New Ra Lights products (Part 6)

LLCoolBeans · Feb 4, 2009

This thread is intended for the general discussion of the new Ra Lights products announced at the 2009 shot show.

This is a continuation thread from
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

DM51 · May 27, 2009

New continuation thread.

adnj · May 27, 2009

I'm still waiting for the next wave of Ra improvements. Need to buy more lights.

mbassoc2003 · May 27, 2009

adnj said:
I'm still waiting for the next wave of Ra improvements. Need to buy more lights.

LOL
I'm still waiting on the first wave of lights to get fixed. I've now spent over $800 and still have no fully functional flashlights to show for it.

mwaldron · May 27, 2009

turbodog said:
...He's using those darn springy signal-type wires from the twisty. I'm currently on my 3rd one of those because of solder failure and wire fatigue.

He made and sold a crap load of lights using the switch assembly (whole tailcap assembly) of the HDS/novatac variety. What the heck was wrong with that setup? I get far better results from that than I do my current prototype and clicky models....

Actually, if anything this new design is easier to maintain and repair than the old one. No multi-ton press is required for assembly, and tank's are not required to disassemble it for service.

Do we know that the actual switch design has changed at all from the old clicky? I don't think anyone has ever been able to disassemble one to see what the mechanics of his previous clicky switch were.

This could quite easily be a new assembly method (screw vs press fit) for the exact same mechanical switch we've been using. He was on record as saying that the existing problems with the tail switch were due to assembly problems, changing the assembly method therefore makes pretty good sense to solve those problems.

mbassoc2003 · May 27, 2009

Sorry Mwaldon, but that's rubbish.
The Novatac switch has quite deffinately got a different feel about it during operation, even if they've just changed the thicknesses of the rubber and contacts. But a comparative autopsy with one of the many dead Ra Clicky switches out there would be quite interesting if a little macarbre. I can donate a spare NT cap for said comparison.
I now EDC Novatac, on account of the failure rate of Ra Clickies. I need a light I can rely upon not failing because most of my work is underground and with no electricity. Ra Clickies cannot be relied upon if you absolutely must have a light that is going to work and keep working. Furthermore, there is a whole catalogue of failures of both switches and emitters reported on this forum alone, so I would not be inclined to put that down solely to whether the tail cap is pressed on vs. screwed on.
Now, for whatever reason, we may not know what the issues are, and for whatever reason, HDS/RaLights may not wish to elaborate in detail. But when tail cap after tailcap fails, and when light after light fails, you have to go back to the last know good working design with low failure rate, and that was Novatac. They work. They work well. They rarely fail in my experience. I wish Ra Clickies could match them in quality. But at present they cannot.

kromeke · May 27, 2009

I have disassembled both HDS EDC and Novatac switches. They have a momentary style switch which consists of an "X" shaped spring with the ends of the "X" bent down such that the center of the X is elevated and above the other contact. As you press the switch, the dimple in the center of the X completes the circuit. Very simple and it should have a long life, provided the proper material was selected for the X spring.

The old HDS tailcaps which are smooth have the X spring centered by the rubber button. The newer knurled switches in the HDS I have not disassembled. The Novatacs are very similar, but have some sort of plastic membrane that keeps the X spring in place, instead of the rubber button.

Sorry, I don't have a working digital camera currently, so I don't have pics.

Just to be clear, I am talking about pre-Novatac HDS, not Ra. I do not have the Ra Clicky. (I do own a Ra Clicky prototype, but I have not disassembled the switch)

kromeke · May 27, 2009

Followup:

Ah-ha! I found the correct terminology: Metal dome switch. Here is a vendor that provides them:

http://www.snaptron.com/

You can see what I'm talking about now.

The old HDS and the Novatac both use a metal dome switch.

Ralls · May 27, 2009

turbodog said:
Well pardon me for being the voice of dissent, but this seemingly has all the looks of a huge step in the wrong direction, and for those of you who know me that's a hard statement to make.

He's using those darn springy signal-type wires from the twisty. I'm currently on my 3rd one of those because of solder failure and wire fatigue.

He made and sold a crap load of lights using the switch assembly (whole tailcap assembly) of the HDS/novatac variety. What the heck was wrong with that setup? I get far better results from that than I do my current prototype and clicky models.

This has all the looks of a Henry-designed-and-manufactured switch. What's next... making his own capacitors?

Mark my words... stock up on his lights now, while he's still making anything. I don't know what the heck is the problem on his end, but this just adds to the endless list of current problems.

I, too, was concerned about this when I first saw it. I had one of the first Twistys and one of the soldered wires broke. I sent it back to Henry and in one of his emails to me, he stated that they were going to redesign it in future models. I assumed that instead of it being a straight wire, he would instead make it curved and then it would physically insert into the circuit board where it would then be soldered. After I got my Twisty back, I immediately sold it because my confidence was shaken in its, then, current design. I never got a chance to see how/if Henry redesigned the Twisty because the Clicky was announced and I just decided that one of those would be better suited for me.

I looked closely at the redesigned tail cap on my Clicky and it appears that the wires are indeed curved and, therefore, I assume that they are anchored into the circuit board. As far as wire fatigue, only time will tell, but a key difference here is that with the Clicky, there is no reason to remove the tailcap, other than to relube and clean contacts, so it's not like the wires are constantly being stressed like they are with the Twisty.

I assume that the two main reasons that Henry did this are for a more reliable design and if a tail cap does go bad, he only has to replace the tail cap and not the battery tube, as well.

matrixshaman · May 27, 2009

kromeke said:
Followup:

Ah-ha! I found the correct terminology: Metal dome switch. Here is a vendor that provides them:

http://www.snaptron.com/

You can see what I'm talking about now.

The old HDS and the Novatac both use a metal dome switch.

Thanks for that info kromeke. This is the type of switch I always thought Henry has been using and I think it is by far one of the best switch types.

Am I correct in understanding that the Ra Clicky's do NOT use this switch anymore but rather are using spring wires? Or are those spring wires in Ralls pics just a contact point to the switch assembly? It feels like it still has the Snaptron type switch.

Ralls · May 27, 2009

mbassoc2003 said:
Sorry Mwaldon, but that's rubbish.
The Novatac switch has quite deffinately got a different feel about it during operation, even if they've just changed the thicknesses of the rubber and contacts. But a comparative autopsy with one of the many dead Ra Clicky switches out there would be quite interesting if a little macarbre. I can donate a spare NT cap for said comparison.
I now EDC Novatac, on account of the failure rate of Ra Clickies. I need a light I can rely upon not failing because most of my work is underground and with no electricity. Ra Clickies cannot be relied upon if you absolutely must have a light that is going to work and keep working. Furthermore, there is a whole catalogue of failures of both switches and emitters reported on this forum alone, so I would not be inclined to put that down solely to whether the tail cap is pressed on vs. screwed on.
Now, for whatever reason, we may not know what the issues are, and for whatever reason, HDS/RaLights may not wish to elaborate in detail. But when tail cap after tailcap fails, and when light after light fails, you have to go back to the last know good working design with low failure rate, and that was Novatac. They work. They work well. They rarely fail in my experience. I wish Ra Clickies could match them in quality. But at present they cannot.

Dude, I bought a Novatac about a year and half ago from Lighthound when they first had a significant price reduction and I believe that I had the light replaced twice before I finally gave up because I couldn't get a working light...very frustrating! The main thing that bugged me was the flickering on low - they all exhibited this behavior. The other thing was that they all had unreliable switching mechanisms - they would probably miss one in twenty commands, on average. From all that I read at the time, the general concensus was that it wasn't the switch, per se, but the signal path being interupted because of the screwed on internals in the head becoming loose.

Maybe current Novatacs don't exhibit these types of behaviors and if so, it just proves that every new product goes through some growing pains.

Believe me, I wanted to like the Novatac because it was my first light of this type and I LOVED the UI, but after attempting to work with their customer service department, they seemed disinclined to help me so I gave up.

My experience with Henry has been different in that, in spite of my problems, he has taken care of every single one of them.

kromeke said:
Followup:

Ah-ha! I found the correct terminology: Metal dome switch. Here is a vendor that provides them:

http://www.snaptron.com/

You can see what I'm talking about now.

The old HDS and the Novatac both use a metal dome switch.

I took the rubber cap off my old unreliable Clicky switch and it was identical to the one in the link.

Ralls · May 27, 2009

matrixshaman said:
Or are those spring wires in Ralls pics just a contact point to the switch assembly? It feels like it still has the Snaptron type switch.

Yes and probably (assuming that he stuck to the Snaptron switch with the latest switch iteration--see last part of my post above.)

mbassoc2003 · May 27, 2009

Ralls said:
Dude, I bought a Novatac about a year and half ago from Lighthound when they first had a significant price reduction and I believe that I had the light replaced twice before I finally gave up because I couldn't get a working light...very frustrating!

That exactly describes my experiences with Ra Clickies.

Ralls said:
The main thing that bugged me was the flickering on low - they all exhibited this behavior.

And Ra Clickies don't!? I was lead to believe this is a fact of life because you run an emitter lower than it's designed to perform. 'Leaky emitters' Henry calls them. I have this issue on every single Henry designed flashlights that I have owned. Two Novatacs and three Ra Clickies. It's just a matter of how much of an issue it is, whether you're willing to put up with it, and whether, as in my case, it developes into a full blown failure at low level.

Ralls said:
The other thing was that they all had unreliable switching mechanisms - they would probably miss one in twenty commands, on average. From all that I read at the time, the general concensus was that it wasn't the switch, per se, but the signal path being interupted because of the screwed on internals in the head becoming loose.

Again, this describes a lot of board posters' experiences with Clicky tail buttons. The thread may be different, they may have changed some of them to pneumatic pressed on caps, but they still don't work when you need them to. The faults are still there is a surprisingly high number judging from the messages on the boards.

Ralls said:
Maybe current Novatacs don't exhibit these types of behaviors and if so, it just proves that every new product goes through some growing pains.

They do still have the same low level flicker as the Ra Clickies, so that's never been fixed. The buttons seem to be fine. I EDC and EDU my Novatacs.

Ralls said:
Believe me, I wanted to like the Novatac because it was my first light of this type and I LOVED the UI, but after attempting to work with their customer service department, they seemed disinclined to help me so I gave up.

I like the Novatac in part because it's half an inch shorter than the Ra Clicky. It works better, and can be relied upon not to fail. The extra half inch in length added to the Ra Clicky seems to have no logical reason for being there. It certainly hasn't produced any engineering improvement in the light that can be appreciated by the end user.

Ralls said:
My experience with Henry has been different in that, in spite of my problems, he has taken care of every single one of them.

Believe me, now being $800 out of pocket with no functioning Clickies to show for it, I honestly truly wish I could say the same.

beach honda · May 27, 2009

so does anyone know whether the switch design was updated in later batches of twisties or are there still solder joints failing?

gottawearshades · May 27, 2009

This is in danger of becoming a gripe thread.

My $.02: I own two clickies, and yes I had to send both of them back to Henry, but when they came back, they became my favorite traveling companions. 100% reliable so far, they fit in my hand perfectly, the GD beam is about perfect, and the interface puts other lights to shame.

Outdoors Fanatic · May 27, 2009

Anything really new out there yet?

I'm still waiting for a RA Long-Thrower...

Ralls · May 27, 2009

mbassoc2003 said:
That exactly describes my experiences with Ra Clickies.

And Ra Clickies don't!? I was lead to believe this is a fact of life because you run an emitter lower than it's designed to perform. 'Leaky emitters' Henry calls them. I have this issue on every single Henry designed flashlights that I have owned. Two Novatacs and three Ra Clickies. It's just a matter of how much of an issue it is, whether you're willing to put up with it, and whether, as in my case, it developes into a full blown failure at low level.

Again, this describes a lot of board posters' experiences with Clicky tail buttons. The thread may be different, they may have changed some of them to pneumatic pressed on caps, but they still don't work when you need them to. The faults are still there is a surprisingly high number judging from the messages on the boards.

They do still have the same low level flicker as the Ra Clickies, so that's never been fixed. The buttons seem to be fine. I EDC and EDU my Novatacs.

I like the Novatac in part because it's half an inch shorter than the Ra Clicky. It works better, and can be relied upon not to fail. The extra half inch in length added to the Ra Clicky seems to have no logical reason for being there. It certainly hasn't produced any engineering improvement in the light that can be appreciated by the end user.

Believe me, now being $800 out of pocket with no functioning Clickies to show for it, I honestly truly wish I could say the same.

They may never have fixed the flickering emitter on the Novatacs, but I have a Clicky with the Osram Golden Dragon and it DOES NOT flicker...period! My switch also works 100% now without any failures...period! Yes, I did have to be patient for everything to be worked out by Henry, but work things out, He did.

I know that you live outside the US, and it is therefore more expensive for you to ship and deal with customs and so on and so forth, but I know that He would take care of you, too.

Another advantage that the Ra's have over the Novatacs is their efficiency on the lower levels - I don't remember how much more efficient, I just know that it is pretty significant.

Lastly, as far as length goes, I will give that one to you. I wish that they were a bit shorter as well, but it is not that bothersome to me, honestly. Of course the added length on the Ra's is due to the springs on both ends of the battery for its' protection in case of a tumble.

gottawearshades said:
This is in danger of becoming a gripe thread.

My $.02: I own two clickies, and yes I had to send both of them back to Henry, but when they came back, they became my favorite traveling companions. 100% reliable so far, they fit in my hand perfectly, the GD beam is about perfect, and the interface puts other lights to shame.

Quoted for truth! (Emphasis and color added! :grin2:

)

This mirrors my feelings and experiences, as well.

mwaldron · May 27, 2009

mbassoc2003 said:
Sorry Mwaldon, but that's rubbish.

What precisely was rubbish?

I only thing I actually stated was that the new design should be easier to maintain and repair.

Then I asked if the actual design had changed, which no one seems to be able to answer with anything other than a wild guess and more supposition. I can't blame anyone, I'm not exactly willing to cut apart my working clicky to find out. I wish I had kept the non-working tube though...

Finally I stated a possible reason for the change based on information Henry had previously provided.

I understand your frustration with Ra and I would share it if I were in similar circumstances, but I'm not sure what I did to warrant that response. You seem quite proud that you've wasted $800 trying to get a working clicky, my honest feeling is that you've pursued it much further than I would have and perhaps it's time to cut your losses and /ignore Ra threads for a few years.

Regarding flicker, my 140 driven at the absolute lowest setting (I use it this way at night) has no flicker whatsoever.

mbassoc2003 · May 27, 2009

Ralls said:
Another advantage that the Ra's have over the Novatacs is their efficiency on the lower levels - I don't remember how much more efficient, I just know that it is pretty significant.

At least these lights don't 'buzz' as they regulate light levels. I hate lights that buzz because the manufacturer can't be bothered designing it out. Even my Gladius has a high pitched whine. The loudest light I've ever heard is the Liteflux LF3XT. Those are really bad, verging on offensive. Mine is so loud you can hear it in another room!

Ralls said:
Lastly, as far as length goes, I will give that one to you. I wish that they were a bit shorter as well, but it is not that bothersome to me, honestly. Of course the added length on the Ra's is due to the springs on both ends of the battery for its' protection in case of a tumble.

I have a Novatac, exactly the same length as all other Novatacs, and it has a double spring, one in the cap, and one in the head. Only difference btween that and the Clickies is the that the Novatac springs don't have the plates with the three dimples on the ends of the springs. So double spring does not account for why the extra length was needed.

I really hope you're right about Henry making good on the warranty of his products.

turbodog · May 27, 2009

mbassoc2003 said:
Sorry Mwaldon, but that's rubbish.
The Novatac switch has quite deffinately got a different feel about it during operation, even if they've just changed the thicknesses of the rubber and contacts. But a comparative autopsy with one of the many dead Ra Clicky switches out there would be quite interesting if a little macarbre. I can donate a spare NT cap for said comparison.
I now EDC Novatac, on account of the failure rate of Ra Clickies. I need a light I can rely upon not failing because most of my work is underground and with no electricity. Ra Clickies cannot be relied upon if you absolutely must have a light that is going to work and keep working. Furthermore, there is a whole catalogue of failures of both switches and emitters reported on this forum alone, so I would not be inclined to put that down solely to whether the tail cap is pressed on vs. screwed on.
Now, for whatever reason, we may not know what the issues are, and for whatever reason, HDS/RaLights may not wish to elaborate in detail. But when tail cap after tailcap fails, and when light after light fails, you have to go back to the last know good working design with low failure rate, and that was Novatac. They work. They work well. They rarely fail in my experience. I wish Ra Clickies could match them in quality. But at present they cannot.

It's sad, really. I'd like to help him, and at this point maybe if current sales drop off he'll have more time to bug finding and fixing.

New Ra Lights products (Part 6)

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