Where are the Low Self Discharge "C" & "D" size cells?

[Cydonia]

I dream of Sanyo Eneloops in C and D size. Will it ever happen? Alas, I don't think the demand is great enough to warrant their production.

So does it have to be LSD (Low Self Discharge) AA's in plastic tube spacers and adaptors forever? :mecry:

= = = =

OK fine, I'll accept regular NiMh then... :scowl:

I scoured and searched these forums, and the amondotech site... Titanium NiMh are the highest quality available? 6000mah C and 12000mah D are the "best" quality and capacity available right? Just to confirm these are really top notch? Any Sanyo NiMh that are higher grade?


OK, and what about a dedicated C or D size charger... does not exist? I don't want one of these ugly looking "universal" chargers like this Titanium Universal Battery Charger. Ugh... :green: I'm not into silver colored plastic big clunky looking chargers.

Ideally, I would like a small compact charger that can charge 2 C's or D's only. No such thing? Amondotech says they have the biggest selection of chargers online :thinking: So that's it? I love the compact Sanyo AA Eneloop chargers:

Can't you imagine this slightly scaled up for 2 C cells?

 

[Rommul]

I second the need for eneloop type low discharge cells in C and D sizes.

 

[Martini]

Considering the fact that energizer sees it fit to make 2500mAh C and D cells (the same capacity as their AAs), Sanyo isn't exactly behind the curve. Rayovac's larger cells are similarly stuck at 2200mAh. I don't think I've even seen Duracell offer C or D size NiMHs. Obviously, demand is low, and consumers aren't particularly demanding of the existing products, either.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Cydonia,

Check out the Titanium TG-3000. It may be the charger you are looking for.

Tom

 

[Cydonia]

Hello Cydonia,

Check out the Titanium TG-3000. It may be the charger you are looking for.

Tom

Yup that's really close to what I was looking for!
I must have scrolled right past it and thought it was for AA / AAA only
Thanks for the heads up and model # to look at!

= = = =

So otherwise these Titanium NiMh C's and D's are pretty much the best out there? Guess I'll be placing my first order at amondotech soon...

 

[frogs3]

I second Cydonia's ideas: I just got a 3C protected LiION FM85 from Fivemega. The simplicity of the smaller number of batteries and their greater capacity vs. a 9AA/3D adapter using multiple Eneloops to avoid the self-discharge of regular NiMH's is obvious to me. Less weight, internal resistance and more runtime. Equal torchlumens, at least to my eyes.

I would love to have a simple 3D hotwire, or even a 4D model, without the complexity of internal boring to take 12 or 15 or more AA's, using the NiMH's chemistry. No need for internal protection, higher capacity.

All those off the shelf C and D lights suggest to me that the market share is not so small.

Just my $0.02.

-HAK

 

[lctorana]

My solution to this problem is a bit old-fashioned, but effective.

I have a whole bunch of very high capacity (4000 & 4500 mAh) NiCd.

Yes, NiCADs.

Look after them, and they look after you. Still available if you shop around.

 

[barkingmad]

My solution to this problem is a bit old-fashioned, but effective.

I have a whole bunch of very high capacity (4000 & 4500 mAh) NiCd.

Yes, NiCADs.

Look after them, and they look after you. Still available if you shop around.

Why bother with NiCD when NiMH are available in D size up to 12000mah?

 

[barkingmad]

Considering the fact that energizer sees it fit to make 2500mAh C and D cells (the same capacity as their AAs), Sanyo isn't exactly behind the curve. Rayovac's larger cells are similarly stuck at 2200mAh. I don't think I've even seen Duracell offer C or D size NiMHs. Obviously, demand is low, and consumers aren't particularly demanding of the existing products, either.

These 2500mah C and D cells are usually nothing more than an AA cell in a C or D 'body'.

 

[Bones]

These 2500mah C and D cells are usually nothing more than an AA cell in a C or D 'body'.

Perhaps it's time for the flashlight manufacturers to recognize the market dominance of the AA NiMH cell, especially with the emergence of the low-self-discharge technology.

I kinda like the idea of a high capacity light designed from scratch by one of the top brands to take AA cells.

They could certainly design it with at least three side by side tubes for AA cells without exceeding the current diameter of a D cell light.

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear what others think the advantages (if any) would be.

 

[lctorana]

Why bother with NiCD when NiMH are available in D size up to 12000mah?

2 reasons.

1) The "low self-discharge", which is the topic of this thread.
2) I have these batteries.

 

[PhotonAddict]

Cydonia, I asked Amondotech about Low Self Discharge "C" & "D" size cells when the LSD Titanium AAs were released and he did confirm that it was a matter of demand. Barring a large government contact, it's appears unlikely we will see these anytime soon. Pity.

Sorry about hijacking this thread a bit, but does the Titanium TG-3000 have independant channels?
edit: Oops, never mind. Just re-read the description - "Charge one or two AA, AAA, etc..." so I guess they are independant channels.

 

[barkingmad]

2 reasons.

1) The "low self-discharge", which is the topic of this thread.
2) I have these batteries.

I am fairly surprised manufacturers are still even making NiCd consumer cells - typically lower capacity / lower energy density, memory effect, Cadmium being very toxic...

 

[big beam]

I am fairly surprised manufacturers are still even making NiCd consumer cells - typically lower capacity / lower energy density, memory effect, Cadmium being very toxic...

I use amondotechs C cell 3500 ni-cd's in one of my lights.After 1 mo. of sitting they are at 1.31V.They last a lot longer(years) of use,you can recycle them and they seem to discharge slower than any of my ni-mh's.( sans eneloop)I also have some of amondotechs 7000 d cells but they are in an emergency light and are at a slow charge all the time(try that with ni-mh).There is still a place for ni-cd's.
DON

Oh I forgot memory effect.I think I read that it is not a reality.One more thing,if the cells get unballanced you just slowly charge them in a dumb(old) charger.Ni-cd's are very robust cells!

 

[radellaf]

Why bother with NiCD when NiMH are available in D size up to 12000mah?

Well, NiCd might be cheaper, and like has been said elsewhere, will probably last 5+ years since they tolerate non-use and reverse or over-charging better, and have a lower self-discharge. Memory effect, sure, but I have a charger that can cycle them well enough.

Also, looking at that Titanium TG-3000 charger mentioned earlier, looks like it has a 900mA max current which is not enough for a 12Ah cell. Probably would charge in 24 hours but not ideal, and since Amondo doesn't specifically mention what the timer cut-off is, I'd want to check into that (anyone here have it with those Ds?)

 

[Sub_Umbra]

What lctorana said. I'm another who has C and D cells in NiCad. I use them all the time. My problem is that NiCad will eventually be legislated out of existance. I've already made the switch to Eneloops in AAA and AA and I'm very happy with them for those form factors. I'll definately be stocking up on C and D NiCads when it looks like the hammer is coming down on them if there are still no low discharge cells available to replace them with at that time..

 

[LukeA]

Perhaps it's time for the flashlight manufacturers to recognize the market dominance of the AA NiMH cell, especially with the emergence of the low-self-discharge technology.

I kinda like the idea of a high capacity light designed from scratch by one of the top brands to take AA cells.

They could certainly design it with at least three side by side tubes for AA cells without exceeding the current diameter of a D cell light.

Anyway, it would be interesting to hear what others think the advantages (if any) would be.

You would need a carrier. That really isn't a disadvantage, though.

 

[big beam]

What lctorana said. I'm another who has C and D cells in NiCad. I use them all the time. My problem is that NiCad will eventually be legislated out of existance. I've already made the switch to Eneloops in AAA and AA and I'm very happy with them for those form factors. I'll definately be stocking up on C and D NiCads when it looks like the hammer is coming down on them if there are still no low discharge cells available to replace them with at that time..

I think it will be a long time before ni-cds are legislated out of existance, the manufactures I'm sure would lobby against it .After all lead acid is toxic also but they're still around and I think will be for the future.That being said I would welcome LSD C and D cells in ni-mh.
DON

 

[lctorana]

Good discussion.

To summarize this thread:

1) Standard NiMH has high self-discharge, and there is some anecdotal evidence that the higher the capacity, the worse this gets.

2) NiCds have usably lower self-discharge than NiMHs, but nowhere near Eneloops.

3) Sanyo are not having their door beaten down to manufacture Eneloops larger than AA size, so bigger Eneloops may not appear in the short term.

4) NiCds are losing popularity, and availability is reducing. There is some suggestion they might be legislated out of existence one day.

5) You need an appropriate charger to charge NiCds (there's a shock).

6) There are "parallel" 3xAA battery carriers available. If you need low-self-discharge right now, it's either this or NiCd.


Hope this helps.

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Ictorana,

You are very close...

NiCd cells had a lower self discharge rate than the first NiMh cells that were introduced. Since that time, NiMh cells have improved. Modern healthy NiMh cells actually have a slightly lower self discharge rate than NiCd cells. As NiMh cells age, their self discharge rate increases to about the same as NiCd cells.

NiMh cells have more capacity than NiCd cells, so even when the self discharge rate increases it is not as drastic a hit as it is with NiCd cells.

A major difference between NiCd and NiMh cells is that when you totally abuse NiCd cells, they usually recover and continue to work like new. When you abuse NiMh cells, they have problems.

NiCd cells seem to be able to handle anything that is thrown their way, but you have to take care with NiMh cells.

Please note that this refers to normal NiMh cells. The Eneloop cells are different.

Tom