The battery of the future will be ???

[fireguy]

I've been reading through a lot of the posts here and wonder what are the 'best' batteries? I thought NiMH was superior to NiCd, but it appears in high discharge applications such as a cordless drill, NiCd are superior? But NiMh are superior in high discharge applications when compared to Alkaline. It seems that the one big advantage of alkalines is that they have a tremendous shelf life, whereas NiCd had self discharge and NiMh had an even higher self discharge. Of course, with LSD, then LSD NiMH are very good, but not as good as alkaline for storage of several years.

Now I'm reading about lithium batteries. I did use a set of Energizer Lithium primary cells in my camera once and was amazed at how much longer they lasted than alkalines. I have yet to try any lithium rechargeables. Will they replace NiMh batteries? There are so many sizes and numbers of lithium cells it's initially pretty confusing. Can I get an "AA" sized rechargeable lithium cell that has the same voltage as an NiMH or alkaline (1.2 - 1.5 Vdc)?

What's going to happen in the future? Will lithium take over for NiMH as NiCd becomes a distant memory? Of course we may be using an even different technology.

Is it a wise investment to be purchasing NiMH for flashlights, remote controls, digital cameras, etc. or would it be worth my while to start stuffing my brain with everything lithium? He he - no, I don't mean taking lithium pills, either. :laughing:

Don't you love that little popcorn guy?

 

[Marduke]

There is no current tech to make rechargable lithium based replacements for regular AAA, AA, C, D cells with a typical 1.5v, so LSD NiMH cells are here to stay for a long while.

With a lithium metal shortage being not too far down the road (sooner than oil most likely), battery tech will have to move beyond that into another technology. There are hundreds of organizations researching what that tech is, and there is a lot of promising technologies out there. They just need to be made more reliable, higher energy density, and cheaper.

 

[Fallingwater]

I wondered some time ago if it wasn't time for a global shift from alkalines to lithium primaries, and one of the most informative replies enlightened me to the worrying fact that we don't have enough lithium for that. Right now lithium-ion cells are all the rage, but since the material in question will become increasingly hard to find, it's most likely a transitional phase. We'll need something different soon.

As far as I'm concerned I'd love to see things such as miniaturized sealed RTGs powering laptops, flashlights and so on, but for obvious reasons I don't think that's too likely.

 

[balou]

Zinc air will be an interesting solution. Not the tiny hearing aid cells, much larger. If you do it right, you could just swap out the zinc of a used cell. That'll be more of a zinc fuel cell then. Google for 'zinc economy'

Another option are hydrogen fuel cells, or methanol fuel cell, as it's easier to store. For small devices supercaps could be an option. Charged in 30 seconds, and can be made small. Maybe charged by your EDC fuel cell . Having separate batteries for you laptop, pda, cellphone, flashlight etc is quite a waste. And of course the battery always dies on the device you need most.

So in conclusion: my wild guess would be zinc/hydrogen/methanol fuel cells for larger devices and as a portable recharger, and supercaps for small devices. But please, don't quote me on that in 50 years, I'll be most likely embarassed to death by my inaccurate guesses

 

[fireguy]

Zinc air will be an interesting solution. Not the tiny hearing aid cells, much larger. If you do it right, you could just swap out the zinc of a used cell. That'll be more of a zinc fuel cell then. Google for 'zinc economy' Another option are hydrogen fuel cells, or methanol fuel cell, as it's easier to store. For small devices supercaps could be an option. Charged in 30 seconds, and can be made small. Maybe charged by your EDC fuel cell . Having separate batteries for you laptop, pda, cellphone, flashlight etc is quite a waste. And of course the battery always dies on the device you need most. So in conclusion: my wild guess would be zinc/hydrogen/methanol fuel cells for larger devices and as a portable recharger, and supercaps for small devices. But please, don't quote me on that in 50 years, I'll be most likely embarassed to death by my inaccurate guesses

Just like Bill Gates said that nobody will need more than 640K of memory? (Actually, I think this was misheard. He said that nobody would need more than $640 Billion.)

I find it somewhat annoying when devices use a proprietary battery. I had a Fuji digital camera and when the battery finally died, I was faced with purchasing a new camera or an overpriced battery. I bought a camera that takes AA batteries and the problem was solved. :laughing:

BTW, what does "EDC" stand for?

 

[Marduke]

BTW, what does "EDC" stand for?

Every Day Carry

 

[Kiessling]

Now you've done it. I'll have nightmares about CR123 cells disappearing. :candle:
bernie


P.S: EDC = Every Day Carry

 

[jtr1962]

I'd say ultracapacitors are likely to be the battery of the future. No worries about a lithium metal shortage, they should eventually exceed energy density of chemical batteries, they can be designed for any voltage, they can be recharged in seconds if necessary, and they are rechargeable hundreds of thousands of times. Not sure about the self-discharge or operation at temperature extremes, but if those are problems now, I'm sure they'll be solved by the time ultracaps come into common use. None of the other potential battery solutions seem viable long term. The shortage of lithium effectively rules out lithium-ion and especially primary lithium. No idea what other chemistry could effectively replace it. Fuel cells are impractical. They use expensive metals like platinum, don't do well at cold tempertures, require highly toxic liquids like methanol, and can't handle high currents. Not sure how many cycles they can go, but from what I've heard that's another problem which hasn't been solved. Bottom line, after 40+ years of development we're not much closer to commercializing fuel cells than we were then.

Other possibilities might be RTGs but that depends upon development of better thermoelectric convertors and also upon the NRC allowing them. They may well be allowed in large items where they can be adequately protected such as vehicles or perhaps home electrical generators. I really can't see them in consumer items like laptops. They're just too expensive. But in a car, they make perfect sense (i.e. great selling point-the car you never have to refuel). One thing is almost certain-with better and better rechargeables there are fewer, if any, advantages to primary cells. Thanks to LSD cells, alkalines should pass into the dust bin of history in the next few years. In ten years I won't expect to see any primary cells. For environmental reasons I'm sure they just won't be sold. But then again, they won't have to be as they'll offer no practical advantage over the rechargeables of the day.

 

[Fallingwater]

I'd say ultracapacitors are likely to be the battery of the future. No worries about a lithium metal shortage, they should eventually exceed energy density of chemical batteries

At the rate the technology is improving, "eventually" could mean "several decades". Supercaps can be useful in certain conditions to power lights, but for a long-term solution you still want batteries, and this is unlikely to change anytime soon. Hell, by the time supercaps get to the current energy density of batteries (if they ever do) we'll probably have nanotech cells (or something) the size of a thumb that can power electric cars.

 

[balou]

Just like Bill Gates said that nobody will need more than 640K of memory? (Actually, I think this was misheard. He said that nobody would need more than $640 Billion.)

I find it somewhat annoying when devices use a proprietary battery. I had a Fuji digital camera and when the battery finally died, I was faced with purchasing a new camera or an overpriced battery. I bought a camera that takes AA batteries and the problem was solved. :laughing:

Yes, it's just impossible to predict the future. IBM once said that there's a global market for about 5 computers.

Or take for example the videophone. On Wikipedia there's a drawing from 1910 depicting a videophone, there are videophones in Fritz Lang's film Metropolis from 1927. In 1938 (!) the german post started what was probably the first commercial videophone service. Today, every new cellphone sold has videophone capability.
And nobody gives a damn.


About battery standardization: the problem is, lithium cells are pretty "new", and inherently incompatible with the old system. Li-ion only exist since 1991, Li-Poly since 1996, and they're not a dropin replacement because of their voltage. Alkalines, NiCd, NiMH and Lithium Iron disulfide can all be used in place of the original Carbon Zinc batteries.
So, maybe we'll see some standardization sometime in the future.

On the other hand, design of electronics has changed radically - in the past, you looked how much voltage you'd need, and what an acceptable runtime would be, and then you pretty much had your battery requirements, like 4xAA (remember the Gameboy?). Then you designed your device around those requirements.
Now, you design your device, and then you look were you could squeeze in a LiPolymer battery. Look at cellphones, their battery is exactly as wide as the cellphone itself, about 4mm thick, and nearly as long as the whole cellphone, minus some space for antenna/camera/loudspeaker. MacBook Air - battery takes 2/3 of the internal space! Swapable batteries would add significant volume...
And it's a fact that with in-device recharging there isn't much need anymore for having two batteries or even a user-replacable battery. So there may be never a standard for those reasons. But a good reason for a personal fuel cell to recharge all your gadgets on the go

By the way, I hope you use NiMH cells in your camera. Abysmal performance on Alkalines in general..

Edit: Fallingwater: that's were the fuel cell comes into play, to recharge your various supercap gadgets

 

[divine]

AW's batteries will be the batteries of the future.

 

[2xTrinity]

I'd say ultracapacitors are likely to be the battery of the future. No worries about a lithium metal shortage, they should eventually exceed energy density of chemical batteries, they can be designed for any voltage, they can be recharged in seconds if necessary, and they are rechargeable hundreds of thousands of times. Not sure about the self-discharge or operation at temperature extremes, but if those are problems now, I'm sure they'll be solved by the time ultracaps come into common use.

Ultracapacitors will probably never come into common use for low-voltage applications.

Energy stored in a capacitor is directly proportional to the capacitance, and proportional to the square of the voltage. That menas high voltage is requred for ultracaps to have very high energy density. In general the way to physically increase capacitance is to pack the electrodes closer together. This causes the capacitance to go up (inversely proportional to distance), and the voltage to go down (proportional to distance). However, since energy storage capability is proportional to voltage squared, a higher-Capacitance, lower-voltage tradeoff means a large loss of possible energy density.

The only ultracaps that have comparable energy density (by either weight or volume) as batteries operate at thousands of volts. Another problem with packing this much energy in small space is that failure due to dielectric breakdown, coupled with almost zero impedance in a capacitor, means all that energy may be dissipated at once in a catastrophic failure event. In other words, a detonation, which is far worse than mere "venting with flame".

Ultracaps that are similar voltage to current LiIon batteries (read: not a severe electrocution hazard), are an order of magnitude lower in energy desnity than current LiIon cells. They also have no better power-density (eg ability to be charged/discharged rapidly) than comparably-sized LiFePO4 cells. Ultracaps may eventually catch up in terms of energy/dollar, but that would make them suitable for replacing Lead-acid as an energy storage medium inside buildings or vehicles etc. NOT for replacing LiIon cells in portable devices.

 

[Hoggy]

How about NoPoPo(No Polution Power) batteries from Japan.. They charge by using a liquid. However, they can only be recharged about 2-5 times according to: http://www.himeyashop.com/product_info.php?products_id=4646 .

On a serious note though, I would have thought Lithium would be the one to replace NiMH until I just heard about the lithium metal shortage in this thread (and now elsewhere to boot).. I was getting an itch to try rechargeable lithiums until I heard about the lithium-metal shortage thing. I think I'll stick to my LSD NiMHs for now.

On that note, I thought I read about an emerging technology on fatwallet.com(or some other 'deals' type site) that is supposed to be better the the current LSD's - but is only available in Japan right now.
I tried to refind that thread, but was unable to. I remember reading that it was still NiMH tech, but with improved characteristics. sooo - I dunno.. :shrug:

Did anyone else read the same thing??

 

[drmaxx]

With a lithium metal shortage being not too far down the road (sooner than oil most likely), battery tech will have to move beyond that into another technology. There are hundreds of organizations researching what that tech is, and there is a lot of promising technologies out there. They just need to be made more reliable, higher energy density, and cheaper.

Where's that shortage talk comming from? I realise that the current lithium production capacity is limited, but this does not mean that with more demand there won't be more capacity built up? Or am I missing something?

The world production in 2007 was 25,000 t of Lithium, with estimated Reserves 4,100,000 and a Reserve base of 11,000,000. Sounds like there is quite some room to produce a few more batteries - especially considering that the Li from batteries can be recycled. Source:
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mcs/2008/mcs2008.pdf

 

[Fallingwater]

On a serious note though, I would have thought Lithium would be the one to replace NiMH until I just heard about the lithium metal shortage in this thread (and now elsewhere to boot).. I was getting an itch to try rechargeable lithiums until I heard about the lithium-metal shortage thing. I think I'll stick to my LSD NiMHs for now.

Whether the danger of a lithium shortage is real or just a rumor, I don't see why you wouldn't use lithium cells just because of that. The metal is still available...

 

[MorePower]

Where's that shortage talk comming from? I realise that the current lithium production capacity is limited, but this does not mean that with more demand there won't be more capacity built up? Or am I missing something?

The world production in 2007 was 25,000 t of Lithium, with estimated Reserves 4,100,000 and a Reserve base of 11,000,000. Sounds like there is quite some room to produce a few more batteries - especially considering that the Li from batteries can be recycled. Source:
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pu...08/mcs2008.pdf

You are correct. If demand increases, there may be a bit of lag before production can step up, but there's likely no shortage of lithium available to be extracted. The same thing happened for indium several years ago, as it was starting to be used heavily in LCD displays and demand outstripped supply briefly.

Here is an informative link. "The metal lithium itself is not expected to experience supply shortages. As the 35th most abundant element on the planet, lithium metal is more common than lead. Lithium carbonate, the primary traded form, is used in a myriad of products including greases, polymers, air conditioning, lithium-aluminum, glasses, and others. Over 80 percent of the global consumption of lithium is made up of uses other than Li-ion batteries. Additionally, there has been a recent increase in lithium reserves expansions by key suppliers."

Here is another one. "If there is a future shortage of lithium in the near term it will be because the end-users didn't take even the most basic steps to insure against the risk of supply interruption."

 

[PhotonBoy]

Virtually limitless supplies of minerals and metals are dissolved in Earth's oceans. In the future, I'm sure that people will turn to the oceans after all the 'easy' supplies of earth's metals are completely mined. As an example, see this page:

Development of a Floating System to Extract Lithium Dissolved in Seawater Using Ocean Energy. (1st Report)

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200308/000020030803A0188606.php

 

[drmaxx]

Virtually limitless supplies of minerals and metals are dissolved in Earth's oceans. In the future, I'm sure that people will turn to the oceans after all the 'easy' supplies of earth's metals are completely mined.

With enough energy you beat entropy and get metals out of the ocean water - no surprise there. However, in the case of lithium it seems to be more efficient to invest the enegery in not pissing off your supliers. :laughing:

You are correct. If demand increases, there may be a bit of lag before production can step up, but there's likely no shortage of lithium available to be extracted. The same thing happened for indium several years ago, as it was starting to be used heavily in LCD displays and demand outstripped supply briefly.

Thanks MorePower for the interesting read.

 

[Lightcrazycanuck]

 

[IMSabbel]

Also, you need to consider that 80% of this 25k tons a year is for batteries now. Yeah, the reserves mean 200 year at the current consumption.

But think about what would happen if even every 10th car build had just 10kg lithium inside (a VERY low guess, thats just enough for a hybrid, not enough really for plug-in):

There are >70 million cars sold a year in the world, -> 7*10^6 *10kg->70k tons of lithium.
This alone would require a quadrupling of the yearly production.