Trying LED flashlights - I don't know what I don't know

Ok, I am a newbie with LED flashlights. I don't know what I don't know, so I like to learn from you folks willing to share your experience. I got a couple (two pairs) as my first (and perhaps only) step into the 18650 LED flashlight world.

I got these a pair of these two:

"Cree XP-G"
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1...dl-sa-006-1-cree-xp-g-r5-370lm-3-mode-zooming

"Cree XML-T6"
https://www.fasttech.com/products/1...xml-t6-5-mode-1000-lumen-zooming-led-flashlig

These I know:
Their construction quality is good for the price point and they are as bright as I expected.
- I know they are not putting out the lumens posted.
- I know for both pairs, the consistency are poor. The two XP-G are not as identical as each other. The two XML-T6 also doesn't perform as close to each other. (current draw delta is about 10%)
- I know I have very poor driver on them. The current draw is all over the map as the battery drains.
- I know the Cree XP-G is probably an XP-E if it is Cree at all, and Cree XML-t6 could be something else also.

Being a flash light newbie, what am I missing that I don't know? (as comparing to some of the "go-to" brand name stuff you got - the stuff you look for) Please tell me why you think they are no good because they are missing X or not doing X well. Tell me why they are "money wasters".

I am not sure I would get more. I have all I need for now - four for 3 of us with one backup. But just in case if I get an itch again come Christmas time...

My main uses are:
(1) Repair (pipes, whatever) in spots of the house where lighting is poor,
(2) Night hunt for cats - out looking for them before on-coming storm,
(3) When out for a walk at night.

Thanks for the input

Rick

Rick NJ said:

But just in case if I get an itch again come Christmas time...

My main uses are:
(1) Repair (pipes, whatever) in spots of the house where lighting is poor,
(2) Night hunt for cats - out looking for them before on-coming storm,
(3) When out for a walk at night.

Thanks for the input

Rick

Click to expand...

Based on your above, definitely a headlight. A NiteCore HC90 headlight.

A headlight is the best light, IMO, for a work light. I have a Black Diamond I bought years ago. It runs on AAA; that's both good and bad depending on viewpoint. I like it especially because it has a variable output, no steps just a ramp down from full to low. I have no idea on the rated output but find it good for all sorts of work that I do. Not bad for hiking either, though for that more brightness would be handy at times.

I've looked at the Nitecore HC90 and am very interested now that I have gotten "into" 18650 cells. The HC90 also has a variable output with the slider on top. There is also a lower priced model w/o the variable output.

Budget flashlights, like the ones you bought, are fun. They work great for non-critical uses, for example, as extra flashlights to keep around the house. For a night hike in the woods, where getting stuck without a light is a serious affair, I would take something else. Actually, I take three lights (flashlights/headlamps) on my night hikes.

Budget lights also make great beater/give-away lights. During an extended power-outage, you can pass them on to your needy neighbors. AA models, such as the SiPiK SK68, are good candidates for giving away.

The biggest concern I have with budget lights is the xxxx-Fire batteries and chargers they are frequently bundled with. Those have a poor reputation on CPF. The advertised protection circuits in such batteries are often absent. The batteries themselves are often laptop pulls. Frequently, the chargers are not microprocessor controlled.

The danger with Li-ion batteries usually comes when they are over-charged or over-discharged. Attempting to recharge a Li-ion battery after it has been over-discharged can lead to a venting event. Good batteries and chargers help minimize the dangers.

In the USA, you can get reasonable prices on good batteries at Illumn and Mountain Electronics. Xtar and Nitecore are the most popular chargers on CPF. Li-ion charger/analyzers, such as the Opus BT-C3100 v2.2, are also popular.

Read the reviews by HKJ before you buy a battery or charger.

Parrot Quack said:

Based on your above, definitely a headlight. A NiteCore HC90 headlight.

Click to expand...

MtnDon said:

A headlight is the best light, IMO, for a work light.

Click to expand...

I like the recommendations by Parrot Quack and Don of a headlamp, both for work and for hiking. My preference is for neutral-white models such as the Zebralight H600Fw.

KeepingItLight said:

Another great option is the BLF Manker A6. It is a souped-up tube light that is in production right now. Price is only $25. Many in the BLF group buy have already received their lights. My two neutral white 3D lights have made it as far as Los Angeles, and should be arriving in a day or two.

To join the group buy for the A6, and get the $25 price, see this thread. Specs for the A6 are also posted there.

BLF Manker A6 photo by BLF member cone

Click to expand...

Based on your measurements of amperage, it sounds like you are a responsible user who understands electronic equipment. You can probably handle a burner like the BLF Manker A6. In a 30-sec. turbo mode, it can pull more than 5A from a high-draw battery after a spring bypass! That can produce as many as 1600 lumens from a single 18650!

After you are done playing, you have 6 other constant output levels, including a low mode that's around 1 lumen, to provide the kind of lighting you really need.

Rick NJ said:

These I know:
- I know they are not putting out the lumens posted.
- I know for both pairs, the consistency are poor. The two XP-G are not as identical as each other. The two XML-T6 also doesn't perform as close to each other. (current draw delta is about 10%)
- I know the Cree XP-G is probably an XP-E if it is Cree at all, and Cree XML-t6 could be something else also.

Rick

Click to expand...

A company called LatticeBright manufactures many of the Cree knockoffs that show up in budget lights.

You can see in this product list that it even copies the Cree model numbers.

THAT is a very interesting looking light! Thanks forthe link to it.

I should think about a head-lamp. That is a good idea, thanks!

I worded my original post poorly. I was thinking from the perspective of feature comparison with similar flashlights. It is my having just caught the flashlight bug of late and want to give those a try -- except I don't know what are the "niffty" or "great feature" or "fun" stuff to look for.

So, I got this budget light, what features am I missing from the say $40 lights with "similar specs" (1x18650, zoomable, 3-5 mode flashlights). What about the more expensive $60 lights. What are some feature with those lights that is not in my cheapo that I would not even have thought of. What am I missing out in having just a cheapo?

I have been using my 18650's for emergency light and other things (powering my Arduino). I have recovered enough 18650's for now. I already have multiple chargers - 2 homemade ones (an LM317 based and a TP4056 based) and an Opus BTC3400. So in so far as chargers and batteries, I am already all set.

Thanks
Rick

(in general)
waterproof housing
higher quality materials, better build quality
regulated (flat output/runtime curves)
current control (vs PWM)
greater efficiency
higher output
lower lows (incredible runtimes)
better UIs, programmability, memory
warranty, customer service
potted electronics
battery protection, battery meter
better tints

etc.

Rick NJ said:

What am I missing out in having just a cheapo?

Thanks
Rick

Click to expand...

I am sure some of the more experienced flashaholics can point out some others, but let me give you these three.

1. Beam Quality Take a look a the sample beam shots at FastTech for the "MXDL SA-006 1*Cree XP-G R5 370LM 3-Mode Zooming Pure White LED Flashlight." They show a beam that is riddled with rings. A good general-purpose flashlight will have a generous hot spot, nice corona, and a relatively bright spill. As you scan outwards from the edge of the hot spot, beam intensity should smoothly decline until you reach the outer edge of the spill. There should be no rings, artifacts, or dark spots. Check the lights you own by shining them at a white wall from a distance of about 1m.
2. Neutral Tint and High CRI The cool white, low-CRI emitters used in budget lights (and many expensive lights as well) are not really white. They are a little blueish. Worse, they do not have the ability to render colors accurately. You can see an example of this in the comparison shots of this post. Outdoor usage, be it camping or simply walking, benefits greatly from neutral tint and high CRI. The browns, reds and greens of nature look more pleasing under a neutral tint. I am speaking about recreation, now, where the goal is have a good time, rather than work, where all you want is to get the job done.
3. Waterproof Zooming flashlights are usually not waterproof. Compare this with more expensive flashlights that carry an ANSI FL 1 IPX-8 rating. Those can be submerged to a depth of at least 1m for 30 minutes without leaking. Contrary to popular opinion, this does not mean they be can operated underwater. They are not dive lights. It just means they can survive being dunked.

Here is a YouTube video that demonstrates the effects of neutral tint in the outdoors.

Hope this helps!

reppans said:

(in general)
waterproof housing
higher quality materials, better build quality
regulated (flat output/runtime curves)
current control (vs PWM)
greater efficiency
higher output
lower lows (incredible runtimes)
better UIs, programmability, memory
warranty, customer service
potted electronics
battery protection, battery meter
better tints

etc.

Click to expand...

Great list! Thanks. I know my cheapo doesn't have good current control, and low is not that low. Those may be interesting features.

+++ Programmable memory is very attractive. That I don't know is available.

+++ Good waterproofing may be good. The main reason I would go find the cats is up coming storm, so heavy rain is sure a good probability!

+++ Better UI - I have the lights for < 1week and I already learn to hate the damn clicking to cycle 5 modes. If my flashlight for no reason flew off my hand and hit the drive way really hard, good possibility that it was a hate crime.

+++ Battery meter is awesome even if it is 8bit ADC. Right now, I charge the battery frequent just to keep it at the brightest.

The others I may not want to pay extra for, but I certainly would consider springing more for the above! Thank you much for the info!

Rick

ps: just came in from the deck. I think it would be a good cat-finder. With my "XML-T6" rubber-banded to my binocular, I was able to scan the tree line for eye reflections. It worked great. Scanning just behind the tree-line (about 100-150 ft from my deck) I saw a small tea-kettle a few trees back behind the tree-line. My neighbor's son (home for summer) must have left it there - he likes to take naps under the trees.

The days of the cat sitting on the tree branch relaxing and watching us as we frantically look for him may be gone. I will be able to spot him!

MtnDon said:

THAT is a very interesting looking light! Thanks forthe link to it.

Click to expand...

Hey, you are welcome! Since you like it too, that made me more pleased with my own choice.

Hi Rick :welcome:

I'm in the market for a charger and am looking at the Xtar VC4, it can charge NiMH and Lithium ion cells too, best part is that it has a USB charge cable which means I can plug this into the Anker solar charger (which I am looking at as well) so I thought I would share these 2 items with you.

If you want a tough light that uses AA or eneloops, get the ArmyTek Prime A1 (pro or non pro is up to you), stick it in your pocket and it's with you all day. If you should choose to use 14500 cells, all these can be charged with the abovementioned charger, so all your cell charging needs are met. Buy one charger, charge 'em all.

EDIT:

ArmyTek also has a range of headlamps but I don't need one right now, my Zebralight H501 (yes, I know it's old school fellow CPF-ers but it serves all my needs)

Rick, are you married to the idea of 18650/18680 batteries? I'm not an expert with regards to rechargeable cells but I can tell you they have their advantages and disadvantages. If you go that route you need to have good quality cells not just for reliability but also for basic safety. Most of your experts & gurus will state upfront that for critical applications nothing will be as reliable and durable as CR123A primaries. The purposes you cite are probably things that rechargeable batteries are fine for but be aware that you're more likely to be left suddenly in the dark with an 18650/18680 than with a primary. Personally I just run primaries but I'll probably get some good quality rechargeable cells for noncritical uses.

I have a couple of Streamlight Argo and Enduro headlamps that I really like. The Enduro is only $15 and uses a pair of AAA batteries. The Argo is around $30 and runs on CR123a cells. I have had good luck with them. They're pretty bright with a good beam pattern and decent tint, and they offer good run time.

I'm not exactly sure where you're looking to go. Are you looking for something a little more high end? Brighter? More durable?

There are some great vendors here at CPF and lots of awesome products! This is a great time to be getting into LED lights.

"Personally I just run primaries but I'll probably get some good quality rechargeable cells for noncritical uses."

Well, it's easy to see why you don't like 18650 - Because you don't use them.

Do you have a Cell Phone or a Laptop?

If so, better Run Quick before it explodes!

NOT!
-Chuck

I don't bolt a cell phone onto my guns and I've never dropped my computer!:laughing: If you're gonna baby your lights that's fine, but most of my lights are hard-use items. I've used rechargeable cells in the past and found them wanting. That said my previous experience with them was limited to A/AA/C/D cells, and not the good ones like Eneloop. Still, going by the guys that design and build lights the typical point of failure of rechargeable cells under hard use is the protection circuitry. Plus- and correct me if my information is out of date- rechargeable batteries typically don't work as well in the cold compared to lithium CR123a primaries. Where I live in South Dakota it can get up into triple digits in the summer (I personally have seen 114 F) and nearly -40 F in the winter (I have personally experienced temps of -37 or lower, twice). So any light that lives in my car has to be able to tolerate extremes of temperature. Lastly it's very difficult for any rechargeable that I know of to match the very low self-discharge rate of lithium CR123a primaries. FlashlightGuide did a test of 12 year old Surefire batteries and found them to perform around 80% as well as new ones! Can any rechargeable battery match that performance?

KeepingItLight said:

I am sure some of the more experienced flashaholics can point out some others, but let me give you these three.

1. Beam Quality Take a look a the sample beam shots at FastTech for the "MXDL SA-006 1*Cree XP-G R5 370LM 3-Mode Zooming Pure White LED Flashlight." They show a beam that is riddled with rings. A good general-purpose flashlight will have a generous hot spot, nice corona, and a relatively bright spill. As you scan outwards from the edge of the hot spot, beam intensity should smoothly decline until you reach the outer edge of the spill. There should be no rings, artifacts, or dark spots. Check the lights you own by shining them at a white wall from a distance of about 1m.
2. Neutral Tint and High CRI The cool white, low-CRI emitters used in budget lights (and many expensive lights as well) are not really white. They are a little blueish. Worse, they do not have the ability to render colors accurately. You can see an example of this in the comparison shots of this post. Outdoor usage, be it camping or simply walking, benefits greatly from neutral tint and high CRI. The browns, reds and greens of nature look more pleasing under a neutral tint. I am speaking about recreation, now, where the goal is have a good time, rather than work, where all you want is to get the job done.
3. Waterproof Zooming flashlights are usually not waterproof. Compare this with more expensive flashlights that carry an ANSI FL 1 IPX-8 rating. Those can be submerged to a depth of at least 1m for 30 minutes without leaking. Contrary to popular opinion, this does not mean they be can operated underwater. They are not dive lights. It just means they can survive being dunked.

Here is a YouTube video that demonstrates the effects of neutral tint in the outdoors.

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

You are right on sir! Thanks for the input.

Of the pair of "Cree XP-G", one of them has a clear ring around the outter edge. All of them have light circles with some slightly darker spots. Luckily, none of them bad enough to be disruptive.

All four of them is some what blue/purple-ish.

I am not brave enough to put them under water to test the 3rd point listed.

Thanks for pointing that out.

hyperloop said:

Hi Rick :welcome:

I'm in the market for a charger and am looking at the Xtar VC4, it can charge NiMH and Lithium ion cells too, best part is that it has a USB charge cable which means I can plug this into the Anker solar charger (which I am looking at as well) so I thought I would share these 2 items with you.
...

Click to expand...

Thanks, I will keep that in mind!

Rob Babcock said:

Rick, are you married to the idea of 18650/18680 batteries? I'm not an expert with regards to rechargeable cells but I can tell you they have their advantages and disadvantages.
..
..
I'm not exactly sure where you're looking to go. Are you looking for something a little more high end? Brighter? More durable?

There are some great vendors here at CPF and lots of awesome products! This is a great time to be getting into LED lights.

Click to expand...

re: Rick, are you married to the idea of 18650/18680 batteries?
I am engaged with the idea but not married to the idea of 18650 cells. I really get into the LED flashlights to find some use for the > dozen 18650 cells I have recovered in and spend days (weeks) testing in the last year or so. The mini-14500 flashlights are tickling me however. They look so "pocketable"...

re: I'm not exactly sure where you're looking to go. Are you looking for something a little more high end? Brighter? More durable?
Not sure, that is why I say "I don't know what I don't know." What I am thinking is come Christmas time, I may look for something better. So, first I want to know what may be the good stuff I am missing. Right now, I only know I am eating Shark Fin soup with no Shark Fins in it (A Cree that likely isn't a Cree), those are stuff I know. Some stuff (like heat dissipation) is just the nature of physics, but others may be available (like a slide switch or build in whatever). I wanted to hear from the more experienced what nicer things could be expected with a higer end verses a budget.

So, any niffty features of high-end single 18650 cell flashlight, I am interested.

Thanks

Rick NJ said:

Not sure, that is why I say "I don't know what I don't know.

Click to expand...

Okay. I have that point but you do know what you want out of the deal.

Buy some lights that read like they'll do what you know you want. Play. Enjoy. Have a good time. What you don't want to do is nothing unless that's what you really want to do.

Maybe a nice headlight (HC90) and a EDC pocket light like a HC20. That's a good starting point.

Parrot Quack said:

Okay. I have that point but you do know what you want out of the deal.

Buy some lights that read like they'll do what you know you want. Play. Enjoy. Have a good time. What you don't want to do is nothing unless that's what you really want to do.

Maybe a nice headlight (HC90) and a EDC pocket light like a HC20. That's a good starting point.

Click to expand...

Yeah you are right also. I don't know what I want out of the deal.

I am just trying to sniff to see if I smell something I may like and I don't even know what is there.

That said, it has been fruitful so far. I didn't know some has built in volt meter. It is just plain impossible to try to get a table of all the features of all the lights. So I am just hoping to read "I got this light with AM/FM radio and it is great" and perhaps this is something that may tickle me.

In a way, I am trying to find something to make it more interesting rather than just a boring flashlight - very bright, but still just a flashlight.

I think I will do some looking into with headlight. Last time I fixed my HVAC (changing blower), trying to get lighting inside the furnace to get to replace blower was difficult. The other thing I may look into is a very small form factor 14500 bright flashlight.