Hosts Make a Difference in LED Modules Output (with Measurements

kosPap · Mar 23, 2008

Well they do! While testing the Solarforce R-2 bin Led module I found to my amazement that in a 3-cell configuration it outputs LESS light. Maybe it is the extra extender tube resistance maybe the extra battery internal resistance, I do not know....

So I made more tests with a Surefire C2 and a cell extender, 2 more flashlights (an Ultrafire WF-501B and a Huntlight Ft-01PJ), plus one more LED module, a X-Alpha Q5 WC with a retrofitted driver.
The same module outputs differently in various hosts and there can be sugnificant difference. (20% !!! between 3-cell L-2 and FT-01PJ)

Results are shown in the following table. And there is a pattern to them.

You are welcomed to test the phenomenon yourself.

The bottom line for me is that the Solarforce L-2 was bought to replace the Huntlight. For this performance and some other details now it is a gonner!

What do you know... Kostas

bspofford · Mar 23, 2008

My tests gave very different results. With the SolarForce 1-mode R2, I found that 2X16340 (8.4V) was much brighter than 1X17670 (4.2V). Moreover, 3X16340 (12.6V) was 1.8X or 80% brighter than the two-cell configuration. My expectation was that a regulated module would have only minor differences in output, but the output was subjectively and objectively much greater at higher volates.

kosPap · Mar 23, 2008

Yes but you used the same host at one case....Can you test it in another flashlight?

kosPap · Mar 26, 2008

any one else that can make measurements and try different hosts?

bspofford, can you repeat your test with primaries ????

I am troubled because the same module did excibit the same behavour in the Surefire too...

Stereodude · Mar 26, 2008

The lens could account for some of the differences. If one light has an AR coated lens it would have better output. Also the pill could be heatsinked better in one light than another which would cause it to run cooler and also deliver better output. :thinking:

underconstruction · Mar 26, 2008

I am also wondering if it makes a difference in the solarforce whether we're talking about the 1 mode or 5 mode?

My3kidsfather · Mar 26, 2008

I am very interested in your findings. However i am not understanding your results as you may be speaking with certain electronic understandings which may not be fully known by such as I. You speak of different flashlights, but no column headings list these lights. Would you consider speaking a little in layman's language for us aspiring-beginner modders?

Keep up the good work. These are real contributions to the forum.

Marduke · Mar 26, 2008

This is a known effect in lights. Everything plays a part. Reflector, lens, heatsinking, any resistance in the switch or connections (that's a HUGE contributor). What type of springs, etc.

kosPap · Mar 26, 2008

double post..sorry

kosPap · Mar 26, 2008

My3KidsDad! said:
I am very interested in your findings. However i am not understanding your results as you may be speaking with certain electronic understandings which may not be fully known by such as I. You speak of different flashlights, but no column headings list these lights. Would you consider speaking a little in layman's language for us aspiring-beginner modders?.

Flashlights are listed in the first line of the table (horizontal column)

Let me see if I can make it more clear.

It all started when I found out that the Solarforce L-2 outputs LESS light in my lightbox when it is used wiht 3 CR123 batteries (with an extender).
That is fishy because there may be contact problems (more resistance)

So I tested the Surefire C2, with or without an extender. Just to remove the quality differences variable. Same result, a lower output in a 3 cell configuration.

Now that means that maybe the circuit board pecularities (different efficiency with different output or different input caurrent) are the reason, or maybe the accumulated resistance of the 3 CR123 primaries.

Just to cover my bases I used different batteries (that is why their volatge wass measured and noted) and another light, the Huntlight.
(That light scored higher that all, maybe it was trying hard to survive since the L-2 was purchased to replace it). If you study the table you will see that is 10% brighter that the L-2 with two batteries and almost 20% brighter when the L-2 is used with 3 batteries.

Things got more complicated when bspofford reported increase in output with rechargable batteries!

I packed my things and got to bed only to be troubled by the thought "do all modules act the same?"

So I got up resetted the rig and used the three lights of the 2nd table with the batteries used before (Surefire brand read lower being used a bit more). So with the same module there was still variance.
(the solarforce was not used for fear of usage marks cos it was packed to be resold)

So there is definetely variance of the same LED module in different hosts, yet still what do you know, this time the extended surefire scored higher with the custom module.

So here the real experts help is needed in pinpointing the 2-3 battery variance.

Marduke, I read you 100% on the reasons you propose and I will add another. Different beam pattern do to bezel size. This changes the way light is distributed in the lightbox and reflected around the walls. (try a Maglite in different focusing pints to get the idea) The L-2 has the longest bezel extending past the glass which limits spill/corona. And this is the second reason it will go...(3rd one is too long to fit surefire combatible holsters)

To sum things up. We need to know how:
1. How a board works when fed different current and voltage.
2. How battery internal resistance affects current provided.

And it seems we are persist on the bin differences when the flashlight quality/construction/performance is more important.

hope this was good enough..Kostas

NA8 · Mar 27, 2008

You might try testing the LED modules with a bench power supply and heavy wire leads without a switch. Play around with voltage and current all you want. Add fans, measure temps. Give you some baseline information.

Vikas Sontakke · Mar 27, 2008

Any place to buy cheap bench power supply?

CM · Mar 27, 2008

As mentioned above, you need a variable power supply and a means to test the output independent of the host. Another thing: You also need to hold the module steady so that it does not move relative to the light sensor for each measurement. I find that light position can vary your readings considerably. Vary the voltage from say 5.5V up through 9V and record while leaving the module in the same position. Do the above and report your findings here.

GPB · Mar 28, 2008

If you look at the 2008 Surefire Catalogue they have runtime graphs of output vs time for a G2 and a 9P ( it might be a G3 and a P6...I forget ) but the 2 cell light is brighter than the 3 cell light, but of course dies earlier.

kosPap · Mar 28, 2008

well a bench testing method is mandatory for the proper evaluation of th eboard and emitter.

BUT from now on I will have to test & pick hosts too.

Jay T · Mar 28, 2008

I just gave my Solarforce R2 1 mode a little test. Along with a few others.

All were done using the same head and tailcap on either a Surefire 6P or a Leef 3 cell body. A light meter was used for these bathroom ceiling bounce tests.

The results for my Solarforce R2 are.
17670 13.4 lux
2x rcr123 21.0 lux
3x rcr123 21.8 lux

A Wolf-Eyes Q5 3.7-13
17670 15.2 lux
2x rcr123 21.6 lux
3x rcr123 22.6 lux

Just for comparison some extra tests are.
Malkoff M60 on 2 rxr123 30.1 lux

10Watt OSTAR mag 103 lux.

My3kidsfather · Mar 28, 2008

Thank you very much for taking the time to "dumb down" for us (me? lol). I will attempt to evaluate my own L2 R2's when they arrive. Actually, I have a desert L2 R2 two battery model coming first with a second incan model with two extensions next. Will move drop-in from one to the other and try comparing to my P3D for constant.

kramer5150 · Mar 28, 2008

fascinating!! thank you for doing this. It makes me feel really good about running my 2xRCR123 configuration, and just carrying extra cells to extend run times.

Do you notice much of a temperature difference between each torch running identical cell configuration?

Do the 3 cell configurations run warmer than the 2x?

My 6P dissipates a surprising amount of heat through the entire length of the light.

thanks!

NA8 · Mar 29, 2008

Vikas Sontakke said:
Any place to buy cheap bench power supply?

I think if you do a search in the electronics/batteries forum you'll get a bunch of leads.

I came across this one day and thought it would be interesting to look into.

http://tuxgraphics.org/electronics/200707/bench-power-supply-unit.shtml

ampdude · Mar 29, 2008

bspofford said:
My tests gave very different results. With the SolarForce 1-mode R2, I found that 2X16340 (8.4V) was much brighter than 1X17670 (4.2V). Moreover, 3X16340 (12.6V) was 1.8X or 80% brighter than the two-cell configuration. My expectation was that a regulated module would have only minor differences in output, but the output was subjectively and objectively much greater at higher volates.

Hi, I've been wondering where you got the 80% figure from?

I think my Solarforce is brighter on three RCR's as well, but I'm not sure about 80%.

Hosts Make a Difference in LED Modules Output (with Measurements

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