(This is a long post. But I think including full correspondence from Zebralight will help fill in the gaps for some people, and possibly Zebra's email load. If too long for you, please just skip or skim, vs posting a complaint.)
Hello, this is my first contribution, but I'm a long-time lurker. This stuff is addictive
This is a thread of correspondence I had with Zebralight in anticipation of their nearly-released H60 (1 x 18650), in comparison with the H30 (1 x CR123).
I decided to start a new thread because I wanted to focus on the specific question of whether the upcoming H60 (single 18650) could ever be sold with a spare single CR123 tube, or if the H30 (single CR123) could work with an H60 tube (single 18650), or the possibility of using "in general" using 18650's as a substitute for two CR123's in various flashlights. This post contains other information, and other discussion is welcome (I'm simply justifying a separate thread). If the moderators see need to merge into "Zebralight update", that's fine too.
I don't have a record of my first letter to Zebralight, b/c I used their online Feedback submission form. But I was asking for a more specific date for the H60 release, as it was supposed to be "August 2008", and we were halfway through.
Zebralight's Reply (courteous introductions snipped):
We'll announce the 18650 powered H60 at the end of this month.
No preview info yet. Afther the H60, we'll have H31 and H51, both
are reflector based unlike the H50/H30/H60 offerings.
Thanks and regards,
Lillian Xu
Customer Services
ZebraLight</i>
------------------------------
Below is my reply. Please note at this point of my learning curve, I had mistaken 18650's (NOT AA size; bigger) as 14500's (li-ion, AA size but higher voltage). I thought the H60 was going to be like an H50: single AA size--but with improved circuitry to properly handle AA-sized li-ion's (I was wrong).
My reply:
>> We'll announce the 18650 powered H60 at the end of this
> month.
>
Lillian, I'm looking forward to this 18650 version, the H60.
Will the H60 be able to use a regular AA battery too? (of course with reduced light output on AA, because of less voltage, but still with respectable output, or lower settings available?) (I am aware of the H50, but prefer the H60/18650 idea.)
Thanks for the update (found you on CandlePower).
PS you might want to put the word "Zebralight" in your outgoing email name, so your emails arrive from "Zebralight Customer Service".
===============
[Zebralight] Cust Servcice:
Thanks for your comment on the email subject.
The H60 can't take AA betteries. The circuit in the H60 can only work with
batteries above 2.0v, not as low as the 0.9v circuit in the H50.
Thanks and regards,
Lillian Xu
ZebraLight
===============
I subsequently learned that the size of an 18650 is (roughly or exactly?) the size of two CR123's in series. My obvious question below:
Hi Lillian,
In the near future, will there be a (separately sold) body (tube) available for the H30 which can take an 18650 battery, and/or a body for the upcoming H60 which can take a single CR123? I think this would add a lot of versatility and upgradeability to both. (I'd ask you to pass this idea to George if this is not yet planned.)
Also, I know the H30 is regulated and can take non-protected rechargeable CR123's, but what does it do with the extra voltage? Doest it 'burn' it off/waste it?
With the H60, at what (low) voltage does it not turn on? And, at what voltage does it shut itself off when it's already on?
Thanks for your past replies.
------------------------------
Zebralight reply. Note: emphasis added below.
The following are from our engineers and George.
There won't be a tube for the H30 to take an 18650 battery.
The H60 won't take one or two CR123As (there will be another model
for two cr123s, but we havn't decided if that model will be compatible with 18650 or not).
The H30 has a buck and boost converter. With the extra voltage, the
converter works in the buck mode, rather than wasted. With a lithium primary battery, it works in the boost mode most of the time depending on the light level selected.
The H60 uses the same circuit as the H30, except some packing/sizing changes with some components. To your 'what (low) voltage does it not turn on?' question, the answer depends mostly on the internal resistance of that half or almost completely depleted battery. With a depleted rechargeable, the voltage may still be high enough without a load, however, it may be able to power the light only to LOW and MED, not HIGH. There is no preset voltage threshold in the H30/H60 to determine wether or not to turn on the light.
The microprocessor will stop working if the voltage of a battery is below about 2.5-2.6v.
Best regards,
Lillian
===============
So there you have it. Zebralight is not going to be offering interchangeable tubes, not even a little in spirit of Fenix's P2D -> P3D -> L2D -> L3D design .
I wonder if there are slight battery size differences between two CR123's vs 18650 which prevented this idea on their end, or do they just think that selling versatile add-on tubes would cut into the cross-sales of flashaholics? (Or maybe too busy on other things; but then, not too hard to make the tubes cross-compatible, and offer as an upgrade.)
For that matter, could you run an 18650 in a Fenix P2D (1 x CR123) with a P3D body (normally uses 2 x CR123, which Fenix DOES sell separately)? This cool possibility makes such a light even more appealing.
I'm left wondering if diameters and thread sizes are going to be the same between CR123/18650 Zebralight models, which could prompt some to make "DIY" or "3rd party" tubes for the owners of H30's to be able to use 18650's... or what would the technical flaws/challenges be? I would think the main issue would be battery diameter (and I know they vary within cell sizes, and by torch manufacturer), but since only one model can be too narrow, the other should be wide enough to hold a battery of the other with a custom/separate tube, and that is my point.
I'm sure I've seen some flashlights which could interchangeably use either a single 18650, or two CR123's. However, with the same tube size, you have different voltages. Which is why running a Fenix P2D with the long body of a P3D (but still the same voltage the P2D head is expecting) seems superior than running the (extended) P2D head off of two CR123's inside the P3D tube, because you then lose the lower modes due to the high voltage. (Or, alternately, running a P3D head with a P2D tube when you want a "short" torch, giving it less voltage than designed.) The main question is then of battery and tube dimensions. I also forget how well or efficiently the P2D's run on the slightly higher voltages of "unprotected" rechargeables, but IIRC it's okay? :thinking:
Apparently li-ion laptop computer batteries usually (always?, at least the "traditional" ones) use 18650 cells. In fact, a "six cell battery" for laptops means that it literally has six 18650 cells in it (the things I've learnt on CPF...). I'd say "most" us have (or have access to) old/broken laptops, with li-ion batteries in them, getting old.... Would be good to put them to (and of course careful) good use.
Other possibly similar or more-compatible sizes--I have notes but am still vague: 17670, 17500, 18490, 18500... ugh! This 18650 vs two CR123's was hard enough already! Might matter little anyway, since 18650's are by far the most "available" (not to mention energy-dense)... most people have them in their house, whether they know it or not!
Looking forward to the discussion!! :huh: ...AND towards the (imminent) H60 release!
Hello, this is my first contribution, but I'm a long-time lurker. This stuff is addictive
This is a thread of correspondence I had with Zebralight in anticipation of their nearly-released H60 (1 x 18650), in comparison with the H30 (1 x CR123).
I decided to start a new thread because I wanted to focus on the specific question of whether the upcoming H60 (single 18650) could ever be sold with a spare single CR123 tube, or if the H30 (single CR123) could work with an H60 tube (single 18650), or the possibility of using "in general" using 18650's as a substitute for two CR123's in various flashlights. This post contains other information, and other discussion is welcome (I'm simply justifying a separate thread). If the moderators see need to merge into "Zebralight update", that's fine too.
I don't have a record of my first letter to Zebralight, b/c I used their online Feedback submission form. But I was asking for a more specific date for the H60 release, as it was supposed to be "August 2008", and we were halfway through.
Zebralight's Reply (courteous introductions snipped):
We'll announce the 18650 powered H60 at the end of this month.
No preview info yet. Afther the H60, we'll have H31 and H51, both
are reflector based unlike the H50/H30/H60 offerings.
Thanks and regards,
Lillian Xu
Customer Services
ZebraLight</i>
------------------------------
Below is my reply. Please note at this point of my learning curve, I had mistaken 18650's (NOT AA size; bigger) as 14500's (li-ion, AA size but higher voltage). I thought the H60 was going to be like an H50: single AA size--but with improved circuitry to properly handle AA-sized li-ion's (I was wrong).
My reply:
>> We'll announce the 18650 powered H60 at the end of this
> month.
>
Lillian, I'm looking forward to this 18650 version, the H60.
Will the H60 be able to use a regular AA battery too? (of course with reduced light output on AA, because of less voltage, but still with respectable output, or lower settings available?) (I am aware of the H50, but prefer the H60/18650 idea.)
Thanks for the update (found you on CandlePower).
PS you might want to put the word "Zebralight" in your outgoing email name, so your emails arrive from "Zebralight Customer Service".
===============
[Zebralight] Cust Servcice:
Thanks for your comment on the email subject.
The H60 can't take AA betteries. The circuit in the H60 can only work with
batteries above 2.0v, not as low as the 0.9v circuit in the H50.
Thanks and regards,
Lillian Xu
ZebraLight
===============
I subsequently learned that the size of an 18650 is (roughly or exactly?) the size of two CR123's in series. My obvious question below:
Hi Lillian,
In the near future, will there be a (separately sold) body (tube) available for the H30 which can take an 18650 battery, and/or a body for the upcoming H60 which can take a single CR123? I think this would add a lot of versatility and upgradeability to both. (I'd ask you to pass this idea to George if this is not yet planned.)
Also, I know the H30 is regulated and can take non-protected rechargeable CR123's, but what does it do with the extra voltage? Doest it 'burn' it off/waste it?
With the H60, at what (low) voltage does it not turn on? And, at what voltage does it shut itself off when it's already on?
Thanks for your past replies.
------------------------------
Zebralight reply. Note: emphasis added below.
The following are from our engineers and George.
There won't be a tube for the H30 to take an 18650 battery.
The H60 won't take one or two CR123As (there will be another model
for two cr123s, but we havn't decided if that model will be compatible with 18650 or not).
The H30 has a buck and boost converter. With the extra voltage, the
converter works in the buck mode, rather than wasted. With a lithium primary battery, it works in the boost mode most of the time depending on the light level selected.
The H60 uses the same circuit as the H30, except some packing/sizing changes with some components. To your 'what (low) voltage does it not turn on?' question, the answer depends mostly on the internal resistance of that half or almost completely depleted battery. With a depleted rechargeable, the voltage may still be high enough without a load, however, it may be able to power the light only to LOW and MED, not HIGH. There is no preset voltage threshold in the H30/H60 to determine wether or not to turn on the light.
The microprocessor will stop working if the voltage of a battery is below about 2.5-2.6v.
Best regards,
Lillian
===============
So there you have it. Zebralight is not going to be offering interchangeable tubes, not even a little in spirit of Fenix's P2D -> P3D -> L2D -> L3D design
.I wonder if there are slight battery size differences between two CR123's vs 18650 which prevented this idea on their end, or do they just think that selling versatile add-on tubes would cut into the cross-sales of flashaholics? (Or maybe too busy on other things; but then, not too hard to make the tubes cross-compatible, and offer as an upgrade.)
For that matter, could you run an 18650 in a Fenix P2D (1 x CR123) with a P3D body (normally uses 2 x CR123, which Fenix DOES sell separately)? This cool possibility makes such a light even more appealing.
I'm left wondering if diameters and thread sizes are going to be the same between CR123/18650 Zebralight models, which could prompt some to make "DIY" or "3rd party" tubes for the owners of H30's to be able to use 18650's... or what would the technical flaws/challenges be? I would think the main issue would be battery diameter (and I know they vary within cell sizes, and by torch manufacturer), but since only one model can be too narrow, the other should be wide enough to hold a battery of the other with a custom/separate tube, and that is my point.
I'm sure I've seen some flashlights which could interchangeably use either a single 18650, or two CR123's. However, with the same tube size, you have different voltages. Which is why running a Fenix P2D with the long body of a P3D (but still the same voltage the P2D head is expecting) seems superior than running the (extended) P2D head off of two CR123's inside the P3D tube, because you then lose the lower modes due to the high voltage. (Or, alternately, running a P3D head with a P2D tube when you want a "short" torch, giving it less voltage than designed.) The main question is then of battery and tube dimensions. I also forget how well or efficiently the P2D's run on the slightly higher voltages of "unprotected" rechargeables, but IIRC it's okay? :thinking:
Apparently li-ion laptop computer batteries usually (always?, at least the "traditional" ones) use 18650 cells. In fact, a "six cell battery" for laptops means that it literally has six 18650 cells in it (the things I've learnt on CPF...). I'd say "most" us have (or have access to) old/broken laptops, with li-ion batteries in them, getting old.... Would be good to put them to (and of course careful) good use.
Other possibly similar or more-compatible sizes--I have notes but am still vague: 17670, 17500, 18490, 18500... ugh! This 18650 vs two CR123's was hard enough already! Might matter little anyway, since 18650's are by far the most "available" (not to mention energy-dense)... most people have them in their house, whether they know it or not!
Looking forward to the discussion!! :huh: ...AND towards the (imminent) H60 release!
