Why 123s?

[soloco]

This has been bugging me for a little while. Why are 123 batteries supposed to be so good? I always assumed that it's because they are lithium, so the discharge voltage is pretty constant under load and they have a 10 year shelf life. Is this right? Sure, SF made using 123s popular, but why does everyone else insist on using them? Wouldn't Lithium AAs (Energizer) be just as good and maybe even better? They seem to have all the benefits and have a greater capacity for the volume that they take up. Anyone have a good answer? Someone please educate me!

 

[Xrunner]

For me it's a combo of all of the above. I especially like the lights that run them (brighter due to the 3v over 1.5 of AA's) and the properties of the battery itself. I'm not sure if this really answered anything but I figure it was worth a shot. I would like to know what others think.

-Mike

 

[monanza]

I can cite a couple of reasons for you:

1. 123 batteries have a nominal voltage of 3V. This means that for the same current they deliver twice as much power as an alkaline AA and about 83% more than lithium AA.
2. They have high discharge capability. They deliver significantly higher current than alkaline AA and up to twice that of lithium AA (1.5-2.5A vs 1.3A).
3. 123 flashlights will be slightly thicker but significantly shorter than AA lights. For reflectored lights this makes for a more balanced light (of course this is arguable).

There are probably many other reasons but I can't think of them right now.

Cheers.

 

[Rothrandir]

small, powerfull, flatter discharge curve, more resistant to cold, higher current drain...

 

[Monsters_Inc]

I would expect some bright spark in the not so distant future would design a light around CR2s - slightly smaller than 123s, same voltage, same shelf life & everything else.

 

[Empath]

There is no competition in the AA lithium market. As a result, they're more expensive, and you would be locking your product into a proprietary 'one-brand' requirement.

 

[PieThatCorner]

[ QUOTE ]
Onyx said:
I would expect some bright spark in the not so distant future would design a light around CR2s - slightly smaller than 123s, same voltage, same shelf life & everything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that exact same thing... I just changed out a pair of A2's (CR2's) in my Nikon and you're right - same 3V, and quite smaller. I can think of a lot of flashlight applications for this size battery. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Deleted member 684]

Fumbling around with Energizer's PDFs, acording to them, their 123s are rated at 1300mah @ 100ohms @ 21 degrees celsius. That would mean a 30ma discharge rate. I don't know how well it scales with increasing loads, but they must have rated it in a way that best shows the capcity of their 123. Whereas their AA lithium has a capcity of 2900mah @ a 200ma discharge rate discharging all the way to 1 volt. Also the 123 cell is rated at 1.5 amps continous, 3.5 amps pulsed. Whereas the AA Lithim is rated at a 2.0 amps continous. I should think that the AA can handle high current draw better than the 123, but of cos that is off setted with it's lower 1.5 volts rating. Taking the value of the 123 pulsed current, we can pulse the AA lithium at 4.6 amps. Sounds great for some freakish super high current draw high lumens output torch. Since 123s are fatter, if placed side by side in parallel configuration it's much too fat. AAs on the other hand aren't so fat and fit nicely (at least in my hands)

My point is that the 123 is good at what it does, but the AA lithium shouldn't be overlooked either. If they made a 3 volts one at half the capacity, it would be a 1450mah model and I would take that any time over 123s because at least it's rated at a higher constant current draw (200ma instead of 30ma of the 123)

I appologize if I've made any mistakes anywhere in this post. Someone pls correct me if there's anything wrong.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[soloco]

Nerd~ I read the same pdf's at data.energizer.com. That's what brought this stuff up. It seems to me the AA Lithium is equal to or better than 123s in terms of power and flatter discharge curve. The size and voltage aren't really a problem for me, as long as that D-to-3AA adapter ever gets made (hint hint, Wayne). With an adapter, I should be able to essentially get a lithium D cell for my flashlights with great power and runtime or 4.5V. The price is pretty good too. I see 4-packs for about $10 all over the place. The surefire 123s are dirt cheap, but on average 123s can get up to $2.50 a pop. If energizer is the only one out there making these then the price is bound to drop as competition increases too. I'm dying to try 6 lithium AA's in series in a 2D mag with one of those badass inretech drop-ins. Thanks for the comments everyone.

Alooooha

 

[StoneDog]

There are 3v Lithiums in a AA size but you have to cannabilize a certain type of Energizer digital camera battery. They're not cheap and you have to find the ones made in Japan, not Mexico or the US, but they do exist. Search either this forum or the mods forum for more into.

Jon

 

[kakster]

they are also sold individually here :

http://eurobatteries.com/sitepages/lithcambat.asp

5th one down, £3.39 each

 

[Blikbok]

Nerd and Soloco:

Are you talking about 3v lithiums in AA form factor, or the 1.5v ones? I'd think that using the 123 would avoid the possibility of someone sticking a 3v AA in a 1.5v's place.

 

[soloco]

Blikbok~
I'm talkin bout the 1.5V lithium AA that Energizer makes. It is their L91.
http://data.energizer.com/datasheets/library/primary/lithium/l91.pdf

 

[Deleted member 684]

StoneDog: The type of battery you are talking about is s'pose to be a CRV-3 (Not CVR-3) Someone did canibalize it and say that it's 3 volts each, and made in Japan. Surprisingly it doesn't do too well under high loads.

Constant power of 1000 milli watts, it would last 206 mins
Constant power of 2000 milli watts, it would last 61 mins

Theoretical of 103 mins from 2000 milli watts power draw seems to be nearly halved as the power load goes up. But they are listing this as the one for those packaged in series to provide 3v total. Means each cell can handle 200 milli watts not so comfortably.

Those made in japan ones (3v each inside in parallel configuration) ought to handle higher loads better because of the distribution of the power equally among 2 cells. I'm hazarding a guess of 3000 milli watts comfortable, 4000 milli watts not so comfortably. Who wants to do an experiment to try? The shop near my house sell those made in japan for $15 SGD, that's $8.50 USD. Expensive by my standards. Therefore I'll not dwell into testing them in a BB500.

Would any one thing that those made in japan are using similar technology as those 123s?

Once again, any mistakes pls correct me. Thanks!

 

[monanza]

Thanks Nerd, soloco. You are absolutely right in that the L91 is a great battery for flashlight (and other high drain) applications. The 123 has advantages and so does the L91. The L91 seems to have better delivery efficiency based on its lower nominal impedance. For the highest energy density flashlights (brightness to size ratio) the 123 is the way to go but as you say the L91 should not be discounted.

A note on maximum continuous load: The 123 datasheet reports 1.5A but they can actually deliver more than 2.5A without thermal shutdown. Anyone know how the specs are determined? I have an L91 application note from energizer that quotes 1.3A maximum continuous load (the datasheet quotes 2.0A - thanks Nerd). Anyone know if one can get better than 2A from an L91 in practice?

Cheers.

 

[Deleted member 684]

I used to get around 5 amps from a Nimh 1600 Sanyo, so actually the specs are not for maximum current draw. Needless to say, voltage sag to 1.1+ volts.... And it's a fully charged battery... fresh off the charger...

 

[soloco]

Those are some great comments everyone. I have the feeling that lithium AAs (and other standard size cells; I can't wait until there is a true lithium D cell!) is the way to go. I'm going to try and slap together a 3AA adapter for all my D based flashlights, like Lightwave 4000, 3D Mags, and such. I wish there WAS some competition, then the price would probably go down. In the mean time, anyone know where the cheapest place to get the Energizer L91 is?

 

[Deleted member 684]

www.cheapbatteries.com

http://www.cheapbatteries.com/photo.htm

Scroll down and you'll see "EVEREADY LITHIUM BATTERIES" $2 USD each if you get at least 48, if you get only 4<47, you'll have a price of $2.50 USD.

 

[Brock]

I can't find them, but they don't ahve the clearest site to follow.

Has anyone bought these? Are they really 1/5v and lithium with about 18,000mA? Imagine 3 of these in a Trek, it would last forever and stay really bright.

 

[soloco]

18,000mA? Is that current? Or did you mean mAh, as in capacity?