Toyota Prius Pre and Post purchase questions.

[BB]

Cobb,

Do you have a source for the "upgrade" battery for the Prius... Granted, I don't follow cars like I did 40 years ago--but I am not aware that there is, today, any battery capacity or plug-in charger options for the Prius that are factory approved...

The only ones I am aware of are a few folks that have done the experiment with their own cars and parts (with lots of warning about dangers, unknowns, and that you do this as your own risk)--no factory support or authorization.

There maybe something in the next year or two available (I hope)--but not yet(?).

Also, just to be clear, I don't think that there is any "switch" that allows you to control the propulsion battery's level of charge (flip switch, charge battery, then can run 3 miles on battery only for the next trip)... So, when the gas engine runs or not--is just based on the current needs, as calculated by the energy management computer.

Again, not that this is a problem--but there is not too much you can do to "hack" an otherwise stock car (there is a switch you can put in to force electric only while there is still charge available in the battery--may be available as an option--like in Europe for electric car only zones).

-Bill

 

[Turbo DV8]

Let me see if I am getting this: For $24K, one can get a Prius that returns an honest 45 mpg. If one plans to drive the car for 75,000 miles over the next ten years, at $3.50/gallon, one would spend $5800 on gas. Or, for $10K less than a Prius, one could buy a Corolla, which gives an honest 25 mpg, and spend only $4700 more than the Prius in gas.

 

[gadget_lover]

Turbo Dv8, That's not a real good comparison. You could also buy a moped and get even better gas milage, but you'd be causing more polution and you'd have less comfort. The same applies to the Corolla vs Prius argument. One should least pick a car that is in the same size class. Even better, pick one that is equal in all areas.

On pure economics, you will never do better than if you buy a beat up piece of trash and drive it till the wheels fall off. There are other factors in play.


Daniel

 

[icecube]

If your friend at work brags that he gets 60 mpg all the time, he's exaggerating. That design (the Civic) is more likely to be impacted by driving style since the ICE runs almost 100% of the time that the car is moving.

Daniel

I used to "slicks" for Civic 8th gen Hybrids. First hand experience: The motor only assists the engine to any real extent from starting up to about 1500RPM, then you can feel the engine torque curve kick in. The engine runs nearly continously, only shutting off when coming to a stop after a certain distance has been traveled, and restarts if you put it into Park.

Personally, I would rather get like a 7th gen Civic (previous generation) with a five-speed, if I was to get a Civic. Of course my views will be tainted because I prefer BMWs, and older ones at that. The E30 325e models, which I owned once, got around 25mpg all around, with 30+ (35 was best) highway, with dirty fuel injectors. The 528e should get about the same, since it has the same engine, but not bad for a 121hp 2.7 inline-six of mid-80's period. My 325is gets around 23 all around, and just above 30 highway.

Wouldn't get the Civic. Not only to mention they are a little on the expensive side, and don't come with five-speeds.

 

[turbodog]

So swap corolla with impala. Buy domestic... even better.

Let me see if I am getting this: For $24K, one can get a Prius that returns an honest 45 mpg. If one plans to drive the car for 75,000 miles over the next ten years, at $3.50/gallon, one would spend $5800 on gas. Or, for $10K less than a Prius, one could buy a Corolla, which gives an honest 25 mpg, and spend only $4700 more than the Prius in gas.

 

[gadget_lover]

Ok, I compared a 2007 Chevy impala with the median (LT) trim *. Two door with 3.9 V6. $24,960 MSRP per Kelly Blue book. 21 MPG per EPA.

So that's the same purchase price with 10 times the polution and 1/2 the gas mileage. If I were Cobb I'd still go with the Prius.


Daniel

* The Impala was straight LT trim with no optional accessories. You can exceed $30,000 with options.

 

[benighted]

Good choice on the Prius. Mine is a black '05 package 4 (everything except GPS NAV and bluetooth) and I've been very happy with it to the extent that I could never see myself driving a different car. I suggest you get a package the safety options like VSC (vehicle stability control) and side curtain airbags. HID is a nice option too.

 

[benighted]

Its not all about gas mileage too, the Prius would still be a nice car if it got 25 MPG. I forgot to mention I drive a LOT, over 30,000 miles a year so I save over $250 a month in fuel compared to the Silverado I drove before the Prius.
I average 53 MPG

 

[gadget_lover]

I have got to agree with Benighted. I've put 49,800 miles on my Prius in 5 years, and I like it better than any other car that I've owned or rented.... Well, the $70,000 Jaguar was a bit nicer.


Daniel

 

[Turbo DV8]

Turbo Dv8, That's not a real good comparison. You could also buy a moped and get even better gas mileage, but you'd be causing more pollution and you'd have less comfort. The same applies to the Corolla vs Prius argument. One should least pick a car that is in the same size class. Even better, pick one that is equal in all areas.

I do understand it's not entirely about economics (for those who can afford to play the Green Game) or even gas mileage. But humor me on the comparison one more time. Actually, I was being generous on the comparison in terms of mileage. 25 mpg isn't what my Corolla gets, which regularly gives me 30+ mpg. 25 mpg is more in line with what, say, a Camry gets, much more comparable to the Prius in terms of comfort. But, OK, that aside, don't pay too much attention to my playing Devil's Advocate! I wouldn't mind my next car being a Prius! But I wouldn't kid myself that it's more about being green than economical. I hazard to pose that the net "greenness" of a hybrid isn't quite as squeaky clean as casual glance might first suggest. Sure, a hybrid pollutes less, but no matter how green we might wish it to be, at it's core it still uses a polluting gasoline engine, just like the other masses of cars. And, I can't help but wonder, in exchange for reducing the tailpipe emissions I am personally responsible for creating while motoring down the road, how much more pollution was belched into the air or leeched into the ground at the factory for each hybrid produced, compared to a conventional auto? And when a hybrid's battery gives up the ghost eventually, you have to factor into it's net greenness that one final greenness deficit, it's environmental disposal.

Again, I would buy a hybrid, but not because I fool myself into thinking it will contribute to global cooling. I am not convinced so many people up to this point purchased a Prius based primarily upon environmental concerns, as much as they might sing that song. But I rather see more evidence of people putting more purchasing weight into that little sticker which gets them a free solo ride in the carpool lane, which is borne out in the fact that a used Prius with a carpool access sticker sells for as much as a new Prius without. If it was all about being green, then people would opt for the newer, greener, cleaner-running car. Strip away "The Sticker" from their bumper and toss the solo Prius drivers back into the mix with all the other solo, non-carpool drivers, where they rightly belong, you might see a certain smugness simply vanish away, and being green no longer justifies, to many, the cost of a Prius. With a used Prius with carpool sticker selling for the same amount as a new Prius, buyer's true motives are being exposed, and sales of new Priuses will fall. Just my prediction. Until then, I'll be the guy on the 70 mpg Kawasaki EX250 motorcycle, breezing by you in the now bogged-down carpool lanes here in the SF Bay Area ... bogged down by you, Mr. & Mrs. solo hybrid drivers, funneled from three lanes where you belong, down into one carpool lane along with the other deserving carpoolers ... bogging down what was, before hybrid admittance, a free-flowing progression of traffic. Here's a puzzler: now that the presence of 100,000 solo hybrid drivers have bogged down the carpool lanes to stop-and-go here in the SF Bay Area, I wonder how that makes the solo Prius drivers feel ... knowing that in exchange for a relatively minuscule emissions reduction from their tailpipes, they are causing thousands of times more emissions than that from all the other traffic that their presence now forces to stop-and-go? Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go scout the adverts for a nice, used Prius!

 

[benighted]

From an environmental standpoint it takes takes more energy to make a hybrid than a conventional car, the break-even point is something like 15,000 miles before you start getting into the "green". All fossil-fuel burning vehicles pollute, some just pollute a lot less than others.
The Prius batteries are very reliable, Toyota stopped testing at 300,000 miles because they got tired of driving it without any decrease in battery capacity. The batteries manage such a long life because they are only used between 40%-80% capacity. In other words the battery will never be lower than 40% charge, nor much higher than 80%.
Also, Toyota has a very good battery recycling program

Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company. In a press release, Toyota states, "Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled."

I can't comment about the carpool stickers since I live in a state that doesn't offer them.

 

[LowBat]

I'm not going to buy a hybrid until the plug-in versions are available. Yes I know that may take awhile as the auto makers are reluctant to make them at the moment. In the meantime I'm keeping my 2000 Ford alive until that day comes.

 

[gadget_lover]

As a fellow SF bay area driver, I feel I should point out a few inaccuracies in Turbo DV8's last post.....

First, the mileage numbers. When comparing mine VS yours, we wither have to use the EPA numbers or our own experience, but you can't mix and match. You also have to use the same rating; IE you can't use the worst ever rating for one car while using the best ever rating for the other.

Now we get to the value of the car. Yes, the car pool sticker is nice, but almost 1/2 of all hybrids were sold before any were allowed in in HOV lanes. The value of the car holds because 1) The car has had some great natural publicity due to it's uniqueness. 2) The cars hold up exceedingly well, especially in commute use. 3) Most owners don't want to sell, so there is a shortage.

Car pool lanes clogged? Bah. The car pools are not clogged with hybrids. They are clogged with cars. Try sitting on an overpass and counting the number of cars with and without stickers. You will see hybrids, cars with CNG stickers, car poolers, mothers with children and electric vehicles. You will see commuter vans. When I look, I see less than 1 in 10 being stickered from any category. Where do these lanes slow down? Where they dump two highways together or as they end, of course. Just like any other. There are not 100,000 hybrids in the SF bay area.

A little math on hybrids and car pool lanes. There are only 135,000 hybrids in california. Only 85,000 have car pool stickers in all of California. Of those 85,000 how many are in the bay area? How many of those are actually in car pool lanes at any one time? How many are in diamond lanes solo? I doubt that more than 1 in 10 hybrids are actually in car pool lanes since there are so few of them in the bay area.

Back to reality. I've been in car pool lanes solo about 5 times since 2006. I have friends with hybrids. I've offered test drives, so some of my friends bought because of me. Only one of them live in an area where the car pool lane is part of their daily commute. The rest of us either work in an area where there are no carpool lanes, work hours where the car pools don't apply or just don't commute. I'v spent more time in car pool lanes with others in the car than I have solo, BTW.

The last I heard, the hybrids cause no more polution than any other car to build. While they have some extra parts, they can also lack some parts (the Prius transmision, for instance). The battery packs are all using technologies that can be recycled, so it's not like that nasty nickel from the NiMH battery is going back into the ground.

I won't address the abilty to eke 70 MPG on crowded highways out of a Kawasaki EX250 rated at 50 MPG. Good for you.

I bought A Prius because it's one of the worlds biggest gadgets. And my truck gets 11 MPG; 5 mpg in stop and go commute. And I was facing a one way 40 mile per day commute through the worst traffic in California. And it was comfortable. And it polutes 1/50th the amount of my truck. And it promised to have great reasale. And my wife liked it. And I needed a new car. and. and. and.

And one last parting comment. What the hell is the "Green Game"? What are the rules? Can my wife play too? All sarcasm aside... If you have a coice between a car that polutes less and one that polutes more, for about the same price, why not go for the cleaner one? Anyone who lives in Silicon Valley knows there are still days when the smog is too thick to see more than a mile down the road. If all the $35,000 SUVS were replaced with $25,000 hybrids, there might be fewer days like that. Yes, a Chevy Tahoe costs up to $20,000 more than the best equipped Prius, and gets 1/3 the milage, and the freeway around here is full of them with only one passenger.

Daniel (Yes, I like my air like I like my vodka, Pure and Clear)

 

[BIGIRON]

I'm certainly not going to get in the "I'm greener than you" game.

When we bought our Prius, I did the requisite research, test drives, talking with other owners, etc. The P'car won hands down, based upon OUR needs and plans. It may not fit anyone elses needs or desires.

At least three P'cars have been sold because of test drives and converstions about ours. I loaned the Owner Manual to two prospective buyers for their research. I also talked one LOL, who drives about 5,000 miles per year in her trouble free Saturn, out of buying one.

As far as greenness, I feel good about the low emmissions and fuel economy of the car. I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it.

As the boys on South Park said, "Hybrids may not be the solution, but they're a start".

 

[cobb]

Turbo dv8, if I could buy a carolla for 14 grand we wouldnt be having this conversation. There nearly 19 grand at my local dealer and the sedan yaris is 17 grand and change. If I wanted a 4 door hatch back, the cheapest thing at the toyota dealer is the scion xa or xb. At leaset they are fully loaded. Of course fuel economy varies with driving style, nor have I sat in one to see how roomie it is, both are at 14 grand.

I like the yaris hatch back at 14 grand and change for auto and ac, but the sedan is what I would need to get for room for the folks and again, thats more than I am willing to spend, 17 grand in change. The carolla has been on my list, at least til I saw them at the dealer for their price. Since the tax rebate and my employer rebate, it makes the prius the next right priced car.

I think the honda owner that gets 60mpg has an insight vs civic hybrid. He doesnt seem to be much of a car guy and doesnt drive hte car to work, go figure.

BB, I dont have a source, but I am aware of three kits out there, one from Canada that doubles the range of all hybrids out there. I think there on a webpage for plug in hybrids somewhere. I think the price range is 6-12 grand.

A well made car doesnt need a warranty and after a few years if it goes well, I would consider a kit like that or maybe wire up one myself. Of course 20 12 volt 7 amp slas may not be that light or a load to put in the trunk area.

 

[BB]

Here is a link with a few companies listed... Some are upwards of $12,500 to convert one Prius--$9,500 each to convert 100 Prii.

The "open source" Do It Yourself project would still be $5,000 and two weeks of time... Hmmm. Not sure I even want to open that link to see what is required.

-Bill

 

[Turbo DV8]

As a fellow SF bay area driver, I feel I should point out a few inaccuracies in Turbo DV8's last post.....

Not sure I understand your comment. Nowhere did I mention EPA ratings, which we know are bunk. Prius driver's report real world 50 mpg, and Camry owner's see 25 mpg real world. Isn't that within a gnat's-*** of what I said?

Car pool lanes clogged? Bah. The car pools are not clogged with hybrids. They are clogged with cars. Try sitting on an overpass and counting the number of cars with and without stickers. When I look, I see less than 1 in 10 being stickered from any category... Of those 85,000 how many are in the bay area? How many of those are actually in car pool lanes at any one time? How many are in diamond lanes solo? I doubt that more than 1 in 10 hybrids are actually in car pool lanes since there are so few of them in the bay area.

That's an awful lot of questions with no answers. The only answers I need to see are the ones I see when I am motorcycle lane splitting between a bogged down carpool lane and it's adjacent lane during my 101 commute on the Peninsula. First off, the comment that there are "so few hybrids in the Bay Area" is absolutely absurd! The Bay Area has the highest concentration of hybrid vehicles in the entire state, and it's no secret why, being in the tech center of the state. Now, for my personal observations, as I pass between the clogged masses. I'm not pulling numbers out of the hat. Many times I have passed between slowed cars in the carpool lanes and counted conventional cars between Priuses, and the occasional Honda hybrid. The highest ratio I have ever counted between hybrids in the carpool lane on 101 during the rush is 1:7, and the lowest ratio 1:4, and on several occasions, two hybrids in a row. And I don't have to guess how many of those are solo drivers, because I have a birds-eye view into your cars from my saddle, better than any you get from your distant overpass. It is easier for me to just say how many hybrids I have passed in the carpool lane which are there legitimately, with more than one occupant: two. So, do hybrids bog down the carpool lanes? You tell me, will adding up to 25% more vehicles traveling in, and trying to get into and out of, a single carpool lane cause it to bog down? I think just maybe, dontcha? And when I get to the front of a pack of bogged down cars in the carpool lane, guess who is most often leading the pack of boggedness? Why, it's Mr. Solo Hybrid driver, obliviously tooling along at a snails pace, with nothing more on his mind than trying to maximize his gas mileage that extra fraction of a percentage.

I won't address the abilty to eke 70 MPG on crowded highways out of a Kawasaki EX250 rated at 50 MPG. Good for you.

"Eke?" Sorry, but 70 mpg from my EX250 is real-world, on a bad day. When I eke, which isn't during commute, it's closer to 80 mpg. Even the EX500 returns 64 mpg average, real-world. It's not hard to pull those mpg figures off on a crowded highway when you don't have to constantly stop-n-go in bumper to bumper traffic. Just a steady, leisurely pace between the cars doing the stop-n-go dance will get me 70 mpg any day.

And one last parting comment. What the hell is the "Green Game"? What are the rules? Can my wife play too?

The "Green Game" is a cute little phrase I came up with on the spur of the moment to paint with a broad brush the political hypocrisy that so often seems to go hand in hand with being Green. Hybrid drivers are already a pawn in it. I know in Oregon, at least, Hybrid drivers take it up the tushy at the state DMV when it comes time to hand over their money to register their Green cars. The state is so worried about losing so much money in gas taxes from hybrid use, they jack up the registration. On the one hand, government claims to want to encourage clean air, then it turns around and hands out a disincentive like that. The hybrid driver will pay less for gas, but more to register. See? A game. Political. How about another example? On one hand, a government bureaucracy establishes itself to monitor an industry's emissions, and fine it if they exceed limits. Yet, on the other hand, the bureaucracy will sell that same industry clean air "credits," basically a license to pollute. "We're here for your own good, to make sure you don't pollute ... but if you pay us enough, we could be persuaded to look the other way." Two-faced, money-based, political hypocrisy, and not too many people seem to know or care that it goes hand-in-hand with being Green these days. That is what I mean when I coin the phrase "The Green Game."

But I still want a Prius ...

 

[gadget_lover]

Thanks for bringing this subject back. It prompted me to scan the web for some figures, and I came across the report "Effectiveness of High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) Lanes in the San Francisco Bay Area" at http://paleale.eecs.berkeley.edu/~varaiya/papers_ps.dir/HOV.pdf.

It seems we have about 260 miles of HOV lanes in the greater bay area. In a study done in 2000, 24% of the HOV lanes carried fewer than the mandated minimum 800 vehicles per hour. I know things have changed since then, but that's an interesting stat. It would seem that in some areas, the HOV lanes are underused without hybrids, and in others they are overused either way. Personally, I think HOV lanes are a bad idea, since they cause congestion in the other lanes.

I brought the EPA figures up simply because one needs a common measuring stick. If you want to go with best milage based on memory, I have several pictures of my trip meter showing in excess of 70 MPG over a 15 minute period on a busy LA area freeway. I have a 100 mile stretch going into arizona that used just over a gallon.

I have not been able to find the exact figures for the number of HOV eligeble hybrids in the SF bay area. Nor have I found any on the exact number of hybrids typically in the HOV lanes in silicon valley. It seems there should be something available.

Cobb, Have you had a chance to test drive a 2007 Prius yet? If so, What were your impressions?

Daniel

 

[Turbo DV8]

Personally, I think HOV lanes are a bad idea, since they cause congestion in the other lanes.

I agree totally. Plus, I feel that if everyone's taxes go to maintain that lane, then it is unjust to exclude those taxpayers from using that lane.

 

[wwglen]

This website:

http://www.priups.com/riddle/answer-1.htm

talks about using a prius as a backup generator fou your house.

wwglen