Flashlight_Bug
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2009
- Messages
- 31
Why worry. Just remove all the batteries. But you should still keep the Kong - you can always use it to club any night burglar
TK Monster Explosion
- Thread starter dcaprilia
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
Why worry. Just remove all the batteries. But you should still keep the Kong - you can always use it to club any night burglar
Illum
Flashaholic
Why worry. Just remove all the batteries. But you should still keep the Kong - you can always use it to club any night burglar
if you know of a mechanics shop nearby, toss it in the parts washer basin and have it cleaned before you go about carrying it around
LightJaguar
Enlightened
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2007
- Messages
- 321
The OP has got a lot of fault for what happened to him. He should have known better specially since the light/batteries were used.
I wonder if he even owns a good quality multimeter to check his cells and flashlight components? With that sort of flashlight a good quality meter like a fluke is a must.
I'm constantly checking all of my cells and keep them separated in different plastic containers. The cells on my EDC lights are checked almost daily to give me an idea of how discharged a battery is.
I do this for pretty much all of my flashlights even my non rechargeable type. Part of it is that I don't like having discharged batteries in my flashlights and have them go off on me suddenly. I also monitor my cells when they are beign charged and keep track of how long it takes them to get charged. As soon as they are done I check em with a meter, let them rest and check them again.
I don't treat my single 18650 or CR123s like toys and if I had a TK monster I would be extremely careful.
Remember what Spidey man's uncle said: "WITH GREAT POWER THERE MUST ALSO COME - - GREAT RESPONSIBILITY!"
Sticking questionable batteries into an 8 battery pack is very irresponsible!
I wonder if he even owns a good quality multimeter to check his cells and flashlight components? With that sort of flashlight a good quality meter like a fluke is a must.
I'm constantly checking all of my cells and keep them separated in different plastic containers. The cells on my EDC lights are checked almost daily to give me an idea of how discharged a battery is.
I do this for pretty much all of my flashlights even my non rechargeable type. Part of it is that I don't like having discharged batteries in my flashlights and have them go off on me suddenly. I also monitor my cells when they are beign charged and keep track of how long it takes them to get charged. As soon as they are done I check em with a meter, let them rest and check them again.
I don't treat my single 18650 or CR123s like toys and if I had a TK monster I would be extremely careful.
Remember what Spidey man's uncle said: "WITH GREAT POWER THERE MUST ALSO COME - - GREAT RESPONSIBILITY!"
Sticking questionable batteries into an 8 battery pack is very irresponsible!
The battery vented anhydrous hydrofluoric acid. This is formed by the reaction of the lithium hexafluoride electrolyte with water.
The Sony Konion cells are LiMN batteries, correct? Do they also contain, or rather create, anhydrous hydrofluoric acid? How about other chemistries, lithium, nickel, or whatever?
As to the idea of venting the battery tube, I must agree with others that you would have to have enough holes to make it look like swiss cheese to vent the gasses fast enough
For those who haven't seen the videos for the lipo charging sack, they are pretty cool, check it out.
http://www.liposack.com/video.htm
It just seems there is way to much gas expelling at too quick a rate to vent through a few pin holes. I especially like the part where the aquarium blows up
The battery vented anhydrous hydrofluoric acid. This is formed by the reaction of the lithium hexafluoride electrolyte with water.
The Sony Konion cells are LiMN batteries, correct? Do they also contain, or rather create, anhydrous hydrofluoric acid? How about other chemistries, lithium, nickel, or whatever?
As to the idea of venting the battery tube, I must agree with others that you would have to have enough holes to make it look like swiss cheese to vent the gasses fast enough
)
Let me ask what I think is the same question another way, if these LiMN cells exploded and vented harmful gases, in what sense are they properly called safe chemistry?
They will vent, but I believe they won't vent with flames.
Now this site:http://www.kennedyalternativeenergy.com/lifepo4.html
attempts to explain the different chemistries somewhat.
LiFePO is considered a safe chemistry and states it is non-toxic. LiCo cant burst into flames and are toxic. Where LiMn falls into that I am not sure.
Any battery can vent if heated, but not all chemistries can go into thermal runaway? (I am asking, not telling)
Now this site:http://www.kennedyalternativeenergy.com/lifepo4.html
attempts to explain the different chemistries somewhat.
LiFePO is considered a safe chemistry and states it is non-toxic. LiCo cant burst into flames and are toxic. Where LiMn falls into that I am not sure.
Any battery can vent if heated, but not all chemistries can go into thermal runaway? (I am asking, not telling)
Stillphoto
Flashlight Enthusiast
Another curiosity...Battery venting / explosions aside, if high powered lights like this had some sort of vent holes in the tail or body, that would alleviate the "pipe bomb" results right? Yes I know the light would no longer be water proof, but it would be a hell of a lot safer no?
Fresh Light
Enlightened
I was thinking something more along the lines of a screwed in rubber cap section. I figure rubber bullets are better than an explosion. But even with a vent hole i still see these things taking off like rockets.
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Hello William Lafferty,
LiMn cells are safer than LiCo cells in that it takes a higher temperature to bring them to thermal runaway, and a higher overcharge voltage before they rapidly vent (sometimes with flame). They are safer, but not "safe" in the absolute sense of the word.
While they can endure more abuse, they can still rapidly vent, sometimes with flame.
LiFePo cells are safer yet. They can take even more abuse and only seem to vent, rather than "vent with flame." However, a rapid vent is still very close to an explosion.
Tom
LiMn cells are safer than LiCo cells in that it takes a higher temperature to bring them to thermal runaway, and a higher overcharge voltage before they rapidly vent (sometimes with flame). They are safer, but not "safe" in the absolute sense of the word.
While they can endure more abuse, they can still rapidly vent, sometimes with flame.
LiFePo cells are safer yet. They can take even more abuse and only seem to vent, rather than "vent with flame." However, a rapid vent is still very close to an explosion.
Tom
march.brown
Flashlight Enthusiast
.
This torch and other multi-cell Li-Ion torches are basically pressure vessels like an oxygen or acetylene cylinder ... When the faulty cells vented, the pressure build-up would compress the other cells in the torch and make them even more likely to vent ... This is a chain reaction that would be unstoppable after the first cell vented ... The pressure must have been immense to blow the torch apart at a non-threaded section, so it must have compressed the other cells considerably.
Thank God the user was quick thinking enough to drop the torch and dive onto his bench ... If the torch had rolled under the bench, there might have been a very eye-watering injury, unless the bench was bullet/bomb-proof.
I must admit that I would not consider a multi-cell Li-Ion based torch even though some of the chemistries are supposed to be almost danger-free ... I think that my five single-cell 18650 torches will be enough for me until a totally danger-free chemistry is available.
From now on, I will be checking the voltage on all of my eight 18650s once a month and I will be keeping a log of the results ... I don't use my torches a lot, so they may only need recharging/topping up every three months or so ... Should I top-up the cells if they are down to 3.9V to 4.0V or leave them a bit longer ?
I've just realised that I have a Solarforce L2 and a Romisen RC-U4 sitting on my desk top within two feet of me ... I think i'm paranoid now !
.
This torch and other multi-cell Li-Ion torches are basically pressure vessels like an oxygen or acetylene cylinder ... When the faulty cells vented, the pressure build-up would compress the other cells in the torch and make them even more likely to vent ... This is a chain reaction that would be unstoppable after the first cell vented ... The pressure must have been immense to blow the torch apart at a non-threaded section, so it must have compressed the other cells considerably.
Thank God the user was quick thinking enough to drop the torch and dive onto his bench ... If the torch had rolled under the bench, there might have been a very eye-watering injury, unless the bench was bullet/bomb-proof.
I must admit that I would not consider a multi-cell Li-Ion based torch even though some of the chemistries are supposed to be almost danger-free ... I think that my five single-cell 18650 torches will be enough for me until a totally danger-free chemistry is available.
From now on, I will be checking the voltage on all of my eight 18650s once a month and I will be keeping a log of the results ... I don't use my torches a lot, so they may only need recharging/topping up every three months or so ... Should I top-up the cells if they are down to 3.9V to 4.0V or leave them a bit longer ?
I've just realised that I have a Solarforce L2 and a Romisen RC-U4 sitting on my desk top within two feet of me ... I think i'm paranoid now !
.
A little paranoia can be a good thing. I am very glad the original poster shared his experience. And I think we can all draw many conclusions.
The "venting" issue has been discussed before. For the most part I try to steer away from lights that can't be used with a single Li-ion cell. But, I do wish this topic would be addressed by our flashlight makers and reviewers.
dcaprilia: Don't worry about anhydrous hydrofluoric acid if your eyes didn't start burning and you didn't have trouble breathing right away your good to go.:thumbsup:
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No, you should let them sit at 3.8-3.9V and charge them when ready for use.
dcaprilia
Enlightened
I shared this experience to create awareness not to judge fault.
Thanks Elliot. Good thing it was pretty windy that night.
I spoke with a doctor and he said to observe if I have any odd symptoms. So far, I have none. If I grow a third eye, Ill post pics for sure.:naughty:
Dear Members- Good news! The building was able to source out another supplier for the damaged glass. Total damage is P398,000 (previous quote P515,000) or around $8,600. The best part is that the insurance will cover the damage. The deductible is roughly $100 which I will gladly pay for.
Fhew! That made my week!
Thank you again for the concern and the offer to help pay for damages.
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Henk_Lu
Flashlight Enthusiast
You're right, that's the way to go. Accidents as this one shouldn't happen, if they do, they must serve to others as a warning.
I think the manufacturer of the light acted somewhat irresponsible in assuming that customers know about the potential dangers of such a bunch of high capacity li-ions sticked together. There should be a warning paper included with the light where the correct procedure to handle the cells and the light are explained, the dangers as well.
I began with li-ions only two months ago and I was glad I already knew that dangers exist and so I searched CPF up and down for detailed explanations. I restrict li-ion use to singles, I don't even put 2 x RCR123 in a light, if I need more than one cell, I take primaries or IMR. I wonder if you can feed the TK Monster with 8 x IMR? You loose over half the capacity, but to my understanding you avoid dangers as well.
Olight developped a battery-pack for their SR-90, as they were afraid to see such accidents happen. The battery pack, similar to a laptop or a cell phone battery, makes sure the cells are always well balanced and it is much easier to charge. That isn't possible for custom lights however...
If this happened to me, I wonder if I would have let the light fall on the floor? For sure, that was the only right thing to do, saved you from being really injured. It's not easy to do however, if you hold a brand new and expensive light in your hand!
A few weeks ago, a young man (not a juvenile fool however) died here after an accident with a firework rocket on new years eve. I don't know what sort of rocket it was and what exactly happened, as press didn't speak about an illegal item (reserved for professionnal use) I suppose it was a legal one as they are sold for such occasions and which are considered somewhat safe. I wonder what has more explosive energy, an 18650 or a legal firework rocket?
Stay safe with your rechargeables everybody!
I am not sure everyone here realizes that the cells the OP was using in the light are LiMn cathode.
If you were to look at this shootout performed by Luxluthor, whom we can all agree is somewhat of an authority, they fall into group C, "Safe" Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese cathode. IMR would fall into that catagory as well. There is also discussion of Konion vs IMR here.
gswitter
Flashlight Enthusiast
The manufacturer didn't sell the light to the OP. Even if the manufacturer included further warnings/documentation/etc with the light, there's no guarantee they'll still be with the light when it's resold.
Witnessonly
Newly Enlightened
Good news on the health side of things! Great to hear....
And yeah:twothumbs for the insurance coming through, I suppose you didn't put the flashlight on the claim :naughty:
On second thoughts...
And yeah:twothumbs for the insurance coming through, I suppose you didn't put the flashlight on the claim :naughty:
On second thoughts...
Good for you! Good News!
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