what makes flashlight LI-ion so frail?

Bushman5

Enlightened
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Sep 8, 2007
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977
How come I can run down my cell phon Li-ion battery over and over, down to nothing, leave it for days in end in a discharged state, and then recharge it no problem (no explosions or fires)

yet with RCR 123s and other li-ion batts, we cannot run them down the same way without risking a boom or fire?

:shrug:
 
Cell Phones must have a protection circuit built in like AWs protected Li-Ions is my guess. They actually arent as frail as might appear . Though there are very informative and good threads here on CPF about batteries and they should be read by ALL, it may seem that they are more fragile than other battery powered devices. But if that was the case we would have many many threads on here of everyone experiencing constant battery failures which isnt the case. I have never had a Li-Ion RCr fail me yet (knock on wood). I dont think if you left an AW protected Li-ion in a discharge state for a few days and then popped it on the charger it will explode. If they exploded that easily we would have alot of injured poeple on CPF!! But they can be dangerous and caution must be taken. staying away from cheap cells of quetionable origin is a good practice and keeping them charged is a good practice especially to extend the life of the battery . But if you "abuse" the battery by discharging and leaving for a few days , I wouldnt worry or be afraid of it . This is just my opinion of course, I am not an expert. Please read as much about Li-Ions as you can here at CPF

It's funny, my son recently got a new cell phone. The gal at the store told him to always run the battery down to dead before charging. I told him this is misinformation. I have always been under the impression with cell phones, the first time you charge it run up a full charge. Then top it off when convenient because these cells like flashlight cells Li-ion , like to be topped off not drained completely. Also , the practice she told him to do will eventually lead to a dead cell phone when he needs it most . It doesnt make sense but he is arguing with me (go figure, a kid arguing with an adult!!)

I bet if you searched other places you would find many complaints of cell phone/lap top battery failure problems. I have had a cpl cell phones where the battery started failing to hold a good charge after 1 year of use. that is pretty bad in my book. The phone I have now is only a year old and I have to charge that battery every day and it still poops out with very little use.
 
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interesting about the circuit...

ther phone is 4 years old and pretty much has never been regularly topped up. its alway run to nothing, left for days and then charged. Holds a charge for several days of use (Telus MIKE radio)
 
For one, most cell phones will not let you run the battery down very far at all. Their voltage cutoff for draining is extremely high, and they actually have a software block programed in which means you cannot access a large percentage of your actual battery life.

So in reality, you are doing a very shallow discharge/charge on them. I have seen a few phones where you could disable this part of the programming to gain full access to the entire battery capacity, but as you might expect it takes a little self control and due diligence to make sure you don't kill it with misuse.
 
That makes sense on the cell phones. They have to be overly cautious with the general public. Having phones explode in pockets and against heads would not be good for business.

I am thinking with flashlights there is an added risk because of how hard some lights push the cells being used to get all that light out the front. With large amounts of heat and huge fast drains on the cells this must increase the risks of failure? Running cells in tandem is fraught with risk as well so I stick to single cell lights for RCR usage. So like everything else due diligence and respect is paramount .
 
For one, most cell phones will not let you run the battery down very far at all. Their voltage cutoff for draining is extremely high, and they actually have a software block programed in which means you cannot access a large percentage of your actual battery life.
just like PDAs , the cutoff is VERY high, leaving ample battery to maintain the ram, which makes me wonder about WM6 devices that dont use the RAM and instead flash memory? would they NEED to reserve so much of the power as they can truely shut off without a reset?

PLUS most all of this stuff has protection ON any removable battery, and IN on any internal battery.
 
It's funny, my son recently got a new cell phone. The gal at the store told him to always run the battery down to dead before charging. I told him this is misinformation. I have always been under the impression with cell phones, the first time you charge it run up a full charge. Then top it off when convenient because these cells like flashlight cells Li-ion , like to be topped off not drained completely. Also , the practice she told him to do will eventually lead to a dead cell phone when he needs it most . It doesnt make sense but he is arguing with me (go figure, a kid arguing with an adult!!)

there is a BALANCE here, the batteries DO get weak at the low end and cut-off early if they are never conditioned on the low end.
there is no reason to and it is harmfull to do this continually, BUT when you first get a "li-ion" aka phone, the battery has been parked, and one full loop around WILL (i said it) improve your total run time before cutoff by a large ammount.
AND
after many shallow uses and months on end, the low end again becomes weakened , and less usefull.

the phones arent even (nessiarily) capable of conditioning the battery, and so therfore , batts are replaced much faster than nesssisary because the battery is not treated right.
its all about the balance, neither direct outright statement of to do , or not to do can be made, its highly dependant on what the battery has been through, and what it is going through.

most of my devices are running on thier FIRST still and i am less tied to a cord than others. and my phone is always on like a landline day and night
get your DMM out and read it.
 
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My Nokia N810 shuts itself down at at 3.5V. The clock remains powered so that it doesn't lose track of time. There's another threshold at 3.2V, I imagine it gives up on keeping time at that point, and will refuse to even switch on to inform you that battery is low.
 
In addition, you have consider that cell-phone batteries dont suffer from high (dis)charge currents and serial connections (with potential reverse charging).

If i would have to make a guess, i'd say that >95% of all problems with Li-ions reported here fall into one of these 3 slots. Especially accidential shorts (an extreme form of discharge :) )
 
I bet you are right IMSabbel.


Good insight on battery maintenance Vidpro. Though Li-Ion arent supposed to imprint it probably does happen to some extent?

During my normal usage of cell phones and flashlights, the rechargeable Li-Ions get the full range of usage from month tho month. Occasionally I will use up a full charge on the flashlight and sometimes I forget to charge the phone and it goes down to the point of emitting the low battery warning signal and occasionally shutting down completley while in use (maybe 2-3 times a year) though I try to maintain a personal policy of keeping them "topped off " as often as time/memory allow.

And yet those cell phone batteries just dont seem to hang in there like AW flashlight cells do but thats apples and oranges to some degree.
 
I bet you are right IMSabbel.

Good insight on battery maintenance Vidpro. Though Li-Ion arent supposed to imprint it probably does happen to some extent?

During my normal usage of cell phones and flashlights, the rechargeable Li-Ions get the full range of usage from month tho month. .

and through normal usage , things usually work out just fine, as you indicated, after all the battery was probably designed with "normal" usage in mind. they dont work well at the top of MtEverest, because you cant get a signal there anyways :D
 
On some smart phones and also laptops an initial discharge is good because there is a monitor that remembers how long your runtime was til dead battery and can predict runtime on the battery based on the discharge. So every now and then it's good to let that circuit reset itself so you get a realistic reading on the battery.
 
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