Thoughts about the Clicky Pak.

[fyrstormer]

I've been carrying my titanium lights completely bare for a few months now, and the surface has a few scuffs here and there that I can see if I tilt them towards the light at just the right angle. Any surface coating is completely optional.

Aesthetically, the clip functions a lot like a necktie, so if you want it flashy, polish it and put it on the black-plated battery tube. Maybe get the bolts anodized blue or something for some real zing.

Speaking of the necktie analogy, I think the clips would actually look really good with some light machining and polishing in a diagonal Oxford-stripe pattern, so there would be raised/polished stripes against inset/bead-blasted stripes. It would be, as Clarence Thomas once said, "mad tight, yo."

 

[McGizmo]

I received the McClicky pak yesterday. Lemme know when you've been paid Don. I love the finish on the clip. I'm having the pak coated with AlTiN. I was going to ti-nitride the clip also, but now I think not. What do you guys think though, should I do the screws or leave them as is?

Ryan,
I received payment yesterday and thank you. I can't offer any opinion on what you should do with the clip beyond using it when it suits your needs! :D

 

[RyanA]

Thanks Don

LOL, about the oxford stripe...:crackup:

 

[fyrstormer]

The silicone boot showed up today. It's about as easy to press with the retaining ring installed as the rubber ring is to press with the O-ring missing. Much improved -- now I just need a good 3-speed light engine, something with a 1A high mode, or thereabouts. I have a spare Luxeon K2 that needs a good home.

 

[RyanA]

Don, are the screws from Lunsord? I have to order a replacement set. The originals stripped out, so I took the pak to my brother's garage. Ez outs didn't work, so the next step involved a gringing wheel and an impact driver! :faint: Belive it or not the pak and clip are in perfect condition. I now have a pair of the rare and elusive slotted titanium screws though.

 

[McGizmo]

Don, are the screws from Lunsord? I have to order a replacement set. The originals stripped out, so I took the pak to my brother's garage. Ez outs didn't work, so the next step involved a gringing wheel and an impact driver! :faint: Belive it or not the pak and clip are in perfect condition. I now have a pair of the rare and elusive slotted titanium screws though.

YES.

 

[RyanA]

Thanks Don!

 

[nfetterly]

I bought an EN Mule about a year ago and sold it, I recently bought another mule (oil slick - same except different finish) - this time I had read this thread and emailed / asked Don for a new silicone boot (more than extremely reasonable).

I didn't even know there was an o-ring on top of the boot until I got it out, easy easy easy to swap out, easy to put the new one back in with original o-ring on top, bottom orange o-ring out. Absolutely night & day difference - Don commented that as the older original boots age they will probably get harder. Anyway - the new boot is almost like the Ti McClicky Paks, very nice, very easy. Huge difference - for me a very positive change.

If you were in a tactical situation (watched the new Pelham 123 last night - let's say if a rat crawled up your leg you would not light up the with the older boot) then the older boot is the way to go. For the average flasholic - the new boot is sweet.

 

[fyrstormer]

Not sure what the softness of the boot has to to with applicability in a tactical situation, but then again I've never had people trying to shoot me, so...:whistle:

Anyway. Now a question about the O-rings. Don, are the black O-rings used on the nickel-plated Clicky Paks made of something different than the orange O-rings used on the PD Paks? I ask because I'm using a petroleum-based lubricant on the threads, which I use on every single one of my lights (and have been since 2001), but the O-ring between the head and body of my new Mule is getting torn to pieces. I've already de-burred the threads, but the O-ring is still getting damaged. (I might be able to use an orange O-ring from my Arc6, I dunno.) This must be what people are talking about when they say petro-based lubes will destroy the O-rings, but in all honesty this is the first time I've ever actually seen it happen.

Since I have a Haiku on-order, it would also be good to know if the O-rings on the new Ti Clicky Paks are similarly vulnerable, or whether they are made of a different material that doesn't soak up oil like a sponge.

 

[nfetterly]

Not sure what the softness of the boot has to to with applicability in a tactical situation,

It's Don's comment that the tougher to push boot is more applicable for tactical situation - less chance of accidentally turning on light.

For me - working in industry & walking dogs it's not important. Although there was that night at the Hilton Garden Inn (Halifax Airport) when I checked in last November during a snowstorm... my nickel plated mule spent the night upside down on top of the beer tap :candle: - it was the hit of the night - some aircraft maintenance guys were VERY impressed. I went through 4 batteries (& $75 for beer tab :party: for myself :drunk: and a co-worker) that night.

 

[McGizmo]

......
Anyway. Now a question about the O-rings. Don, are the black O-rings used on the nickel-plated Clicky Paks made of something different than the orange O-rings used on the PD Paks? ....

The black O-rings I am using on the McClickie pak to head seals (titanium and aluminum) are EPDM. The Orange O-rings are silicone. These are dash size #017. If you are going to use petroleum based lubes then you might need to switch to the silicone or the most common O-ring material, buna (nitrile).

 

[fyrstormer]

The black O-rings I am using on the McClickie pak to head seals (titanium and aluminum) are EPDM. The Orange O-rings are silicone. These are dash size #017. If you are going to use petroleum based lubes then you might need to switch to the silicone or the most common O-ring material, buna (nitrile).

Ah, okay. I knew something was different about it. Why EPDM anyway? The silicone ones work great -- sticky as all hell when they're not lubricated, but they have to be lubricated anyway, so that doesn't matter much.

Would you happen to know where I can get a set of either silicone or nitrile O-rings that will fit the Clicky Paks? They're 22mm OD and 18mm ID, right? That's what I remember measuring. I see O-rings at the Sandwich Shoppe that are labeled EP, and other O-rings that aren't, but the unlabeled ones don't specify what they're made of.

 

[McGizmo]

Ah, okay. I knew something was different about it. Why EPDM anyway? The silicone ones work great -- sticky as all hell when they're not lubricated, but they have to be lubricated anyway, so that doesn't matter much.

Would you happen to know where I can get a set of either silicone or nitrile O-rings that will fit the Clicky Paks? They're 22mm OD and 18mm ID, right? That's what I remember measuring. I see O-rings at the Sandwich Shoppe that are labeled EP, and other O-rings that aren't, but the unlabeled ones don't specify what they're made of.

EPDM is a great material to use for most environments with the exception of petroleum products. I use these dry for window seals, window retainers, boot retainers and other applications. With the proper lube, they also serve well in dynamic seal applications.

Why do you use petroleum based lube? (no need to answer)

As I stated above, the size of these O-rings is #017. You can get them from anywhere that sells seals and O-rings. I get them from AOP Technologies.

 

[fyrstormer]

EPDM is a great material to use for most environments with the exception of petroleum products. I use these dry for window seals, window retainers, boot retainers and other applications. With the proper lube, they also serve well in dynamic seal applications.

Why do you use petroleum based lube? (no need to answer)

As I stated above, the size of these O-rings is #017. You can get them from anywhere that sells seals and O-rings. I get them from AOP Technologies.

Thanks for the link. I didn't know they were all standard sizes, but that's good to know. I might just swing past the Home Depot and see if they have any.

I use petroleum-based lube because I've never seen anything adhere as well to metals as petroleum does, and I've actually found something that appears to work well even on titanium, which as you know usually likes to shred any lube you put on it. The only other alternative that I know of is silicone, which just damn well doesn't work in metal-on-metal applications. That Krytox stuff seems to do alright as long as the silicone can adhere to the Teflon bits and the Teflon bits can roll between the metal surfaces, though, but I've already gone and mixed up a couple of film canisters of my own stuff, and from the look of it, it will last me the next 50 years at the rate I'm using it.

 

[fyrstormer]

Well, Home Depot's selection of O-rings didn't follow the same numbering system, but I did manage to find some that fit properly. They are Danco #30 O-rings, and of course they don't say what they are made of, but my guess is they're made of nitrile. They are not soaking up the oil in the lube I'm using, so it looks like I've found a solution.

Cost me almost two whole bucks for a dozen of 'em. Friggin' ripoff artists. :D

 

[McGizmo]

The AOP site is very helpful with added O-ring information such as their sizing chart as well as their fluid compatibility table. I have found that the most common material used for O-rings and likely the default when no material is mentioned is nitrile. Provided one can avoid petroleum products, I think there are better material choices available.

 

[maxspeeds]

I hope Orlando (RocketTomato), a great CPF contributer, doesn't mind a referral here. He put on a great groupbuy (and service) to all of us CPF'ers for o-rings. Unfortunately the Silicone is sold out, but he still has EPDM sets available. Each set includes a range of 14 sizes (from 013 to 119) and includes 5 of each. See here:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=191738

 

[fyrstormer]

The AOP site is very helpful with added O-ring information such as their sizing chart as well as their fluid compatibility table. I have found that the most common material used for O-rings and likely the default when no material is mentioned is nitrile. Provided one can avoid petroleum products, I think there are better material choices available.

Yeah, I saw that table, but holy crap are there a lot of listings!

Generally speaking, I prefer to use petroleum lubricants when I can, so I suppose for me the approach is more along the lines of finding materials that tolerate petroleum. Silicone has its place in situations where at least one mating surface is non-metallic, and Teflon makes a useful additive to either petroleum or silicone oil, but petroleum just "feels right" on bare metal -- and I think the fact that engines are still lubricated with petroleum instead of silicone (which in theory might never need to be changed, if it worked at all) backs me up on my observations.

So, assuming a preference for petroleum lubes, I've found that silicone is actually the best seal material to use with it, because the fundamental chemical incompatibility between the silicone rubber and the petroleum oil makes petroleum-lubricated silicone very slippery -- I think the interface might actually be wear-free in the long term, or as close to it as possible. The orange O-rings in my Arc6, PD-S, and Lunasol certainly seem to love it.

Speaking of color, do you know if the silicone O-rings sold by AOP are black or orange, or can you specify color?

Also, why do you prefer EPDM rubber over nitrile rubber? That's not a challenge, just a request for information.

 

[McGizmo]

.....

Speaking of color, do you know if the silicone O-rings sold by AOP are black or orange, or can you specify color?

Also, why do you prefer EPDM rubber over nitrile rubber? That's not a challenge, just a request for information.

I have no issue with you but I sure do feel I have already shot my wad when it comes to discussing lubes. I think the synthetics have much to offer and are overkill in these flashlights just as the justification of what works in an engine might be considered overkill here. Whatever floats ones boat.

The silicone from AOP is orange and that is why the silicone O-rings i use and install on the lights are orange (I get them from AOP as I might have mentioned). I don't know if they stock or offer silicone in blue or black and I suppose a phone call would be the best way to find out.

I prefer EPDM because it will hold up well in a non petroleum environment with or without any lube. I think I mentioned that, too. Nitrile if not protected with a lube will succumb to Ozone and I have seen failed O-rings in some SureFire lights in places that are not user serviceable. This was a few years back and I have no idea if this was ever addressed. I have seen nitrile fail on boats as well and some serious damage resulting from the failure.

I seem to recall some serious seal failures in autos a few years back when the gas started having new additives, was it ethanol? I had a GMC truck that I waited for the engine to break in and then switched to synthetic oil. This has been proven to decrease friction and improve longevity as well as enhance mileage (proven to my acceptance, anyway) Well all was great except that some of the seals in the truck which were likely buna or nitrile didn't handle the synthetic lubes well and I ended up with some annoying oil leaks!

 

[fyrstormer]

Thanks, that's useful information. I didn't know nitrile was more vulnerable to ozone than EPDM.

Regarding synthetic oils and oil leaks: when synthetic oils first came out, they were comprised entirely of poly-alpha-olefins, which as I understand it are less volatile than esters (which is what natural oils are mostly made of), but PAOs cause vulnerable types of rubber to shrink whereas esters cause it to swell. Since natural oil is mostly made of esters, the less-advanced rubber seals on older engines would soak them up and swell, which would cause a tighter seal but also affect the way the seals wore down to mate with the parts they sealed against. Switching to the first generation of synthetic oil, which had no esters in it, would cause the seals to shrink back to their original sizes, opening gaps in the seals where they had worn down while swollen. Newer synthetic oils are formulated to contain enough esters to mitigate this effect, while still retaining enough of the less volatile PAOs so they can still provide better lubrication.

That being said, some of the newest synthetic oils (called Group 5) are completely ester-based, which I guess makes them more biodegradeable, and yet they somehow are still superior to natural oils. In an older engine I assume the swell-inducing properties of such oils would help eliminate leaks that Group 3 & 4 synthetics would allow to persist, and Group 1 & 2 synthetics would make even worse.

Anyway, what I learned about breaking in an engine is to put cheap oil in it and drive it like you hate it for about 50 miles, then drain and refill with synthetic. In that short a period of time, there will be no effect on the seals no matter what kind of oil you use. The point of driving it hard is that the strong combustion will put a lot of pressure behind the piston rings, causing them to break in as quickly as possible. I think the 1000-mile rule is just a way for car companies to hedge their bets on engines that just barely pass Quality Control, so they break in really slowly and experience a minimal risk of premature failure.

Ah, all the esoteric crap I need to know to keep a Volkswagen running...:shakehead