The Perfect LEO Duty flashlight: 4sevens and Eagletac Please Read

TwitchALot

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... doesn't really have anything to do with this thread

[remainder of long, argumentative and off-topic post deleted. - DM51]
 
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TwitchALot

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... doesn't really have anything to do with this thread

[remainder of long, argumentative and off-topic post deleted. - DM51]

DM51, since that was a direct response to a question, next time, if I make the mistake off making an OTF post directed at someone, would you please let me know and give me a chance to send it via PM instead of deleting it outright immediately (or PMing me a copy and then deleting it)? Thanks.

For the record, it was not meant nor intended to be argumentative as it was thorough and educational, albeit OTF nonetheless. SureAddicted I attempted to address your concerns, but it was OTF.
 

Search

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For the record, it was not meant nor intended to be argumentative as it was thorough and educational, albeit OTF nonetheless. SureAddicted I attempted to address your concerns, but it was OTF.

Your arguing an "education" point about a field of work you are not trained in, nor a part of.

You're not that smart. You're not that wise. And you're certainly not all that powerful. If you think you're the best, or that you know the best or the most, or that there's nothing for you to gain, you are wrong. Take my word for it, and you'll be much better off. I know I am.

:ohgeez:
 
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ToNIX

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A simple Malkoff MD2 is perfect! The only thing I could see lacking is some kind of grip ring.

It's my duty light and I trust it, my life depends on it.
 

Roger999

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Anyone consider an A2Z? http://www.surefire.com/AZ2
It has the combat ring, press lightly for low 35 lumens, press harder for 150 lumens, turn a bit for 35 lumens constant on, turn a bit more for 150 lumens constant on.
 

Bullman

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I think I will take my thoughts from a few posts ago and go a bit further to say that I don't think that there is one "perfect" Law enforcement flashlight because I think it is foolish to do the job with just one flashlight. Like I said before, I carry at least 4 at work between what is in the car and on my person. I have a main rechargable ultra Stinger on the charger in the car, I have a 3D maglite with a Malkoff dropin that is my backup that runs on primaries, my two big lights. Then I have a Strion incan on my belt, and a Scorpion in my bail out bag. I would like to upgrade the belt light to an LED Stinger, or maybe a Malkoff MD2, something along those lines.

You just need (really need) more than one light.
 

DM51

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DM51, next time, if I make an OT post directed at someone, would you please let me know and give me a chance to send it via PM instead of deleting it outright immediately (or PMing me a copy and then deleting it)?
NO. I'm not going to waste my time running around after you, clearing up your boring, long-winded, off-topic harangues.

I'm already fed up with having to deal with your argumentative nonsense, where you butt in and have the gall to start lecturing people on subjects about which you are entirely inexperienced.

It's up to you to realise when you are off topic, or out of order, or being a disruptive nuisance, or whatever. If you are worried any more of your posts might be deleted, save them yourself and PM them to those who want to read them, if there's anyone who actually does want to, which I rather doubt.

If I find myself having to deal with too much more of your trollish and argumentative behavior, you'll find yourself suspended.
 

TMedina

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Anyone consider an A2Z? http://www.surefire.com/AZ2
It has the combat ring, press lightly for low 35 lumens, press harder for 150 lumens, turn a bit for 35 lumens constant on, turn a bit more for 150 lumens constant on.

There was some concern, as I recall, about maintaining constant thumb pressure - either fatigue of the thumb or accidental high power activation due to twitch, spasm or excitement.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has actually used one in the field yet.

-Trevor
 

TwitchALot

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Your arguing an "education" point about a field of work you are not trained in, nor a part of.

:ohgeez:

Interesting point. What I also found interesting was that there are several threads about strobes in LEO situations where "experts" have already chimed in. Maybe you'll take them more seriously since they apparently have far more experience in the field than you and I?

Justin_Case said:
With all due respect, your CPF profile says you are 20 yo, and thus aren't even old enough to legally buy a handgun in the US yet. So, just what is your world experience to be able to say with authority that the cigar flashlight method is "dominant" from what you've seen? You've seen it all?

...

I have over 1000 hours of weapons, combatives, and tactics training. So what. We all speak of what we've seen and have been taught. I also have 20 years advising various Fed gov't agencies as a professional analyst.

IMO, there is no rigorous, empirical evidence to support the vast majority of firearms tactics and doctrine. Heck, folks still can't agree on whether Weaver or Isosceles is better. We have trainers teaching to put fresh magazines into mag pouches with the bullet tips facing backward. The point shooting vs sighted fire debate rages on. Tastes great, less filling. Is there any surprise that folks can't agree on the utility or lack of utility for strobe, much less for what application(s)?

What we try to do is articulate a logical and detailed analysis of why we do what we do. This includes an analysis of the competing techniques. We then choose the techniques which we believe offers the greatest performance for our mission statement. The definition of greatest performance doesn't always mean fastest. It can be a balance between speed and reliability. It might involve motor movement consistency with other skills such as unarmed combatives, thus forming a coherent, integrated fighting system. It might favor gross motor movement and minimum decision branches.

Ken Good said:
I need to lay down the backdrop to put this into context. Almost 20 years ago, I had the unique opportunity to direct a force-on-force training program for the United States Navy. I maintained this position for almost a decade. In that position I was directly involved in literally tens of thousands of simulations involving projectiles flying back and forth between organized forces.

...

Put this together about a year ago, it's dated and incomplete, but it will suffice.

http://polarion-usa.com/pdfs/Strobing-Light-KenGood.pdf

Really haven't been playing with small lights or strobing small lights for quite some time.

Bottom line for me: I have had many, many police officers, military folks and "civilians" personally email me with their stories and their thanks for the tool.

User Know-how, user-interface, strobe rate, intensity and the situation at hand all play a factor in the outcome of any encounter.

There is is no one "right answer" or do all tool.

As an FYI: The last training session I did (about 60 days ago - First one in about 2 years) for a fugitive recovery task force (CA DOJ) was conducted in low-light. Without "selling" anything, I simply went into the darkened shoot-house using Simunitions FX and solved the same problems presented to the officers at hand.

To a person, they wanted to know where to get what I had in my hand (It happend to be a modded Gladius...go figure). Being the receiving end of proper movement and the correct application of lighting principles "sells" itself.

State your credentials, abilities and well-reasoned opinions all you want.
Nobody at this point has convinced me that I am better off without the strobe as an option in my arsenal of choices.

...

It's still a relatively new concept and should not be boxed in too tightly, too early.

Robocop is also an experienced officer and offers his take on the matter, and he's against strobe. Lot of good points in that thread if anyone's interested in learning something.
 
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TwitchALot

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NO. I'm not going to waste my time running around after you, clearing up your boring, long-winded, off-topic harangues.

I'm already fed up with having to deal with your argumentative nonsense, where you butt in and have the gall to start lecturing people on subjects about which you are entirely inexperienced.

It's up to you to realise when you are off topic, or out of order, or being a disruptive nuisance, or whatever. If you are worried any more of your posts might be deleted, save them yourself and PM them to those who want to read them, if there's anyone who actually does want to, which I rather doubt.

If I find myself having to deal with too much more of your trollish and argumentative behavior, you'll find yourself suspended.

Honestly, at the time, since I was answering someone's question/concern, I didn't think my entire post would be deleted, but I'll be more mindful to heed your warning and go with the flow in the future.
 

Search

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Interesting point. What I also found interesting was that there are several threads about strobes in LEO situations where "experts" have already chimed in. Maybe you'll take them more seriously since they apparently have far more experience in the field than you and I?

Robocop is also an experienced officer and offers his take on the matter, and he's against strobe. Lot of good points in that thread if anyone's interested in learning something.

Ignorance is bliss. Then again, I'm just 20 years old :rolleyes:
 

Markcid84

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During a festival in my town last year, I had the occasion to utillize the strobe mode on my M-30 Triton (Olight). We were trying to disperse a large crowd of mostly older juveniles who were swarming back and forth, running prople over and starting fights. One subject was sitting on a railing, and ignored me as I repeatedly directed him to move along. He would stare over my head, and would not move. I activated the strobe mode of my new M-30, and wiped the light across his eyes very quickly. He jumped down, brought his hands to his eyes, cursed, and most importantly moved along. I have used in only a few times, in similar circumstances, but it has been effective each time.

I generally keep my Triton on medium brightness mode, and rarely activate the strobe, but it has proven to work, and I like the option...

Just my 2 cents worth
 

SoCalDep

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Wow...I read the initial post and disagreed most fervently, but now after the development of the thread, I'm not sure what the heck is going on...

I'm not a Rogers fan. I have a Z2 with hte SF LED and I like it, but of all the techniques, it is the most likely to induce malfunctions. My only ever malfunction with my old USP 45 was using the Rogers technique (recoil caused my support hand to activate the slide lock). I've trained with the Rogers, Harries, FBI, cheek-weld (whatever they call it), Ayoob, and weaponlight techniques. The only consistent one is the weaponlight. All the others must be adapted to the circumstance.

Honestly, I don't think there is a perfect LEO light...That's like saying there's a perfect LEO gun. I'm not a Glock fan. I've owned two and just don't like them. I like Berettas and Sigs. Others will think I'm nuts, but that's the way it is. My Z2 stays in my active shooter vest. My Eagletac P20A2 MkII is in my sap pocket and my new Streamlight PT2AA is on my belt (I'm testing it right now). I have a Surefire X200 mounted to my P226R. I also have a Streamlight SL20X up front and often in a sap pocket...

The fact is nothing is perfect, and what works for one person doesn't work for another. Also, something to consider is whether we are talking about carrying only one light or are we using multiple lights?

If I could only carry one light I'd want the option of quick constant-on along with a momentary function. I'd want options but with the ability to choose what they were...

So here's my ideal (can only carry one) light...

Takes AA rechargeable so I can use my eneloops

Uses a rotating switch like the Fenix TA21 or TA30, BUT...

Each of the three light positions can be independently programmed similar to the Quark lights. (I'd go with moonlight, signal strobe and maximum)

A soft-press momentary to constant-on tailcap switch.

No sharp crenelations to tear up my uniform (TA30 @#*#Q@#!!!!!!!).

Ability to use AA lithium batteries, Alkaline, or rechargeable eneloops..possibly even li-ons,

Bezel down clip.

Oh yea...Neutral White...
 

adbowell

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I've gotta say that I agree that attempting to elect a "perfect" anything is going to be a great catalyst for conversation, particularly in a forum setting, but in reality is darn-near impossible, and honestly, why does everyone need to use the same thing? Variety is the spice of life!

That being said...my two cents for anyone who cares.

I've been using SureFire lights for about 6-7 years now. Before that I had a couple Streamlights (Stinger and Poly Stinger) which were fine, I just found to SF to be more to my liking. I am pretty much in agreement with the statement that the Z2 is best out there...though there are many configuration at this point (2011). I really liked the bezel on the SF 6P LED-Defender, and after convincing the department to purchase a 6P-Defender, I came across a Z2 on eBay for a good enough price that I snatched it up, and switched the bezel. Basically...my thinking is that if I can have a light that I can carry on my belt + potentially have it as a "last ditch" weapon option in a fight, that's what I want. Over the years, I ended up custom building a Nitrolon version, and then adding the SureFire Combat Rings (Graham Combat Rings - http://youtu.be/A48dEDkkI24 ). I HIGHLY recommend giving the rings a try (and check out the video for a demo).

I've been training with the Combat Rings for a while, and I am comfortable enough with them, that I ended up retiring the "Z2 LED-Defender" and the "G2Z LED-Defender" and am now using the very basic "G2X" with the Combat Rings, and I've been reasonably pleased with the result. The deployment is the same, and I have no problem activating the tailcap switch using the Harries/Rogers/FBI or Graham techniques (the Graham technique is what I find myself using the most and is demonstrated in the video I provided a link to, by its creator).

All this to say, that I have found the hand held SureFire lights to be the best (for me - I know there are differing opinions and preferences out there), with my particular bias being towards the Z2 style lights (I'd like to get my hands on one of the new Z2Xs). I can keep them on my belt, and they don't take up much room...I've never had one fail (though I did switch to LED very soon after "joining the club"), and they are both bright and tough. I also prefer the focus that SF ships their lights with. My one complaint with the G2X is lack of a "strike bezel", though, I am aware that it is meant to be the "budget" light. I'm pretty sure the GG&G TID-Gladius and "Cookie Cutter" after-market bezels will work on them, though.

I do also use a SF X400 with the DG-18A remote tailcap switch (was not a huge fan of the remote switch until I switched from the X300 to the X400 due to potential light discipline issues). I carry a 1911-style, with the weaponlight mounted all the time, and have a holster that accommodates this type of carry. Is my holster heavier/bulkier, yes, but I've not found it to be an issue, and I seem to be noticing more and more of them on street with the passage of time. I'm a big believer in the "2-is-1" rule...and in fact was even subscribing to the "Tactical Trinity" concept before it was announced by SF. I'm occasionally razzed about having all the gear that I have...but the same guys who razz me typically come up to me a few months later after evaluating my "style" for themselves, asking me about where to get this or that...or what I paid for a certain piece of gear.

Bottom line is, when I'm in uniform, I have a SureFire E1B "Backup" in my left pocket, a G2X Pro with Combat Rings on my belt (in a Blackhawk!, bezel down carry holster), a G3 and a "Saint" in my bag, and an X400 attached to my pistol. With this set-up, I've NEVER been without light/illumination when I needed it.
 
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ledilluminate

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3. 8. Optimize the electronics and flashlight to run off 18650 Li-Ion batteries. Most LEO's are broke, we can't afford to feed our flashlights Cr123's. Some are lucky and our department buys us batteries, but the fact of the matter is that 18650's are the best Li-Ions out right now in terms of capacity and size. The cr123s can be an option but optimize the flashlight around 18650s.

I don't think many LEOs used 18650 or are aware of the intricacies of using/storing/charging them. Thats why Surefire's still so hot eh?
Very little Li-ion support there and they command a huge portion of the market.

So, are you suggesting that LEOs go to 18650's? Is there a way to charge them while still in the light, i.e. plug and play in a patrol car?
 

Chrisdm

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The notion that a cigar ring serves no purpose is incorrect. For example the "cigar ring" on the excellent Eagletac T20C2Mk2 serves the purpose of providing a resistance point to activate the light with the palm of your hand when using the cigar grip simultaneously with a weapon.
 

Animalmother

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" I'm not an LEO (not that it matters)"
129141347318615103.jpg
 

Napalm

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Your arguing an "education" point about a field of work you are not trained in, nor a part of.

Duh. So if I didn't take training as a janitor, I can't have any word on whether my office was properly cleaned or not?

Nap.
 

OhioCop83

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I own a level 3 serpa/xiphos nt/glock 23 combo...AWESOME! For annual firearms qualifications we still have to use a handheld light and I use my Gladius Maximis. My gladius with wrist strap is my favorite light ever. It gets abused!
 

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