Newbie Needs Help! Selecting a great light.

I am new to the realm of quality flashlights. I own 2 Inova X03's (one has been beatup pretty bad) an Inova Bolt, a streamlight strion led and a streamlight survivor light. The 2 streamlights are Dept issued from my fire dept. I have only had the strion for about a week but it has impressed me very much. I have been comparing flashlights all day and this site seams to be FULL on knowledgable people.

A little background on myself. I am a full time electrician, a part time firefighter and a reserve police officer. So I need something VERY durable along with extremely versatile. I have been looking at a few flashlights and have noticed the lumen ratings are all over the place. I am extremely happy with my strion led but it's fire dept issue so if i break it on my own time I buy it with my own money and still don't own one.

So I guess I'll tell you what I am kind of looking for. Excuse me if I use terminology wrong, I'll do my best. Like I said I'm new to this. I would like something that I can easily hang from my belt, clip to a tool belt, or clip to my thigh pockets of my BDU pants while on duty. Preferably nothing longer than 6.5" at most 7". I need something with great throw for outside searches but also a decent amount of spill to the sides for use indoors. I want something that will take rechargeable batteries because I have spent a fortune on cr123's for my X03's and Bolt (which is another issue I will need help with selecting.) I would like the flashlight to have a memory so I don't have to cycle through all of the settings to turn it off. I will probably just keep it on the highest setting. It would also be preferable that it have a strobe but at this point it's not a deal breaker if it doesn't. I'd like to not spend more than about $150 but if I fall in love with something a little more it won't break the bank to splurge. Basically I want a hand held flashlight that puts out a TON of light in all directions and also throws it as far as possible. Here are some flashlights that I've found on my own:

-Olight M21 Warrior
-EagleTac T20C2 - SMO or OP?
-Fenix TK11 R5
-Fenix TK12 R5
-SureFire E2D LED Defender
-Olight M30 Triton (avoiding this one due to length but light output specs have saved it from being scratched off the list just yet)

If you can think of any lights that I've left off this list that are equal to or better and compareable in size please tell me. If you think any of the lights or brands of light I've listed are junk PLEEEASE tell me! Are any of these brands just flat out better than the others so maybe I can scratch a light of 2 off the list right off the bat?

Now, back to batteries. What is the difference between an 18650 and a 17670? What is the best battery to put in a LED flashlight, 18650, CR123, 17670? What are the best rechargeable batteries and chargers available in the best battery #. Where do I get those batteries?

Thanks for everyone's help! I hope to be less ignorant on the issue soon and maybe I will be able to help out some newbies in the future!

Brent

Sorry if this is an all too common post, but I am really looking for help on the subject!

Well if you want great throw you should be scratching the Olight M21 and M30 off your list. Both are fairly floody lights, although I just took the M30 out for a ride (dodging city traffic, fun!) and it throws decently, mostly thanks to its extremely high output.

You should instead be considering the Olight M20 against the others here as it has better throw than the two Olights you mentioned. I am quite certain that the Olight M20 supports 18650, which is a preferable size of Lithium-ion rechargeable battery.

I personally think all Surefires are excellent lights and the E2DL is no exception. Surefire lights are made in the USA, which should give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling. It is smaller than all the other lights you have mentioned which is a big bonus if you want to carry it around but has the downside of not being designed to use rechargeables -- 17670 won't fit and 2x RCR123 may or may not blow the circuitry. Surefire advises not to but I believe I have heard of some using 2x RCR123 with no ill effect.

I don't know anything about Eagletac so I will refrain from comment.

Between the Fenix TK11 and TK12 I haven't had experience with these particular models but I have a TK10 (their predecessor, and very similar) and I am not terribly happy with it. It is poorly balanced, slippery, and has a truly useless pocket clip. I also find it uncomfortable to hold. It does have good throw, and a reputation for durability, however. The TK10 fits but does not run on 17670 and the TK11 and TK12 are supposed to work fine on 18650.

I would recommend you also look at the 4sevens Quark Turbo 123. It supports 17670 out of the box and 18650 with an optional body tube (or 2x RCR123), is devilishly good looking, and has excellent throw. I think that the Eagletac is said to out-throw it but the Turbo is a really compelling package thanks to its easy reprogrammability (takes 30 seconds to learn and 30 seconds to reprogram) and inclusion of a holster as well as an excellent pocket clip. Something that is really nice about the 4sevens lights is that they are designed in the USA, and as I have learned from experience Americans are much better at tailoring designs for Western tastes than Chinese. No offense to Chinese manufacturing capability (which is as excellent as you pay for).

Another excellent choice is the turnkey Malkoff MD2, which is based on the extremely desirable Malkoff M61 drop-in for Surefire lights. It only has one mode but the option for two-modes is offered and it is everything you could want out of a no-nonsense duty light. It is USA-made by some really fine craftsmen, tough, supports the use of 18650 and truly reliable. It is not exactly considered a thrower thanks to its floody beam style but when I compare it against lights that are really good throwers, such as the Malkoff M60 and the Strion it does nearly as well while illuminating a larger area at the same time.

I'm sorry if I just made things more complicated, and I'm certainly not sorry if I helped, but I think it's best to just tell you the facts and let you decide for yourself.

Cheers,
carrot

PS Welcome to CPF!

I'll just back up Carrot on the Quarks. They are excellent bang for your buck lights and you have the comfort of a 10 year warranty. Plus you can have two for your $150.

AW rechargables are the goods for your flashlight food as they are protected and also have a very good reputation here in CPF land.

The EagleTac T20C2 MKII nearly fits all your specs with the exception of the UI. If the head is tight, it will start on high. If the head is loosened by 1/4 turn it will start on medium. There is no way to start it on low/strobe/SOS/beacon. You can only get to those by twisting the head back and forth which may be a deal breaker for you. Other then that, you want OP (not SMO). It is a light and well balanced light for the size and mine has been durable. It will run on cr123a, rcr123a, 18670, or 17670. The olight M20 outthrows the T20C2 by a very little bit but the T20C2 is brighter and will light up much more of the area. As Carrot said, skip the M21 and M30 if you want throw. I don't know too much about the Fenix Tk11 and Tk12.

Right. I forgot to mention chargers. Pila is widely considered the best charger available.

I have the "old" version of the T20C2 and consider it an outstanding "multi-purpose" light. The new version (MKII) is brighter, and has an improved user interface.

It is the size of a fat minimag 2xAA, is considerably brighter than a MagCharger Maglite, will run for 3 hours on max mode with 18650 Li-ion batteries (medium mode is good for 10 hours and is WAY brighter than a 3D maglite), takes a variety of Li-ion and CR123 batteries, and is very robustly built.

Here's a side by side time lapse video of beamshots comparing my EagleTac, MagCharger, NiteCore D10, and iTP EOS A3 in a 25 foot hallway. I'm assuming the M20, TK11, and TK12 would be very similar if slightly less bright.

18650 batteries are likely the best power source in terms of energy to weight/size ratio. Like all Li-ion cells, they weigh less than alkalines or NiMH, and they have very low self discharge rates and good performance in low temperatures. The only drawback is their "exotic" nature, so you obviously won't find them at Wal-mart or a gas station in a pinch. The EagleTac and brethren take the expensive but readily available CR123s though, so this isn't an issue really. Due to their excellent power two or three 18650 cells would be good for an entire night shift of running your light on high (unless you live in AK in the winter). They charge relatively rapidly too, so a couple hours on a charger will have them back up to speed.

Hope that helps.

Thanks everyone, exactly what I was hoping for! I think I must be dazzled by the claim of 500 lumens from the M21. Probably a rookie mistake. I have read that it is actually only around 300-350 lumens out the front. I assume that is pretty true for most flashlight rating, not quite what the specs claim? With the T20C2 claiming 300 lumens, I was thinking the M21 would have much more light output than the T20C2 and the M20, is that not true or are alot of lumens lost in the reflector? Is the emitter just not driven as hard in the M21 as other lights but is designed for 500L? Even if the lux is less in the hot spot won't it spill more light to the surrounding area? Again thank you to everyone for holding my hand through this !

I may have worded one part of my search a little wrong considering the throw part. I am hoping for a median between long throw and flood with maybe a little more emphasis on throw than flood. Sorry . So ALOT of light split between distance and flood.

Tre, I was unable to find the T20C2 in a MKII model on their site. Am I just missing it? Is that different than just the T20C2? I did find the T100C2 in a MKII model though.

What is the difference between the Olight M20S and the M20 Warrior? Which is better?

I have read a thread about chargers that is a little scary. I am sure that with everything else you get what you pay for but I was hoping to not have to spend $50 on a charger as with the Pila. How is the DSD charger? Should I just bite the bullet and get the Pila or will the DSD do?

Again thanks everyone, you guys are great!

Brent

EagleTac's web site is VERY poor to say the least. That is why you don't see a T20C2 MKII (the specs they list for the T20C2 are for the MKII model though).

The Olight M21 is rated at emitter lumens while the T20C2 MKII is rated at "out the front" (OTF) lumens. Check the review from selfbuilt. He measured the two models the same in terms of "brigntness".

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/264658

I am buying a new 18650 charger and will get the Pila. $50 is way too much but it is the only charger I know of for r-lithium batteries that does it correctly. I want to know my house is not going to burn down if I accidently leave my batteries on the charger too long.

Charger info here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/229923

M20S has a side switch on the tail for changing modes and direct access to strobe.

The T20C2 MKII is rated at 300 OTF lumens (out the front) or 380 at the emitter. I'm not sure how O-light rates their lights, but from what I understand, the M21 is substantially brighter than the M20 or T20C2, but it is a much floodier beam, so it may not seem as bright due to the tendency of humans to focus on the center of the beam.

Also, from my understanding, lumens sort of behave like sound in an "exponential" way. 20 watt speakers are not "twice as loud" as 10W speakers and 200 lumens won't appear "twice as bright" as 100 lumens. This is especially the case because of variations in how the beam appears between two different lights (spill to hotspot ratio, size of hotspot, etc).

All of the lights you mentioned are excellent "compromises" between flood and throw, with the T20C2 being the longest thrower, but I doubt there will be much difference in practical use.

As for chargers, don't be too intimidated by the experts and masses of information. From what you've said, you will probably be fine with any "safe" Li-ion charger sold at a reputable vender. Use only high quality protected cells and you should have no issues. If you are really worried about place the charger under/in a metal or glass tub/bowl for extra peace of mind. Higher end chargers are wonderful for battery junkies who like to test their cells and have a wide variety of cells to charge. The rest of us are fine with the "cheap stuff".

I have the UltraFire WF-139 and have had zero issues. Batteries never get hot and charge at a pretty good (but safe) speed.

You could always go down the darker side of this, and turn it to something more like a hobby/addiction.

When I started my search someone talked me into parting together my own light/charger combo. You get to choose darn near everything you want!

My setup/my choices were:
NAILBENDER sst-50 3 mode, OP reflector (nice throw! smooth transition)
Solarforce body L2P (18650 AW protected battery with Ultrafire charger)
McClicky switch...

There are millions of permutations! It's a little daunting at first, PM for some starting links.

Other than that, the 4-sevens Q-turbo has been good.

Thank you for clearing my lumen confusion up :twothumbs. Great video, thanks for posting it. I had actually stumbled across it a couple days ago or so. I'm glad you referred it to me for the T20C2. Is there any way to know how a flashlight is rated, OTF or emitter lumens?

I may have to just bite the bullet and get the Pila. It's bad PR for the dept when a firefighter's house burns down. I'll never hear the end of it either, lol.

Is the 320 Lumen rating on the Olight M20 OTF or emitter rating?

At this point I think I am torn between the T20C2 and the M20.

Unless it is stated by the manufacturer, there isn't really a way to distinguish OTF vs Emitter ratings. The best info is probably from Selfbuilt's excellent reviews.

According to Selfbuilt's tests, the M20 is probably rated 320 at the emitter, not OTF. Check out his runtime graphs and output table and you can see that the M20 is not putting out as much light as the T20C2 MKII. Also, after looking more closely myself, it appears that the T20C2 is only a hair dimmer than the M21.

When reading Selfbuilt's tables, "Ceiling bounce" and "Lightbox Max" are his "lumens" measurements (overall light brightness), and the "Throw" column with lux calculations in parenthesis is a measure of the distance capability of the hotspot.

As you can see, distance capability and overall output aren't necessarily directly correlated. As I mentioned though, the M20 and T20C2 are often considered "ideal hybrids" in terms of throw vs spill, and it is unlikely there is a better balance in another light in their class.

Dilly, I think that's where this is heading. If I start spending too much more time on here my wife will start looking for a good place to hide my body. The thought has crossed my mind to build my own. May I ask what your setup cost? Do you know how many OTF lumens you have?

Thanks for the thorough lumen explaination entoptics. It makes sense.

Does anyone have some indoor and/or outdoor beam shots of the M20, T20C2 MKII, M21?

Uff,

Here's Selfbuilt's top notch review of the Eagletac T20 MkII. You can find LOTS of reviews by using the search function.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/264658

BTW, as far as getting addicted goes; too late! OTOH, if you decide you don't care for a light, sell it to one of your buddies [you'll catch hell later when their wife/GF finds out who provided their man w/ a new "toy"...] and then buy yourself something better.

I have a VERY bright, new one for you: the Wolf eyes Sniper MC-E. This one is really very bright (580 Lumens, today they have even 700 Lumens, I think emitter-lumens).
It works on one 18650. It os merely a floody light, but due to the enormous output is also throws quite some end

Regarding batteries and chargers: Indeed, you should go for the AW 18650-2600. These are the only 18650s in Lithium-cobalt technology known to have a good voltage retention even with loads in the 3 to 5A range.

Chargers for these batteries are either the best: the Pila IBC charger, or, indeed, the DSD charger. It costs nearly nothing, and is at least SAFE because it FULLY switches off when the batteries are charged. Loads and loads of cheap chargers keep on charging all the time, even when the LEDs on them turn green (indicating the battery is full, but it does NOT mean, the charger just switched off too!!)
The DSD charger doesn't use a proper CC/CV algorithm, so batteries are not being charged to the full 100%.
The charger I use, from DX too, (Trustfire TR-001) is a charger that actually DOES have a proper CC/CV algorithm, BUT... it really NEVER switches off and in addition, output voltage is around 4.23V which is a bit too high. I modified it, so it gives 4.200V exactly. I only use it when I'm sitting next to it. NO WAY these chargers should be used unattended, at night, etc etc.

If you don't trust those "dangerous" Lithium cobalt cells, (the ordinary black protected cells from AW and many, many others) you can use the AW "IMR" (lithium manganese) cells. These are also called "safe chemistry" cells, with a reason: it's virtually impossible to have them spontaneously combusting. These are NOT protected, you'll have to watch the discharge yourself. ONE TIME discharged too deeply and they are dead, or at the very least, damaged.
A plus is the ability to deliver enormous currents to the light, nearly without voltage sag. These have very low internal resistance, so must NOT be shorted!!
One disadvantage they also have: capacity is substantially smaller. For example, the AW lithium cobalt 18650 cells are available in 2600mAh, whereas the IMR cells of the same size only have 1600mAh capacity.

I use them both: for drains up to 2 or 3 Amps, I use the Li-cobalt cells, for higher drain, high power incans (Megalennium with FM1909 lamp, draws 5.5 Amps(!) ) I use the IMR cells.

Hope this helps,

Timmo.

So the tally was 160, including shipping.

The details are 65 bucks for a NB sst-50/3 mode with memory/Orange peal (remembers the last mode used)
then I got two protected 2600Mah AW batteries and a ultrafire charger 55 bucks
Lastly a L2p Solarforce in sand color 40 bucks

said to be in the 500Lumen range, there are several sst-50/1x18650 readings out there.

But, these were my choices, there are millions of permutations. I did get the old "what are you doing?" from my wife a few times when I was searching for the components on the web. Buying a flashlight it seems is harder to explain away then saying "watching P@RN!":naughty:

Mmmkay...sooo...Now that Wolf Eyes was mentioned I had to look them up. Found some reviews/beam shots of the MC-explorer but nothing for the mc-e2. Anyone know anything about this light? Will this outshine the T20C2 in either flood or throw? How does the MC-E2 compare to the MC-Explorer, or is this the same flashlight? Batteries...I now have a good grasp on 18650's cr-123's and a few other batteries. Have never heard of a LRB-168A li-ion battery. Is this a wolf eyes design battery? Where do I get more of them so I can carry multiple ones? The review I read on the MC-Explorer says the reviewer put 18650's in it but the site says it takes the LRB-168A. Does that mean the ME-E2 will do the same or are those 2 batteries the same thing with a different number? If they are a different battery which one is better?

Thanks for the monkey wrench 325addict :thumbsup:, I had almost decided on the T20C2 MKII but this one caught my attention! Once again because it had really big numbers under the lumen column. Maybe I keep making the mistake of being dazzled by big numbers.

edit: I saw that UltraFire has a 3000 mAh 18650, does anyone suggest it or am I playing with fire looking at it. Seems that they are cheaper than AW, assuming for a reason? Anyone know if there is a problem charging say a 2200mAh battery next to a 3000mAh battery? Can you do it as long as they are on 2 different channels of the same charger and not just in parallel? Was also looking at the charger that comes with the Wolf Eyes MC-E2, is it a decent one or should I invest in something else if I decide to purchase this flashlight?

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/273044

This light makes me think of the home improvement episode where Tim soups up his weed wacker. When he goes to walk into the back yard wearing a helmet riding leathers and safety goggles on Jill asks him "didn't you buy that because it was the most powerful one in the store?" Tim replies, "Now it's the more powerful one on the PLANET!" ::grunt grunt grunt!!::

I ordered my EagleTac T20C2 MKII CW with OP reflector last night!!! Along with 2 AW 2600mAh protected 18650's and a DSD charger. I feel like a kid waiting for christmas while there are 25 presents sitting under the tree:santa:! After reading SelfBuilts charger thread I really wanted the Pila but that may have to wait until I'm not buying a light at the same time. I'm sure I will catch hell from the wife for dropping $140 on a light, batteries and charger . The bad thing is that stuff only cost me $140, but that doesn't count the shopping spree I'm going to have to pay for now...:sweat:

BTW, I found the extra emoticon page if anyone missed that.

Brent