Weapon lights PART II... a more comprehensive study (user feedback appreciated)...

[FliGuyRyan]

First of all, a big thanks goes out to Patriot36, kilgor, Lightraven, BigD64, Stingrayl Evan III, madecov, jufam44, size15's, TXPeaceOfficer, Mercaptan, GBone, TOTC, steel0618, Xak, ValhallaPrime for their contributions to my thread found here ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2335865 ) entitled, "Any pistol lights (and light/laser) with a Cree, Rebel, or Seoul?"My last thread was focused on a pistol light/laser combo to which I've narrowed down to Surefire's X300 and Crimson Trace laser grip combo or a Streamlight TLR-2 light/laser unit.

In this thread, I want to get your opinions about rifles in general and any experiences that you may have had (or stories) concerning home defense. As I mentioned in my last thread, I plan to purchase Magpul's Masada coming out because of its versatility and quality (what looks to be) from a company who has seemed to have done their homework.

I would like a system with a light (for defense - again, should I go specific unit, or flashlight with a remote switch tailcap?), laser (for accuracy) and a shooting reticle like Trijicon's ACOG. All this would be combined with the Grip-Pod (fore-end grip that has a bi-pod deploy out the bottom) to have a system worthy of home defense (as last resort per se after the pistol) as well as shooting for sport/hobby and keeping up on my marksman skills for the Army's yearly qualification.

My problem is, since this is my first AR-like system, I don't know how the lights and laser all integrate together to form a team.

Please shed some light on your setup, setups you've seen, and setups you've experienced and what has helped you or has looked appealing.

Thanks,
RC

P.S. I would really like this to be an open discussion. So, if any of you have any questions related to this as well, please tag along...

 

[Evan III]

My .02 12 or 20 gauge pump shotgun. pistol grips are useless unless they are part of a stock. Lights are always good anything else is overkill and only complicates your weapon. use 6 or 7 1/2 bird shot and you don't have to worry about killing someone in the other room or even your neighbors.


If you want a s**t hits the fan and aliens invade gun, my .02 cents keep it simple, light, IR tac style scope, and rifle sling. The laser and grip pod and anything else to me is useless. The rifle sling will provide a steady platform for your shots and you won't need a laser if you have a scope. If you overcomplicate your weapon the fight will be over before you get all your devises turned on.

 

[angelofwar]

Ditto on the Shotgun...that should be your primary home defense weapon...If you NEED a scope/red-dot sight to shoot some-one, you're probably gonna go to jail. And rifles are too powerful to use in an occupied house. A BRIGHT light is the first recommendation...make sure you have a pressure senstiive switch as well, to "surprise" the perp...If it's a constant on switch, they'll know you're coming. Also, if you don't get a dedicated weaponlight, and decide to mount a handheld light, keep it aligned vertically with the weapon...I would only mount a "navigation" light horizontally. REMEMBER, whatever you decide, mount the "tape switch" in a place where you would naturally hold the weapon in a firing position, so you don't have to "find it" in a heated situation.

The shorter barrels (18") also give you an advantage to faster "turn times". You can swing 18"'s faster (bring it to bear) quicker than you can 23".

I also second the higher shot, 6 to 7-1/2...which will definitely incapacitate any would be intruder/villian. Spend the money on a good quality, bright light...at least 100 Lumens...The brighter it is, the harder it will be for the perp to react, or do anything else, besides keep his head turned...plus you get positive target ID. A simple laser, in conjuction with a light, isn't bad for faster target aquisition (multiple perps.)

My setup is a Remington 870-Marine Magnum (18.5") with a Surefire 918FA w/ MN11 Lamp Assy. (225 Lumens), with a mix of rabbit shot, and OO-Buck (for a perp on speed, or the like). Back-up is S & W .40 GVE with an Insight M-4 (80 Lumens). What ever you decide, remember quality...how much would you pay to protect your family? If it doesn't work when you need it, you're SOL.

 

[Mercaptan]

Aiyee? Trijicon ACOG in close quarters, a la home defense? With either 3.5x, 4x, or 6x Magnification that might be a bit much. A simple sighting device (reflex sight or red dot) would probably do better if you need assistance. Remember, this device requires you to turn it on. A rheostat you will need to operate under duress and in limited light conditions.

That is, unless you live on a farm, in which case I'd question if/why you had to engage 'badies' at greater than 100 yards.

Yeah... simplicity is good. A shotgun with ghost rings or simple rail sight and adjoined light will likely be better.

 

[FliGuyRyan]

Mercaptan,

Forgive me for being unclear. I would have the Trijicon for outdoor shooting when I am keeping up on marksmanship. Indoors, I would thus rely on the laser/light duo to protect the home. I have a six-shot, short-barreled shotgun of generic manufacturer (dependable though) that would suffice. But, I'd rather go with the pistol if I'm going to invest serious money into it.

I'm thinking Sig P250 with Lasermax integral laser (or LMS-UNI picatinny rail mount) and a Streamlight TLR-1 (upgraded with Seoul) or Surefire X300.

I've narrowed it down to those options... the Magpul Masada will come later and it it the reason I'm considering the LMS-UNI by Lasermax as I could use it on the rifle and pistol.

 

[ValhallaPrime]

I've got a SureFire X300 coming to my front door in about 14 hours or so...my neighborhood UPS guy rocks; I get deliveries maybe only 4-5 times a year, and just the few years of being here, he knows when I come home for lunch each day, and swings by with my packages then. So....I'm having weaponlight for lunch.

Anyway, tomorrow I'll have my X300....As long as it's not raining out, I can bring my DSLR out back and shoot a couple beamshot comparisons between the X300, and say my SF E2D, Fenix P1 original and my L2D-CE. I've got fresh batts, so it'll be a clean fight for all.

I've heard that more people are mounting the X300 on long guns than the previous X200a/B because of the beam brightness and quality....it's a bit cheaper solution to a full-blown SF weaponlight solution, for those on a bit of a budget.

 

[FliGuyRyan]

ValhallaPrime,

That would be awesome to see the X300 in a few beamshots. I have the L2D-CE as well and it will be a great site to see I imagine. Can't wait...

Thanks,
RC

 

[Masque]

To those of you advocating birdshot - birdshot, fellas - for home defense, you would be well advised to do your homework.

Unless your plans for home defense center around avian threats. I suppose, in that case, birdshot is perfect.

Read this: http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Remember this: Drywall is delicate. People less so. You want something that will magically penetrate humans but not drywall? See the site above for more thoughts on this.

Consider this: Loading birdshot for defense? Stick with pepper spray.

And remember rule four: Be sure of your target and what is beyond. If you're not in a location where you can responsibly and effectively use one force option, choose another. Another option, or another location. But don't get yourself killed banking on myths and supposition.

 

[Evan III]

Masque,

The site says it's the truth box, well it must be the truth then right? Why would he be using drywall (sheet rock) for a penetration test? Wouldn't balistic gel which is designed to represent soft tissue be a better test? Not to mention the 2 inch or so gap between the sheets of drywall will considerably hinder the velocity, and penetration. The initial hit on the first sheet of drywall will take the majority of the force. just like jumping off a bridge into water, it fells like concrete when you first hit it. As for a cop seeing a guy walking around after being shot with a shotgun, I've seen live footage of a guy taking 30 plus rounds from police duty weapons before droping. He was hyped up oh PCP at the time, but ya I guess anything is possible. Not to mention human vital organs are olny 2 or so inches from the surface, and your shooting at soft tissue. Either which way "Old Painless" No matter how many certificates this guy has his penetration tests are flawed.

As for home defense We are talking about close range and shooting at soft tissue. As for not going through drywall that's kind of the point, you don't want to kill someone sleeping in the next room. Bird shoot does not have the mass to go through hard objects and cause any damage on the other side. I've shot enough animals with bird shot(coyotes and other varmints) to attest to the fact that bird shot will penetrate enough to kill someone. And animals are soft tissue not drywall. If you don't think drywall is hard, put a coupla sheets together and punch it, One sheet is not bad, 2 or more is pretty hard!

Maybe more homework needs to be done. Look for some picture of shotgun wounds, I don't think I'll post any here.

 

[angelofwar]

The author of the boxoftruth has some nice opinions...too bad they're his! I tend to agree with Evan III, having found birdshot "exit wounds" on some of the game I've killed...and there organs are pretty chopped up...I did want too mention turkey shot, with more powder, and slightly larger pellets...but, the 225 Lumen light is the real "defense"...giving you that extra precious 2-seconds, and what this article (primarily) is about.

 

[Evan III]

Here is a wound path taken from a doctor, Notice even the extremely lightweight wad has penetrated more then 10 cm. You want the real thing search images.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/12 Gauge No 4 Buckshot.jpg

Angel of war,
I've seen coyotes destroyed 40 yards out with this stuff. I keep some 3 inch mag copper plated stuff in the side saddle on my shotgun, Just in case.

 

[ValhallaPrime]

ValhallaPrime,

That would be awesome to see the X300 in a few beamshots. I have the L2D-CE as well and it will be a great site to see I imagine. Can't wait...

Thanks,
RC

Got the light, but it was pouring here tonite, stupid 38 degrees and heavy rain.....so no outside shots.

Initial thoughts.....beam is MUCH tighter than I expected, much greater "thrower" than anything I have, except for a MagLed focused way tight (which then is all artifacts and ringy). Though it has a larger, much weaker than normal sidespill, it still is plenty enough to navigate with. I'd say it's hotspot at 15 yds is 1/2 to 1/3 that of the L2d-CE...but it's white-hot. Mounted it on the HK45 for a few minutes and walked around the dark basement with it. Yeah, the X300 "makes sense" for a pitch dark environ.

I'm gonna take it to the range tomorrow to see how the few extra ounces on the end of the barrel affects recoil and barrel-jump on doubletaps.

On a funny note, I accidentally flashed a woman at work playing with just the light in the halls...in indoor-lighted hallways. She got pissed...was blinded for about 10 seconds: these were eyes already adjusted to indoor corporate lighting.

FliGuyRyan, I'll shoot some daylight macro's with the light mounted on the HK45 tomorrow, as well as some night exposures with my other lights, weather permitting. I'll try to get it down and post before midnight EST.

 

[ValhallaPrime]

Didn't get out last weekend to do the beamshots; it was raining and windy as heck both nights.....I'll try tomorrow night, hopefully I'll not be too tired after a long day at work.

Here's some 100mm macro gunporn pix to keep you satisfied until then.

Also....range report with the light. I DID shoot 100rnds of UMC Ball through it that rainy Saturday night. Contrary to what I had heard, the lens glass in the front became -extremely- filthy, and probably was letting only maybe 30% of the light through after the 2 boxes sent through it.

So just remember, if you're fighting the zombies off, try to wipe your weaponlight every 2-3 clips if you can.

 

[sed6]

Most will agree that a rifle is less than ideal for home defense for reasons of penetration and size. A shotty or pistol is a much better choice. A pistol is my go to gun for when things go bump in the night. That said, here's a pic of my AR with a TLR-1. The light was recently modified by CPF member CM and is now twice as bright as factory!