Toyota Recalls - Observations?

[tino_ale]

To me it looks like he made it, but he surely must have wet his pants

 

[StarHalo]

I can't fight the urge to to tell the pedestrian "don't step into the intersection!" each time. I sorta feel bad that we don't know what happens to him.

He cleared the bus by about a foot, but to be fair, running into an intersection without even looking earns you that kind of reminder.

The footage is from last October in Perm, Russia; the bus lost its brakes and rocketed through several city blocks, collecting a pile of cars along the way (20 destroyed in all) before finally plowing into a raised stage area in the city square. Only four people were injured, all passengers on the bus.

So before anyone else gets to it: In Soviet Russia, bus stops YOU.

 

[StarHalo]

UPDATE: The U.S. Department of Transportation has spent a few months analyzing several dozen data recorders from a broad range of Toyota products involved in sudden-acceleration accidents; according to the data, the total number of accidents where the brake pedal was applied at all came to a grand total of ..one. In every other instance, the data shows that the throttle was floored and the brakes were never touched, consistent with a driver panicking and pressing the accelerator instead of the brake.

The one case in which the brake pedal was depressed was the incident with the Highway Patrolman and the Lexus, which has since been traced to the pedal becoming stuck on the floor mat (and still the sole case where the floor mat was to blame.)

Despite ongoing efforts by the Department of Transportation AND the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration AND Toyota, there has been no throttle/electronic hardware flaw found to date. All involved are committed to continuing the search, and the NHTSA is conducting a broader study in conjunction with NASA which will require several more months.

Meanwhile, Toyota continues its tour of endless apologies and fix attempts; this recent service bulletin to Pontiac Vibe mechanics advises removing the entire throttle assembly, wrapping the sensor hardware in bubblewrap, and sawing the base of the pedal off so it's physically impossible for it to catch on anything..

Full Story

 

[Monocrom]

Something just sounds fishy with that conclusion. It seems weird that in all of the other reported cases, it was not about hitting the brakes and having the car accelerate.

Not sure if she reported it regarding her Camry, but my best friend's wife mentioned just the other day that it wasn't just because of the reports that she turned her car in. She mentioned hitting the brakes and the car accelerating. Thankfully, she didn't panic. She put the Camry in neutral, and it slowed to a stop.

I had originally thought that she had gotten concerned with all of the reported cases of issues with the brakes. Turns out, she experienced it for herself. Turned in the Camry. Got herself a Saturn Aura instead.

 

[Steve K]

UPDATE: The U.S. Department of Transportation has spent a few months analyzing several dozen data recorders from a broad range of Toyota products involved in sudden-acceleration accidents; according to the data, the total number of accidents where the brake pedal was applied at all came to a grand total of ..one.

Several dozen data recorders? I thought there were thousands of incidents. Heck, I've got a brother-in-law that had this problem on a few occasions, and Toyota hasn't bothered looking at his vehicle.

I don't think that looking at several dozen recorders is significant in light of the size of the reported problem. I was really hoping that the DOT was doing more to investigate this.... I'll have to read the linked article and get the whole story.

regards,
Steve K.

 

[Alaric Darconville]

UPDATE: The U.S. Department of Transportation has spent a few months analyzing several dozen data recorders from a broad range of Toyota products involved in sudden-acceleration accidents; according to the data, the total number of accidents where the brake pedal was applied at all came to a grand total of ..one. In every other instance, the data shows that the throttle was floored and the brakes were never touched, consistent with a driver panicking and pressing the accelerator instead of the brake.

So, either the vast majority of Toyota drivers are panicking idiots that can't tell one pedal from another, or the data they're reading is from the same faulty ECU that is ignoring pedal input and just merrily accelerating.

I'm going with the data being read from a faulty ECU.

Otherwise, it's like this:
Cop 1: I think Joey the Weasel killed Billy the Rat.
Cop 2: Hey, Joey, did you kill Billy?
Joey: Nope! And since I was the only one in the alley where you found me and Billy, you have no other data source to check. Never mind that Billy is dead and with a knife in the back of his throat-- I say I didn't stab him! He confused his knife with a candy bar, and panicked, and jammed the knife in his mouth. It's OBVIOUS!
Cop 2: See, there you have it! Joey, you're free to go

 

[Steve K]

So, either the vast majority of Toyota drivers are panicking idiots that can't tell one pedal from another, or the data they're reading is from the same faulty ECU that is ignoring pedal input and just merrily accelerating.

I'm going with the data being read from a faulty ECU.

I'm inclined to agree. If the general public is this incompetent (and I'm not ruling this out), why doesn't the same problem show up with every make of car?

As a EE with plenty of experience with sensor design and a modest amount of experience in writing assembler code for ECU's, I know that both can have very subtle failure modes.

The sensor is dual redundant, so a single failure is unlikely to occur. There may still be ways for a single failure to produce a valid output. For instance, if a large magnet were to be near the sensor, it could cause a change in output (this was one of my standard tests for hall cell sensors). Depending on how the car is wired, there may be a chance that a single intermittent wire problem could produce both sensor output signals to shift.

As for the ECU, there are plenty of ways that either a software problem or a hardware problem could cause intermittent uncommanded fuel delivery.

Unfortunately, unless the DOT has people with the right skills involved in this investigation, they'll never know where to look. I've seen instances where a brief voltage transient caused the microcontroller's software to jump into self-calibration mode, it took us many months to duplicate the problem.

I'd love to see some conclusive results from this investigation, but my expectation is that it will get 6 months of attention and then it'll all just fade away.

regards,
Steve K.

 

[Monocrom]

I just want to clarify my last post.

Toyota owners are some of the most loyal when it comes to car brands. Toyota itself has spent many years fostering a reputation for being both reliable and very non-cut throat. You just don't hear stories of Toyota aggressively trying to put the competition out of business. You just don't. They're known for being competitive, but also for being the nice guy car company.

To me, it just seems extremely odd that one case involving one of their cars malfunctioning in that way, could somehow cause a hysteria involving sooo many reports of similar incidents. I mean, really?? One verified case lead to such mass hysteria that it has put a huge dent in Toyota's legendary reputation for reliability?

It just doesn't add up. That level of mass hysteria due to one incident? Nope, just doesn't add up.

 

[IMSabbel]

Yes, it ads up.

There might have been a few honest incidents.
Then came the denial people "I did NEVER mess up. I heard something on TV and they are at fault".
And then the "1000s" of incidents did suddenly appear after the sweet sweet smell of punitive charges was wafting through the air.

A analysis half a year ago showed that nealy all recorded cases are from old people, half of them already past their due date.

its a typical US situation, where a small cause is fueled by patriotism (IMPORTS!), mass media dominance (we do not have anything important to reports, so lets fill the waves with something), ligitation happiness (I can get how much by just flooring the pedal and driving into something) and the general power of the collective room temperature (in celsius) IQ of combined masses of "concerned" people.

 

[Steve K]

Yes, it ads up.

There might have been a few honest incidents.
Then came the denial people "I did NEVER mess up. I heard something on TV and they are at fault".
And then the "1000s" of incidents did suddenly appear after the sweet sweet smell of punitive charges was wafting through the air.

A analysis half a year ago showed that nealy all recorded cases are from old people, half of them already past their due date.

its a typical US situation, where a small cause is fueled by patriotism (IMPORTS!), mass media dominance (we do not have anything important to reports, so lets fill the waves with something), ligitation happiness (I can get how much by just flooring the pedal and driving into something) and the general power of the collective room temperature (in celsius) IQ of combined masses of "concerned" people.

FWIW, my brother-in-law complained about the first of his incidents of sudden acceleration a few years ago. Toyota was just blowing him off at the time, and is still doing so.

I did find a short blog in the Atlantic mentioning that the folks who died in these incidents had a median age of 60. Half were older, half were younger. I haven't seen any data on the age of the drivers in all of the incidents. Can you point me to the data that you are refering to?

The rest of your hypothesis is interesting... maybe you have some data to back that up too?

regards,
Steve K.

 

[StarHalo]

I did find a short blog in the Atlantic mentioning that the folks who died in these incidents had a median age of 60.

The median age for a Toyota Corolla owner is 48, so I'm sure once you throw in the larger models like the Avalon, the ES, that goes way up; 60 sounds reasonable.

The rest of your hypothesis is interesting... maybe you have some data to back that up too?

Remember that for some time, GM was under a sizable bailout loan by the US Government. The Government had a vested interest in ensuring their product was profitable, so Toyota was no longer just another name competing in a market, they were the foreign brand going up against the company store; we were inundated with Toyota horror stories and recall warnings, up until about March (note that this thread died about then), then in April, GM made the final payment on their loan and was free from the Treasury debt. And then there were no more Toyota stories, it completely vanished as a news item. Logic would have it that if there were some elusive flaw that still existed in Toyotas, there would be a great deal more accidents and incidents, the news story should grow larger over time, but instead it went away entirely along with GM's Government debt..

 

[Steve K]

The median age for a Toyota Corolla owner is 48, so I'm sure once you throw in the larger models like the Avalon, the ES, that goes way up; 60 sounds reasonable.



Remember that for some time, GM was under a sizable bailout loan by the US Government. The Government had a vested interest in ensuring their product was profitable, so Toyota was no longer just another name competing in a market, they were the foreign brand going up against the company store; we were inundated with Toyota horror stories and recall warnings, up until about March (note that this thread died about then), then in April, GM made the final payment on their loan and was free from the Treasury debt. And then there were no more Toyota stories, it completely vanished as a news item. Logic would have it that if there were some elusive flaw that still existed in Toyotas, there would be a great deal more accidents and incidents, the news story should grow larger over time, but instead it went away entirely along with GM's Government debt..

anyone have any data on age of people involved in the incidents?
and if old folks, or anyone, is so lousy of a driver, why is it just Toyotas? And does anyone have any data on the number of incidents reported to NTSA at all?

The conspiracy theory of GM being the preferred auto company is a fun theory, but why attack Toyota? They build a lot of cars in the USA. Why not go after someone like Nissan?

Or for that matter, how when did the story really hit the fan? I don't really know. Before or after GM getting a loan?
How many incidents are still being reported?
I don't know that the media is now ignoring the issue. I just heard a story on NPR about 10 minutes ago about the woman who didn't appear to hit her brakes when she had an incident in a parking ramp. It's in the Chicago Tribune too.....
http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/07/u-s-study-driver-error-in-toyota-sudden-acceleration.html

As far as the assertion "if there were some elusive flaw that still existed in Toyotas, there would be a great deal more accidents and incidents, the news story should grow larger over time, but instead it went away entirely along with GM's Government debt"....
- I haven't seen any data showing the number of incidents reported over time
- what is "a great deal more"? In one part that I've worked with, we were building around 20,000 a year, and we only got 4 or 5 back in a year. There was definitely a design flaw, though.

I don't mind people throwing around crazy theories, but it would be helpful if supporting data could be cited.

regards,
Steve K.

 

[deadrx7conv]

Have several Toyotas in the family. None have had issues.

Had to teach a few friends how to 'stop' their vehicle in-case of a sudden acceleration glitch. Can't believe how incompetent the typical driver is these days. The number of people that don't even know what neutral is or how to shut off their vehicle is amazing.

Media frenzy simply attacking #1 automaker. Jump on the bandwagon.

My sudden acceleration issues with non-Toyotas and Toyotas, usually rentals while on vacation and doing some interstate driving.
Crusing with cruise control set to 65mph. Pass someone and now using gas pedal to keep up with traffic at 75mph. Let up on gas to slow down and at ~63mph, vehicle starts accelerating again by itself. Oops, forgot about cruise control. Tapped the brake pedal to shut it off.

My sudden acceleration issue #2. Waiting in line at car wash, little ol' lady with Cadillac floored gas pedal instead of using brake pedal and destroys 3 cars in line at the car wash. Car wash built on a hill. 20ft drop after fence. My totaled car only inches away from that 20ft drop. Was depressed that no Toyotas were involved!!!

My sudden acceleration issue #3. Frozen gas pedal. For those of you that broke those TB return springs, same feeling. Note to self, don't disconnect those coolant lines warming the TB. Not worth the million HP gain from that cooler dense air 🙂

My sudden acceleration issue #4. Driving with co-workers that use 2 feet to drive and keep getting the gas/brake pedal confused. Advised to trade in their vehicle for Toyotas just in case. This way, they can't blame themselves.

Yawn boring. Maybe Toyota should sue incompetent drivers for slander?

 

[rodfran]

Yes, and take away their driver's license permanently . My senior next door neighbor had one of these runaway accelerations (a Honda actually) and hit a storage shed. Oh by the way, she has vision in only one eye. I asked her what pedal her foot was on and she replied " I don't know but I was terrifed!" So were the residents on that street! About 15 years ago had another senior that was a good friend and a nice lady hit a tree. She didn't make it.
Do society a favor, take the bus or call a taxi!

 

[Monocrom]

My dad is close to 90 and has never accidentally hit the gas when he meant to hit the brakes. Does it happen to others who are elderly? Yup. But if most of the cases involving Toyotas was due to elderly driver error, that would have come out in the report.

My best friend's wife who had a sudden acceleration issue in her Camry, she's 24 years old. And no, she's not the type of person who freaks out while driving. Toyota isn't a brand made up of just elderly drivers. Plenty of families rely on the Camry model as the family car. (Boy, that's a huge understatement. You guys know what I mean.)

Honestly, if there was an elderly brand; Buick would be the nearest thing to that. But you don't hear about a ton of Buicks that accelerate unexpectedly, due to elderly drivers getting confused and hitting the wrong pedal. If that was a significant contributing factor to the problems that Toyota is experiencing, then why is the Buick brand not experiencing the same problems?

 

[Steve K]

If this whole incident (or series of incidents) results in requiring better driver training and more frequent tests of driver skills & knowledge, I'll be a happy camper!

I'm primarily a bicycle commuter, and it's amazing how many people can't cope with a small change like a bike sharing the lane with them. Of course, I also see some bicyclists doing dumb stuff, so there's definitely room for education all across the board.

regards,
Steve K.

 

[jtr1962]

If this whole incident (or series of incidents) results in requiring better driver training and more frequent tests of driver skills & knowledge, I'll be a happy camper!

That makes two of us. For that to happen though we'll need politicians brave enough to put new stricter licensing laws through which may well result in a majority losing their license permanently. Right now unfortunately having a driver's license in the US is practically viewed as a birthright. Most drivers actually think their driving "skills" are good when the opposite is generally the case. I can only imagine the backlash that will happen when granny with her one good eye discovers she can no longer drive.

I'm primarily a bicycle commuter, and it's amazing how many people can't cope with a small change like a bike sharing the lane with them. Of course, I also see some bicyclists doing dumb stuff, so there's definitely room for education all across the board.

The difference is when a cyclist does something stupid, usually they're the only ones getting hurt. Cyclists as a general rule have to be much more competent than your average driver just to survive. Moreover, we're treated to a front-seat view of driving incompetence in all its ugliness.

 

[rodfran]

I was simply making a statement about people that can't tell the accelerator pedal from the brake pedal. Two of these people I know, knew personally. The new information from the black boxes that just came out showed full throttle acceleration and not hitting the brakes.
Testing of black boxes performed by Department of Transportation. The NHTSA reported similar findings.

 

[tino_ale]

It just doesn't add up. That level of mass hysteria due to one incident? Nope, just doesn't add up.

Yes : THAT level of mass hysteria due to both media and other car maker manipulating the public. Even assuming the defects were all to be proven real, the hysteria has simply blown ridiculously out of proportion.

THAT is what's most concerning IMO, not the car maker's alledged screw-ups.

A mass hysteria triggered by unverified data, many inaccurate versions of the same event in the media, people lying to get quick bucks and assumptions assumptions assumptions... all over the place. The whole process is very disturbing.
Human beings are definetely not smarted when in mass. :shrug:

 

[kitelights]

Yes : THAT level of mass hysteria due to both media and other car maker manipulating the public. Even assuming the defects were all to be proven real, the hysteria has simply blown ridiculously out of proportion.

THAT is what's most concerning IMO, not the car maker's alledged screw-ups.

A mass hysteria triggered by unverified data, many inaccurate versions of the same event in the media, people lying to get quick bucks and assumptions assumptions assumptions... all over the place. The whole process is very disturbing.
Human beings are definetely not smarted when in mass. :shrug:

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was wondering what had become of this issue. I Googled it, but everything was old news. Then I heard the new report on the news and was not at all surprised. You can go back and read my position - this was a plain and simple hysterical lynching.

And yes, there are a lot of 'idiots' out there including myself. I can remember two incidents in my 45 years of driving where my foot slipped from the edge of the brake pedal and hit the gas. Fortunately, no accident from it. And yes, it happens with other cars, too ..... I don't think that there's a week that goes by there's not a news story that someone has run their car or truck into a building (often inside of the building). The report is always that they thought they were hitting the brake, but stepped on the gas instead.