Xenons Forever -- LEDs Disappoint!

[Cyrenaican]

Not sure where to post this, as I am a "Newbie", so I will try Incandescents first!

I am a retiree living on Social Security. I want good flashlights, but I am
unable to pay $60 for a Fenix, $150 for a SureFire, etc. I need flashlights
that are inexpensive, same as most non-"Flashaholics" in the U.S.A. WalMart
is now selling Rayovac "Sportsman Extreme" flashlights using 1W and 3W Luxeon
LEDs. The 3W is obviously a "re-branded" Nuwai X-3.

I got one for $25 and returned it for credit in only 1/2 hour! It gave VERY
blue light, not just "tinted". Its "80 lumens" were destroyed by my current
EDC light, a 41-lumen PrincetonTec "Rage". Its tailswitch had no O-ring to
keep water out. And it was easily scratched by its blisterpack, as I got it
ready for return. My most disappointing purchase in years, in any category.
I did send a "Not Good" E-Mail to Rayovac.

My area has a good "independent" hardware store, with nearly 100 flashlights,
including demo units. So, I then went there and tested my 5-year-old "Rage"
versus all their "new" 1W and 3W LED demo flashlights. Absolutely every one
below about $75 FAILED to beat my old "Rage", in total output, or in "throw"!

I have no "light box", lumen meter or fancy test equipment, just my eyeballs.
They tell me "So WHAT?", if flashlights lose output as alkaline batteries run
low. With Xenon bulbs, my 4-D lanterns, 3-D car flashlight, and "Rage" lose
FUNCTIONALITY maybe about 5 minutes before they finally go out. Until then,
they still offer "throw" and good corona. Xenon bulbs in normal flashlights
should leave most users very happy. Sad, how vendors omit them due to cost.

As in Baseball, "That will be ALL!" for me and LED flashlights. Watching 15
newfangled demo units (mostly Luxeons) fall on their NOSES v.s. my old "Rage"
was enough. How much LIGHT a flashlight provides is what counts, and an LED
flashlight "Ain't it"! Thank God for our good "independent" hardware store,
which helped me save a LOT of money and time!

 

[mdocod]

go down to lowes and look for the 2C TaskForce 3W LED that has "60X" brighter on the package. (not the one that says 30X brighter). Some lowes have the new version some don't so best of luck on that one... but if you can find the 60X brighter version, it has a newer generation LED than the rayovac that disappointed you. The new Cree LEDs have more pleasant tints, better overall color output, and about double the efficiency. The task Force uses a lens focusing system that throws and throws. For $30 I'm sure you will be impressed.

And yes, it will be brighter than your rage

oh yea... jeez, where's my manners:
WELCOME TO CPF!!!!!
:welcome::welcome:

 

[Fusion_m8]

Glad to know how you feel about LEDs mate, but I'd love to see how many batteries the incandescent flashlight will use up during a 6hour power failure.

Some LED lights may not be as bright as incandescents, but they have their purpose during extended usage, which NO incandescent light can compare...

Its horses for courses champ!

Not sure where to post this, as I am a "Newbie", so I will try Incandescents first!

I am a retiree living on Social Security. I want good flashlights, but I am
unable to pay $60 for a Fenix, $150 for a SureFire, etc. I need flashlights
that are inexpensive, same as most non-"Flashaholics" in the U.S.A. WalMart
is now selling Rayovac "Sportsman Extreme" flashlights using 1W and 3W Luxeon
LEDs. The 3W is obviously a "re-branded" Nuwai X-3.

I got one for $25 and returned it for credit in only 1/2 hour! It gave VERY
blue light, not just "tinted". Its "80 lumens" were destroyed by my current
EDC light, a 41-lumen PrincetonTec "Rage". Its tailswitch had no O-ring to
keep water out. And it was easily scratched by its blisterpack, as I got it
ready for return. My most disappointing purchase in years, in any category.
I did send a "Not Good" E-Mail to Rayovac.

My area has a good "independent" hardware store, with nearly 100 flashlights,
including demo units. So, I then went there and tested my 5-year-old "Rage"
versus all their "new" 1W and 3W LED demo flashlights. Absolutely every one
below about $75 FAILED to beat my old "Rage", in total output, or in "throw"!

I have no "light box", lumen meter or fancy test equipment, just my eyeballs.
They tell me "So WHAT?", if flashlights lose output as alkaline batteries run
low. With Xenon bulbs, my 4-D lanterns, 3-D car flashlight, and "Rage" lose
FUNCTIONALITY maybe about 5 minutes before they finally go out. Until then,
they still offer "throw" and good corona. Xenon bulbs in normal flashlights
should leave most users very happy. Sad, how vendors omit them due to cost.

As in Baseball, "That will be ALL!" for me and LED flashlights. Watching 15
newfangled demo units (mostly Luxeons) fall on their NOSES v.s. my old "Rage"
was enough. How much LIGHT a flashlight provides is what counts, and an LED
flashlight "Ain't it"! Thank God for our good "independent" hardware store,
which helped me save a LOT of money and time!

 

[Cyrenaican]

Thank you, MDOCOD, for your comments about the Lowe's 2C flashlight. But I already
have three 4-D lanterns (two loaded, one in reserve) in my home, along with a 3-D flash-
light in my car. Being retired, I cannot afford more. And to FUSION_M8 in Melbourne,
I would use the larger flashlights, not the "Rage", for a power-failure. They all have Mag
Xenon bulbs, drawing 820ma for the 3-D and 790 for the 4-Ds, as per Carley Lights' site
for those bulbs. U.S. D-cells were rated 18 amp-hours until 2 years ago and are now
about 20.7 amp-hours, per Eveready specs. I use Rayovac batteries, since they cost
less and are essentially the same (those guys are pretty incestuous and "steal" each
others' technology all the time). When I last "burned down" a set of D-cells, I got 12
hours' run time, so the newer cells should run about 14 hours. Thus, a power-failure
would cost me 1/2 a set of D-cell batteries, not-bad. With 2 loaded lanterns, 3 extra
sets of batteries, and my car 3-D flashlight, that ought to be enough! Our California
Governor, "Conan the Republican" [Arnold Schwarzenegger], has pretty-much cleared
up the Enron mess, and we have had few "mismanagement" power failures thereafter!

 

[mdocod]

The 18+AH rating only happens at very low discharge rates. At ~0.8A a D cell will deliver only about 6-8AH capacity. Most of the power is delivered below the ideal voltage range for the bulb to operate efficiently. (that's why alkaline powered incans are BRIGHT for a few minutes at first, followed by hours upon hours of dimming orange glow). Through most of the run you are getting ~10 lumens per watt or less.

You have obviously experienced some bad LED lights or you are comparing unfairly. In the low powered long runtime arena, LED wins hands down and no incan man from this part of the forum can refute that. (I'm one of those "incan guys" around here BTW, but I'm not going to deny truth).

A 4D powered light with a cree LED running at low output (say around 100mA to the LED) would deliver about 30 lumens continuously regulated, (about half what your 4D lantern puts out on fresh cells, but more than it puts out for 90% of it's runtime) for about a week before running out of juice. Since the Vbatt would hold above the Vf of the LED through most of the run the output would remain steady with a decent buck regulator.

 

[MikeSalt]

I would agree with you to a large extent, apart from the fact that I would reword it to be "Xenons forever, most LEDs disappoint". The high-end Crees, with good tints are more than acceptable. This is also true of SSC P4s and Rebels (when Luxeon can actually produce batches consistently).

But, the light I would not go into the wilderness without is my Xenon-powered Maglite 2D Roar-of-the-Pelican. No LED flashlight reaches out and touches me the way that thing does. Walking at night, it can easily illuminate a gate from the other end of a field, and with excellent clarity.

 

[Cyrenaican]

Actually, 790 or 820 ma times 14 hours with newer D-cells works out to a total of about
12.6 watt-hours delivered to the Xenon bulb. Alkaline battery vendors have made great
strides in their high-current capabilities. Though I agree with you, that a "lumen meter"
measurement may show a low value, my own eyeballs find my 4-D lanterns and 3-D car
flashlight as still being useful, up to within about 5 minutes of going out. And though I
also agree that vacuum/argon/krypton bulbs will "yellow out", Maglite Xenon bulbs don't
appear to "yellow", again not until just before they go out. "Works for me", as we say,
and I will keep all of them!

 

[Cyrenaican]

Mike, if you like Maglites, go to <www.carleylamps.com> and note the ratings for their
Xenon bulbs. Carley is "across town" in Los Angeles from Mag, and their bulbs look
quite similar, so without being told, I am certain Carley makes Mag's bulbs. Unsure
what bulb your Mag 2-D uses, but if it is the "stock" "MagNum Star" Xenon bulb, note
that Carley rates it 1.8 "spherical candle power", times 4-pi for about 25 lumens. So,
imagine me using a 54-lumen 3-D car flashlight, and using my 85-lumen 4-D lanterns.
If your 2-D Mag is a "barn burner", a 3-D Mag or a 4-D lantern ought to be Hades on
Earth for you!

 

[Cyrenaican]

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[Cyrenaican]

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[Cyrenaican]

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[Cyrenaican]

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[MikeLip]

You are assuming that the voltage remains constant. It's not. Alkaline voltage starts dropping the second it sees a load and drops over the life of the cell. So does lithium, but the drop is not as steep for the same load. Lithiums have a much lower internal resistance which keeps their terminal voltage up much better than alkalines.

 

[mdocod]

you're not driving the bulb at 790-820ma towards the end of the discharge, those current ratings on the bulb only occur at a particular input voltage, when you drop below that voltage, the current drops as well. An under-driven xenon bulb will drop to a lower color temperature and loose efficiency just like any other tungsten filament bulb. The xenon simply increases the density of the surrounding gases within the envelope which helps keep tungsten from evaporating away from filament. It does very little if anything to improve white point or efficiency.

 

[mdocod]

cyrenaican:

The flashlight that MikeSalt was talking about is WAY brighter than any standard 3 or 4D mag. He is running 6 high current capable NIMH cells in a 2D host and a 24W xenon bulb overdriven to the tune of about a thousand bulb lumens and nearly 30W. Runtime may be short, but there is no stock maglight on any shelf anywhere that compares.

(btw he's not the only one: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=181106 ) lots of us have built "ROPs"

you should too


you'll like it!!!

 

[MikeLip]

cyrenaican:

The flashlight that MikeSalt was talking about is WAY brighter than any standard 3 or 4D mag. He is running 6 high current capable NIMH cells in a 2D host and a 24W xenon bulb overdriven to the tune of about a thousand bulb lumens and nearly 30W. Runtime may be short, but there is no stock maglight on any shelf anywhere that compares.

(btw he's not the only one: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=181106 ) lots of us have built "ROPs"

you should too


you'll like it!!!

You sure should. They're easy, reasonably cheap, and appallingly bright!

 

[mdocod]

Actually, 790 or 820 ma times 14 hours with newer D-cells works out to a total of about
12.6 watt-hours delivered to the Xenon bulb.

it starts off at about 1.5V per cell at about 850mA and about 60 lumens output, within 20 minutes, it drops to about 1.4V per cell and about 820mA and drops to about 45 lumens, at 1 hour it drops to about 1.2V ~750mA and is about 30 lumens. At the 6 hour mark the cells are delivering about 1V, current is about 680mA, the output is about 15 lumens. The light spends about another 6 hours falling on it's face delivering a miniscule amount of light that is has a poor color temperature. It finally dies, thank god, we can replace the cells and get back to full brightness for 20 minutes. By my estimates, it's closer to 9WH or less. Most of which was converted into heat rather than light.

 

[Cyrenaican]

Sorry for the multi-posts above, as I could not get this forum to reply at 4 A.M.! In any
case, Xenon bulbs were not my main point, though I see there may be "more to them".
I simply wanted to note how disappointing most of the LED flashlights in my area were.
Shall keep my Xenons, and perhaps await some sort of high-current regulator for them.

 

[DM51]

Sorry for the multi-posts above

Probably not your fault - I blame MikeLip for this, he had the same effect on another thread earlier today, lol.

Mike, stop it, you hear? You had poor ol' Sig running around then, now it's me, lol

 

[MikeLip]

Probably not your fault - I blame MikeLip for this, he had the same effect on another thread earlier today, lol.

Mike, stop it, you hear? You had poor ol' Sig running around then, now it's me, lol

:nana: