies. Any system that is for-profit is doomed to be expensive and complicated. This isn't 'working' for anyone.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

I do find the sound and fury addressed at individual remittances (relief, stimulus, etc) to be curious in the face of near-silence at the order of magnitude greater value of same remittances to industry.

Removal of incentives to poor choices (or choices that don't "pan out") isn't often a good thing. At whatever level. Not with S&L's and banking. Not with general businesses. Not with buyers of any basic product or service, whomever the buyer.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

How many of those never graduated? never worked a day in the field of their major? I know plenty of such people, went to expensive schools, because they believed they had to, they believed once they graduated they will be automatically set for life.
I know plenty of such people, wasted years of their lives, tens of thousands tuition, and now work in MCD and demand raising minimum wage to what many skilled professions pay. and pay off their loan. Our education system, mid, high schools is a huge fail, it teaches no responsibility, zero.

That is a serious over simplification of a very complex problem. Teaching responsibility isn't the "responsibility" of education. The world changes a lot faster than it used to, and it is accelerating all the time. You might start your freshman year in a hot new field in which there are many openings. But after 4 years, you find out that the market if flooded with everyone else that had the same idea four years prior. Or perhaps there is a recession? Or perhaps any multitude of other personal tragedies befall you.

By "MCD" I take it that you mean McDonald's? Raising the minimum wage is a separate issue. We shouldn't even be, as a nation, speaking of the minimum wage, but a living wage. There is no excuse whatsoever to allow someone working full time to be so underpaid they can't afford food and housing. But here we are in the richest nation on earth, doing just that.

So, THAT is where the FAIL is.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

I doesn't matter if America spent 677 guhzillion dollars on battleships for Martians, fact is you the citizen sign a document to pay back $100,000 then pay it back. Be it for the worlds largest birthday cake or college or a vacation around the world, agreeing to pay back what you borrowed is the correct thing to do. It's real simple. Technicalities are just excuses to not honor a commitment and those who shirk that cannot be trusted at work, in relationships, in life. Period.

So, if you had to take a loved one to the hospital and it turns out that the bill is say 30 years of whatever your salary is. And since you signed the paperwork with the hospital and/or your insurance company promising to pay whatever they deemed was going to be the cost. You'd happily pay it, even if it meant that you'd have nothing left over for housing, transportation, groceries? You'd not seek to, at the very least, have the amount reduced? Because that is what the plan would have done, reduced the loans for most people. A mere $10,000 for most, up to $20,000 for others. Look at higher education costs over the past 30 years. I apologize for the hypothetical, but I just wanted to put what you said in other terms.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

Ahem, ah, yeah, there are "other avenues". Teachers, civil service workers and I think a few other categories have legal provisions in the law to have certain amounts forgiven for working in some occupations and/or in certain geographic locations.

It could be that this sense of entitlement to having the loans forgiven may come from seeing the politicians and bureaucrats **** away billions to trillions of dollars of tax money for things that don't benefit US citizens. How much money in armaments did Biden abandon in Afghanistan? How much money in aid have we provided Ukraine? Do you have any idea how much money our state department gives away to other nations? Do you have any idea how much federal tax money is being spent to support the illegal invaders being escorted into our nation by the Biden administration?

I'm not saying their entitlement attitude is right, but I can kind of understand how they feel that federal money is infinite, and might as well be spent to benefit some US citizens instead of gifting it out to the rest of the world.

Then there is the fact that Biden promised it to them to get them to vote for him. They voted him into office, now they feel like he needs to fulfill his promise to them, that was the deal. They got taken for fools, and they don't want to admit it to themselves and others.

More like everyone, and I do mean everyone, has been taken by the stolen Supreme Court.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

These aren't points to tick people off or start a flame war. I just want to point out some things that my conservative friends here seem to have forgotten. Don't fall for the rhetoric that doesn't stand up to the weakest of tests. Honestly, if higher education were truly free, there would be a lot fewer people for that sort of false narrative to take root.

There is no free lunch, as the old economic adage reminds us.

Indeed, as you suggest, if everybody were "forced" to cover such project costs, there'd be fewer people to complain of such non-paying customers (as there wouldn't be any). Of course, that skirts.

One might argue, falsely, that K-12 education in the U.S. is "free." Yet, of course it's not. Yes, society in general does reap some benefits from an overall raising of the academic and intellectual capabilities of the populace. But K-12 is one thing. Post-12, something else. As an adult, there are "adult" ways of going about things like product consumption, and then there are other ways.

I've yet to see something being cost-less to produce in which a thing needs to be produced prior to consumption. In the end, such a concept would systematize the spreading of that cost across larger populations. Socialism has its problems, and those cannot be easily surmounted.

A financially-smarter way to go about things, for people without an assured means of paying for something, is to "apprentice" at a shop (ie, in HVAC) that educates people via OJT or offers to significantly defray (or cost match) one's educational expenses.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

There is no free lunch, as the old economic adage reminds us.

Indeed, as you suggest, if everybody were "forced" to cover such project costs, there'd be fewer people to complain of such non-paying customers (as there wouldn't be any). Of course, that skirts.

One might argue, falsely, that K-12 education in the U.S. is "free." Yet, of course it's not. Yes, society in general does reap some benefits from an overall raising of the academic and intellectual capabilities of the populace. But K-12 is one thing. Post-12, something else. As an adult, there are "adult" ways of going about things like product consumption, and then there are other ways.

I've yet to see something being cost-less to produce in which a thing needs to be produced prior to consumption. In the end, such a concept would systematize the spreading of that cost across larger populations. Socialism has its problems, and those cannot be easily surmounted.

A financially-smarter way to go about things, for people without an assured means of paying for something, is to "apprentice" at a shop (ie, in HVAC) that educates people via OJT or offers to significantly defray (or cost match) one's educational expenses.

K-12 is a very good example of how "spreading the cost" as you put it works for the entire society. And yes, as you dropped the word, that is socialism. Your fire department, your police force, your heavily subsidized roads, that's all socialism. The benefits of a highly educated population far outweigh the costs, that was one of my points. There are plenty of occupation schools, technical schools. The German system has a system like that. There are some in the US. Nothing wrong with them. But if you have students with a mind, and with a desire to be physicists, would you want them being relegated to working at your HVAC shop? (Not that there's anything wrong with HVAC, I know, my dad did HVAC). Today's Republican party and conservatives in general like to tout their business bona fides. Well, it doesn't take a Wall Street tycoon to understand that you have to spend money to make money. It's an investment in the future. This is a lesson that we as a species got when we shifted from hunting and gathering to agriculture. So, it's not a new concept.

The system we have now is in a death spiral. It is unique to this country among all the developed nations. Because in all the other developed nations, they have recognized the value of higher education and eliminated or dramatically reduced all hindrances. But here in the USA, all we saw was an opportunity to turn a tidy profit.

 

[ArchaeoCat]

Can somebody tell my why these people who took loans think they shouldn't have to pay them back?! I'm totally baffled by this mentality. Did they really think that a LOAN was just free money? They seem to think it should be anyway.

Just read an article where they interviewed some people with loan debt. Only ONE out of the six interviewees actually mentioned working to pay off the loan, the others just had some strange sense of entitlement that the loan debt they signed up for should just disappear.

Like THIS person:



"...other avenues to cancel student debt..."

Like maybe, I dunno, PAY IT OFF???

Oh, no; instead they want to put people in office who will pay their debt for them. Where do they think THAT money will come from?

Good lord. And these are people who went to college. We are in deep doo-doo if this is representative of the rest.

Since you started this, perhaps you can explain to the rest of us the thought process behind your stance? I sincerely do not understand. I, and others that aren't staunch conservatives might benefit from elucidation. Because, as it stands, I have only what I can ascertain from the stingy, mean-spirited, simplistic comments that have been left here (and elsewhere). I truly do not get this way of thinking. To me it seems, "if I don't benefit, then you shouldn't either", which is rather juvenile and short-sighted.

 

[orbital]

+

Eight posts on a single page is, at minimum, desperate.

Shows the age group

 

[ArchaeoCat]

+

Eight posts on a single page is, at minimum, desperate.

Shows the age group

Lots of B.S. to address. ;-)

 

[turbodog]

... just look at the VA if you want a peek into what healthcare would look like under their control! ...

Don't confuse single-payer with a sole source providing end-to-end solution.

With the highest spending per capita in the developed world and sub-par outcomes, perhaps it's time to reevaluate?

If you want a real shock... don't compare US states to other US states, compare them to the rest of the world. Oftentimes, we score below what a typical US citizen would consider a 'third world country'.

 

[turbodog]

...Or we'll bail out GM and Chrysler (who should have been allowed to fail if we actually had a free market system). ...

A little OT, but I'd vigorously encourage a reading of this book:

An actual failure of any of the big 3 would have brought down 1) the other two and 2) the world. I would have bailed them out 100% as there was no other real choice.

And you may find yourself a Ford fan afterwards.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

But if you have students with a mind, and with a desire to be physicists, would you want them being relegated to working at your HVAC shop? (Not that there's anything wrong with HVAC, I know, my dad did HVAC).

Students with "a mind" have opportunities most others won't. Scholarships come to many of those who show bright and capable scholarship.
Isn't much wrong with HVAC, other than it's one of "those" manual-labor type roles. But it can make bank, which, all things considered, ain't a bad thing. Six-figures is possible in my area, for capable and hard-working individuals, and not only after thirty years.

The economic principle of "price floors" (or "caps") has similar problematic aspects, which wishing won't get around. The feel-good for providing some benefits is all well and good, and those benefits aid many. Whether it comes from a systemic sea-change of a price floor, or whether it comes to the meritorious via scholarships and other opportunities.

Be careful what you wish for. Others might well be forced to pay for your getting it.

 

[turbodog]

Any discussion about student loan relief/restructuring, college costs, etc needs to include the topic of discharging student loans in bankruptcy (which _is_ possible BTW).

I've got a family member, an attorney, which deals in this exact specialty. It's very difficult, but possible.

Once the law was changed to make it so hard to do, prices go up. Money floods into a system where the borrower "can't" get out it. Extra money makes prices go up. Lather, rinse, repeat.

FWIW, my younger relatives tell me, the state universities in MS are about 20k/year between tuition, books, housing, food, utilities. Subtract the ~7k/year a student can make working the breaks flipping burgers, and you've got 13k * 4 = 52k debt @ graduation. And this is assuming no scholarships/etc.

Everyone's focused on the outlier data points for loan debt. Average is about 35k. Back calculating for inflation, that's 13k when I got my degree... so it tracks well.

Average Student Loan Debt [2023]: by Year, Age & More

Find out how the national average of $37,693 in student loan debt breaks down by age, degree and more, as well as how it's changed over time.

educationdata.org

 

[ArchaeoCat]

Students with "a mind" have opportunities most others won't. Scholarships come to many of those who show bright and capable scholarship.
Isn't much wrong with HVAC, other than it's one of "those" manual-labor type roles. But it can make bank, which, all things considered, ain't a bad thing. Six-figures is possible in my area, for capable and hard-working individuals, and not only after thirty years.

The economic principle of "price floors" (or "caps") has similar problematic aspects, which wishing won't get around. The feel-good for providing some benefits is all well and good, and those benefits aid many. Whether it comes from a systemic sea-change of a price floor, or whether it comes to the meritorious via scholarships and other opportunities.

Be careful what you wish for. Others might well be forced to pay for your getting it.

You are proving that no matter how carefully one states one's point, it's bound to be misunderstood by others.

So, you would have the entire education system propped up by charity of scholarships and grants? Not tenable.

And since you keep harping on blue-collar jobs (let me be clear that I am NOT speaking against them) and how much money they can make, it shows me that you are of the mindset that the sole purpose for going to college is to make a lot of money. Capitalist to the core. If making money were your sole goal, then fine, choose a field that makes a lot of money.
Academia yields benefits beyond the immediately tangible. Some times, we don't see "pay offs" for generations to come. A seemingly uninteresting field may (and the past has shown this) be crucial to entire future industries.

You keep repeating this "Be careful what you wish for. Others might well be forced to pay for your getting it" sentiment. What are you saying? That I should fear that student loan relief be instituted in some way? And in some way I will regret this because of some imagined economic calamity it might cause? I wouldn't, and it won't.

We spend $900 billion a year on defence, more than the next ten countries (that includes China and Russia) combined. Yet we can't forgive student loan debt?! Let me tell you something, that $900 billion will have to be spent on weapons technology developed abroad because this country is too short-sighted to invest in its domestic brain power.

The plan put forth by Mr. Biden was never going to crush the economy or anything of the sort. It was going to help those that needed it the most. Any "news" to the contrary was misinformation.