Unprotected RCR123s explode in flashlight

[twosouls2gether]

I have been a lurker for a while now. I've gotten into 'flashlights' since earlier this year preparing for camping. Can't go out in the middle of Yellowstone at night without light right? And then you find you can get MORE light with this other flashlight, and blah blah blah... end up with a ton of them. Anywho, I went out for a nice walk out in the woods tonight, because I have to justify having so many flashlights right? I decided to bring my brightest (besides the Sam's HID) which would be the Kaidomain KD 3xSSC LED http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3162. Since it's the end of deer season here, I would prefer to be seen then shot, and 400 lumens ougha let them know I'm coming.

Out for a nice walk with the dog and I, Glo tube blinking on his back (Black lab isn't named Shadow for nothing)... when I decide to try out my Gerber Ultra with RED led, just for fun. Turn it on, play a bit, when all of a sudden . Damn, is someone shooting at me?!?! Nope, I realize immidiatly that the damn lithiums have exploded in my Kai flashlight. Toss that sucker way in front of me and stand back. Nothing right away. Put away that pathetic red led for my Fenix Rebel, decided for a moment if I wanted the 2xAA or 2x123's... but opt for the AA's, don't need to tempt fate. The back tailcap of the Kai flashlight was venting and hissing, melting snow around it. Great, now I'm going to start a fire behind my inlaws house. After a bit the fumes died down (stood upwind for obvious reasons) and I carefully unscrewed the back and dumped the batteries out. One of them had no label left, and was hotter then :devil: since it was melting snow and sizzling, sending out steam. I watched for a while, decided I would NOT pick them up and bring them back since I had no baggie or anything and was not going to touch those nasty lithium chems. Screwed the back onto the flashlight and stuffed her in my pocket. Long story short, after getting turned around once in the woods, I know now that the regular gerber ultra in white is pretty good for night walks. And to also bring GPS and use protected 123's. The funny thing was the flashlight was off at the time it went off. Sounded like a gun shot or fire cracker when that tailcap rubber burst. Lucky that more drastic things didn't happen. Cleaned it up when I got home with gloves. I think the switch may be toast, not sure since I have it drying now in my dessicant jar. The tube had some crap inside on the cylinder but came off. I think a rubber piece may have melted or deformed from the acid in the venting as it looks a little funny. Probably going to have to order that momentary clicky from Kai since I really do love the flashlight.

A question or two, should I email Kai and ask for a replacement switch, since it was their batteries that went poof in the flashlight (I got that battery/charger bundle with the flashlight) or just spend the $5 for that mom. switch. Looks like a complete unit at http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3564. And secondly, why did the battery blow when it was off, most likely something was already in motion when I clicked it off I imagine. Just took a while to continue? Funny thing is after I threw it, the light was semi-on in the grass, though not full power. Something to do with the switch and the fact one battery was on it's way to heck? Or is the head dead? The batteries looked like this https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=2900 if anyone is interested.

Rob

 

[scottaw]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

If they sold you those batts with the light and they didn't work, they should replace everything for you. Glad to hear you and the dog are ok.

 

[Illum]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

you overdischarged a unprotected battery:shrug:

the light may not be running but that doesn't mean the battery's chemical reaction will stop on a dime...
good thing you were upwind and didn't decide to clean up the mess

assuming the cell vented was not the bezel battery the head should be fine....but probably not going to be like new as the accumulation of chemicals on the contacts wont help conduction any

 

[twosouls2gether]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

you overdischarged a unprotected battery:shrug:

the light may not be running but that doesn't mean the battery's chemical reaction will stop on a dime...
good thing you were upwind and didn't decide to clean up the mess

assuming the cell vented was not the bezel battery the head should be fine....but probably not going to be like new as the accumulation of chemicals on the contacts wont help conduction any

Illum - The batteries were charged and only in use for if maybe 5 minutes on the walk out to the small field behind their house. Kaidomain advertised about an hour on their site, and I have run it for longer when I first got it and was playing with it. Although I do believe that they don't stop on a dime, as I figure something along those lines happened. I don't have a habit of checking my batteries off the charger with a DMM, maybe the charger is crap and not fully charging them, hence one cell gets lower and lower? BTW it was the battery closest to the tail cap. Also anything that could clean out those chemical layers? I used dish soap and it seemed to get most of it, and the only thing that I have heard is that they vent hydroflouric acid. Baking soda?

 

[twosouls2gether]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

If they sold you those batts with the light and they didn't work, they should replace everything for you. Glad to hear you and the dog are ok.

scottaw - Thats sort of what I was thinking. To me it seems from what I've read he is sort of a newer start up (early this year IIRC) and so don't want to seriously hurt his company, especially since I don't think it had anything to do with the flashlight, but more of the batteries. Perhaps ask for a refund on the batteries and a new tail cap, since it was the battery nearest that went.

 

[Illum]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

is there a possibility that the charger may have overcharged the cells? causing them to be unstable prior to the first discharge cycle?

whats the charger your using again?

 

[LED_Thrift]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Welcome to CPF. Quite a story. Glad you are OK.
I'm not nearly the authority on batteries as some here are, but I do recall that problems with over discharging usually occur after charging batteries that have been overdischarged. You mentioned that "Kaidomain advertised about an hour on their site, and I have run it for longer when I first got it". Runtime claims from most manufacturers and dealers, like lumen claims, have to be taken with lots of salt. If the claim is about an hour and you ran it for over an hour, you may have over-discharged the batteries then. The problems don't happen when you over-discharge them, but after charging a cell that has been over-discharged.

I would recommend using protected cells, even though they do not provide the same long runtime as the non-protected cells.

 

[twosouls2gether]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

is there a possibility that the charger may have overcharged the cells? causing them to be unstable prior to the first discharge cycle?

whats the charger your using again?

I believe it's a DSD charger? It came with the flashlight and batteries. I suppose it's possible since I'm sure it's a cheapy and the cells have no protection. Certainly looks like this one, and I remember the cheesy packaging that they show in the photos. http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=1579 There is another one that comes with a pair of batteries (those batteries came with it as well if that helps to know) at http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=2900. There is a review at the bottom that claims

"This unit charges 10440/14500 batteries fine and it has auto-off feature to prevent battery being over-charged. It just works."

No idea if it's true. I can go out and grab those other batteries from the woods and give them a charge before I throw them out, since I wont be using those again!

On a related note, I have some more flashlights and 123's coming from Deal Extreme to go with their flashlights. I think they are an Ultrafire charger and some other one. Anyone know if the Ultra is any good? Or is it going to over charge? These would be for one and two cell flashlights. Are there any decent chargers for unprotected cells. I have a Tenergy charger with their protected cells and from what I got out of subtracting four batteries from the price I think the charger cost something like $5. Kind of cheap! But the cells are protected so maybe that's how they get away with it?

 

[moon lander]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

wow im glad you and the dog are ok.

whats the difference between a flashlight and a pipebomb? the tail switch!
seriously, thank god the pressure had an easy way out, the tailswitch blowing out might have saved the light from becoming flying shrapnel.

 

[mdocod]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Firstly, you need to change the title of this thread to

"Unprotected RCR123s explode in flashlight"

The reason I say this, is that you are one of the ONLY people on CPF who have ever had a li-ion cell vent rapidly. MOST CPFers are using protected cells, and the few that are using unprotected are generally doing so with much greater care... I think it would be good to have a thread title that will draw the interest of some of our resident battery experts to ask the right questions and try to figure out what happened.

I am in agreement that more than likely, you over-discharged a cell on a previous run, charged them up, and the cell got violent on the next discharge. This is a VERY likely scenario in a buck-regulated light that has an input voltage of ~14.8V and a output voltage of ~10.5V... It would be VERY easy for one of those cells to fall to 0V and have the other 3 hold the voltage up high enough to continue running the light close to full output.

I don't have a habit of checking my batteries off the charger with a DMM,

Unfortunately, this is not going to fly on unprotected cells. In every purpose built li-ion application, everything from professional grade li-ion flashlights, to laptops, to cell phones, either the DEVICE or the CELLS or the battery pack itself is CONSTANTLY protecting the user from exactly what happened to you. When you take active cell monitoring out of the equation, it becomes the users responsibility to either monitor with a DMM VERY frequently, or the users responsibility to install a circuit to do it form them...

This is why you won't see bare li-ion cells ever sold in any U.S. brick-n-mortar store. Consumers can not be expected to understand or deal with these issues. The liability is too high.


If I were in your shoes, I would take pictures of the situation, and write a long detailed email to KD explaining that your experience should be a lesson to them to STOP recommending the use of unprotected cells in any flashlight. That every li-ion powered flashlight they sell should have a "recommended" cell linked to a protected cell of good quality, or nothing at all. Point out that you could have been seriously injured or made very sick had you not handled the situation in a knowledgeable manner, point out that had it not been for snow on the ground, the unprotected cells could have started a forest fire that could have caused hundreds of thousands of dollars with of property damage. Also point out that a good gesture would be to replace both your flashlight and cells (with quality protected cells).

 

[mdocod]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

On a related note, I have some more flashlights and 123's coming from Deal Extreme to go with their flashlights. I think they are an Ultrafire charger and some other one. Anyone know if the Ultra is any good? Or is it going to over charge? These would be for one and two cell flashlights. Are there any decent chargers for unprotected cells. I have a Tenergy charger with their protected cells and from what I got out of subtracting four batteries from the price I think the charger cost something like $5. Kind of cheap! But the cells are protected so maybe that's how they get away with it?

man you are really into the cheapo li-ion stuff... asking for problems if you ask me.

from now on please consider ordering AW brand cells from here:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=170420
Buy only protected cells unless you have a specialized application that requires the use of an unprotected cell and you are willing to put the DMM to work very frequently on it.

The DSD and WF-139/138 type chargers are reasonable, but even on protected cells I would make a habit of double checking that the cells are going on and coming off the charger in the right range. Also keep in mind that the ultrafire WF-139 is known to overcharge cells IF you leave it on the charger for too long. (after the light goes green).

 

[Illum]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

DSD's continue to trickle charge the batteries even after the indicator has turned green. the AW protected lithiums cut off a little over 4v [by analog DMM ], the change of the light would go from red [charge] to green [ready] and finally red/green indicating the chargers sensing no impedance

 

[mdocod]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

the AW protected lithiums cut off when 4.2V is reached, so the change of the light would go from red to green and finally red/green indicating the chargers sensing no impedance

most PCB circuits are set to trip around 4.3+V, which is still way to high for long cycle life and is merely there to keep the cell safer, not to be used to terminate a proper charge, I have seen no evidence that the AW cell is set to 4.20V. The only cells I am aware of set that low were the OLDer style Pila cells that used the cells PCB to terminate the charge.

My concern is that people might get the impression that protected cells are safer than they really are with that type of misinformation floating around. You still need to properly monitor the charge or use a very high quality charger (like the Pila IBC charger) to really maximize safety.

 

[Burgess]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

So fortunate that this happened --


-- Outdoors

-- In wet conditions (no fire hazard)

-- When nobody else was around


and that you had the knowledge and ability to "toss it far away"
before things got bad.


Consider this to be a warning.
Not just to you, but to ALL users of UNprotected cells.


BTW, lucky that wasn't a Headlamp, eh ?



Glad that you (and your canine companion) survived the experience.

:twothumbs

_

 

[twosouls2gether]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Wow, go and work for a few days and this thing takes off! Well first off if I knew how to change the title I suppose I would. Thought it was somewhat of an attention getter though .

Regarding the one hour runtime and that I ran them longer. Yes I have ran it longer, however no where NEAR one hour, Maybe 30 minutes tops, if that, and not all at once even. I have a habit of charging my batteries every day or two... unless I just don't use the light (when you work and just don't feel like playing sometimes it happens Hooking the head up to my power supply at 12v and 14.4v it only drew 550ma, so one hour does seem resonable. I left it on for a while until the head started to get pretty warm and it stayed right at 550. I never let the cells get low to where they dim, and under 12v with the supply it does get noticably dimmer (so if a cell went to 0v it should have dimmed correct?). I always charge my batteries before I use them, Eneloop, NIMH, Leadacid, etc cause who knows what they are at, would rather start at a known point. I have to agree that it most likely is this crappy charger that doesn't shut off correctly.

As for el cheapo, at the time if you look through sites for chargers, I don't see much for selection AT ALL. I actually was looking today at chargers. And the tenergy cells came with my Steripen Adventure, they seemed good, liked the protection idea and so went with some more. I saw the deal for the batteries plus flashlight and so said why not give it a try?! Well yeah I guess we see what happens. Probably have to see what these AW cells are about.

I am going out there tomorrow to drop off a flashing dog collar I made for Shadow, and so will go off and find those batteries. I am assuming them sitting outside around snow is bad right? Otherwise I can measure them, pop one in the charger and see what it terminates at before I toss those out. I'm assuming since the one got so hot and spewed it's guts out that the other ones aren't worth saving (which I wouldn't save otherwise, but don't want the dogs/cats finding and eating or chomping on.)

(BTW I do feel silly, but you live and learn. I've probably done more dangrous things with Propane powered potato guns and putzing around inside TV's, and Microwaves)

 

[kaidomain]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Sorry to hear this. I am glad that you and your dog is okay. From now on, NO MORE UNPROTECTED Li-ion cell in mutliple li-ion applications! The exploded battery probably has different discharge voltage, or have higher/lower resistance than others, which causing it to deeply discharge beyond the safety limit of 2.7V.

I just received your email and will give you a satisfied solution.

Kai

 

[DM51]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

From now on, NO MORE UNPROTECTED Li-ion cell in mutliple li-ion applications!

Very good decision.

Please consider withdrawing unprotected Li-Ions from sale altogether.

 

[Thujone]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Very good decision.

Please consider withdrawing unprotected Li-Ions from sale altogether.

I would just prefer a warning on unprotected cells.. I have several lights that handle the protection themselves and I am experienced with li-ion cells. The problem is people that aren't using them in devices that don't.

 

[twosouls2gether]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

Sorry to hear this. I am glad that you and your dog is okay. From now on, NO MORE UNPROTECTED Li-ion cell in mutliple li-ion applications! The exploded battery probably has different discharge voltage, or have higher/lower resistance than others, which causing it to deeply discharge beyond the safety limit of 2.7V.

I just received your email and will give you a satisfied solution.

Kai

Offered to send new tailcap and PROTECTED batteries. Have to say A+ for support! (I had to order another flashlight, this time a MX one with High and low. Just a lot of light for $40!). Time for work.

 

[Illum]

Re: Shooting deer with a flashlight

most PCB circuits are set to trip around 4.3+V, which is still way to high for long cycle life and is merely there to keep the cell safer, not to be used to terminate a proper charge, I have seen no evidence that the AW cell is set to 4.20V.

THANK YOU!
I've made the mistake of using the PCB as a marker to terminate a charge cycle and now I know not to:shakehead

as for the 4.2V~4.3V I am not sure of the actual value as I'm reading an analog DMM....I should have been more vague on such matters. apologies for those who may have read the wrong info, post edited