Cold temperature performance rechargeables: 18650 vs RCR123a?

Lux of Sweden

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
3
I know a CR123a primary battery is the optimal choice in cold weather, but if I for some reason want to stick to rechargeables, is there a general difference (ceteris paribus) between a 1x18650 and 2xRCR123a configuration?

All thoughts welcome.
 

ChrisGarrett

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
5,726
Location
Miami, Florida
I know a CR123a primary battery is the optimal choice in cold weather, but if I for some reason want to stick to rechargeables, is there a general difference (ceteris paribus) between a 1x18650 and 2xRCR123a configuration?

All thoughts welcome.

The problem with the RCR123 (3.0v/3.2v) li-ions and even the 16340 (3.7v) cells, is that there are not a lot of published data sheets on the particular brands, since they're mostly Chinese sourced, like w find with the Big 5 18650 makers: Sony, LG, Samsung, Panasonic and Sanyo.

Since your moniker is 'Lux of Sweden,' I'm going to assume that you're from Sweden and temperatures below 0*C are the norm for most of the year.

The difference would probably be minimal for the chemistries themselves, ICR, IMR, IFR, INR, MMC whatever.

With the two cells, you'll have a higher voltage: ~7.2v vs. 4.2v and that might make a difference in the cold, but then your capacity will suck.

I'm not sure about temps way below 0*C, as I'm in Miami and for the coldest day of the year, last night, we only hit about 45*F (7*C.)

First world problems, I know.

Chris
 
Last edited:

Phlogiston

Enlightened
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
601
Location
Scotland
I know a CR123a primary battery is the optimal choice in cold weather, but if I for some reason want to stick to rechargeables, is there a general difference (ceteris paribus) between a 1x18650 and 2xRCR123a configuration?

All thoughts welcome.

An interesting question, but not an easy one to answer, I'm afraid. As Chris says, data are thin on the ground.

However, I can give you an idea of what to look for, if you can track down the data sheets for whichever cells you're interested in.

As examples, here are some data sheets with graphs showing discharge characteristics at various temperatures for three well known Panasonic 18650 cells:

  • NCR18650A - short version with graphs (c/o eu.industrial.panasonic.com).
  • NCR18650B - short version with graphs (c/o eu.industrial.panasonic.com).
  • NCR18650GA - short version with graphs (c/o imrbatteries.com) and long version without graphs (c/o nkon.nl).
Be warned that the -GA datasheets are hosted by third parties, not Panasonic directly. You can find a list of cells for which information is directly available from Panasonic here.

Look at the lower left of the page for the -A and -B datasheets, or page 3 of the -GA short version datasheet. Unfortunately, the -GA graph only covers -10°C to 25°C, where the other two cover -20°C to 40°C. Don't ask me what Panasonic were thinking there!

You'll notice that at the lowest temperatures, the cells have trouble getting started, because the cold slows down the electrochemical reactions so much. There's a large voltage drop at first, followed by a substantial recovery as the cells warm up due to power dissipated via internal resistance.

At -20°C, the -A cell drops to ~2.8V at first, so it has significantly more trouble than the -B cell, which only drops to ~3V. Given a choice between the two, you'd want the -B cell.

At -10°C, the -A cell drops to ~3.4V, the -B cell drops to ~3.5V, and the -GA cell drops to ~3.35V. The -GA cell is actually the poorest performer, which could be very significant, especially if those relative standings carry through to -20°C.

This is why it's so important to keep lights and cells as close to your body as possible until you use them. Nice and warm inside your jacket is vastly better than frozen in your car's glove box or at the bottom of your pack. You'll also want spare lights and cells; that's practically mandatory in extreme environments.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the cell voltage at low temperatures will only recover if you're drawing enough current to dissipate significant power via internal resistance. If you're running your light on a low mode, it may never heat up enough to recover.

I have no idea what capacity you'll get out of the cell then, because the data sheets don't cover that case. Those low temperature discharge tests are all performed at substantial currents.

You can also encounter other nasty problems. For example, if you have a light that cuts out at 2.9V to protect the cell from over-discharge, it wouldn't even turn on using a -A cell at -20°C, because the cell would drop straight down to ~2.8V. This also applies to protected cells, although protection circuits often tolerate lower voltages before they cut off.

You'd also be pushing your luck even with the -B cell. If the temperature dropped just a little further, or the cell happened to be getting a bit old, you wouldn't be getting any light that way either.

Although I normally like protected cells and lights with cell protection built in, this scenario is one where I'd seriously consider choosing unprotected cells and lights that drain them to the dregs. Of course, the trade off is that you then become solely responsible for maintaining Li-Ion cell safety.

As ever, it's always a good idea to test the performance of your equipment in safe conditions before you rely on it. Hint: a good household freezer should hit -18°C :)

On the subject of deciding between 18650 cells and RCR123 / 16340 cells, the first thing I'd say is that Chris is right: 16340s will cost you a lot of capacity, especially in an extremely cold environment. If you still want a two-cell approach, consider 18350s instead. You'll still lose a lot of capacity compared to the 18650, but it won't be quite as bad.

The one place a two-cell approach might pay off is if you want to use the light on a low mode where the cell won't generate enough internal heat to recover a decent working voltage. The extra voltage from two cells might be the difference between a light that works and a light that doesn't.

Again, this is something you would need to test for yourself.

Whichever way you jump, you'd definitely want to carry some primary cells - CR123As - as your last-ditch backup.
 

markr6

Flashaholic
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
9,258
I was backpacking this past weekend and it was about 9°F at 10:30PM when I started. I noticed my H600w would only run on H1 mode for about half a second then jump down to medium. It was an 18650GA fully charged, minus the 30 minutes on M2 mode. So close to fully charged. I'm guessing this has something to do with the battery and not the light. Or both?
 

Kudzu

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
199
Almost certainly the battery. As Phlogiston noted above, where you carry it (on your body vs. in a pack) can make a huge difference. One of the reasons I prefer the H32 over the H600 is the ability to use more temperature resistant CR123A's.
 

NoNotAgain

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
2,364
Location
Blue Ridge Mountains, VA
Like with just about any chemical reaction, the colder the temperature, the slower the reaction.

For one of my cameras that I went to Alaska with, it was winterized and the accessory battery back was inside my coat. The camera it's self had a sound blimp around it to keep the camera warmer than being exposed to -40F weather.

Getting to the data sheets. If you go to the Panasonic USA industrial website and can't find the battery you're looking for, it means that Panasonic isn't officially importing the cell to the USA. I ran into this problem a while back when looking for information on the 18650BE battery.
 

markr6

Flashaholic
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
9,258
Almost certainly the battery. As Phlogiston noted above, where you carry it (on your body vs. in a pack) can make a huge difference. One of the reasons I prefer the H32 over the H600 is the ability to use more temperature resistant CR123A's.

I don't like CR123, but this is one case where I would have taken a set or two to be safe. Some people downplay the need for CR123, but again, in this case it would have been a nice option.

I keep the lamp in my pocket, and also sleep with it. But when simply hiking in 1 hour, it was already stepping down after just 15 minutes of hiking. Not a big deal though, since I was using the lower medium mode. But it did give me a good scare and made me glad to have a backup (T25C2)
 

andrewnewman

Enlightened
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
411
Location
Connecticut, US
I find this surprising based upon my experience. In the winter when hiking in cold weather (typically no colder than 10 degrees F) I always keep my flashlight in my pocket (a Zebralight SC62w typically). When I am carrying the light in my hand, the heat radiated via my (even gloved) hand keeps it warm enough that I have never noticed a measurable reduction in performance. My 18650 lantern (A Fenix CL25R) has a design that dissipates heat from the drivers / LEDs via a central aluminum tube that holds the battery.
 

markr6

Flashaholic
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
9,258
I find this surprising based upon my experience. In the winter when hiking in cold weather (typically no colder than 10 degrees F) I always keep my flashlight in my pocket (a Zebralight SC62w typically). When I am carrying the light in my hand, the heat radiated via my (even gloved) hand keeps it warm enough that I have never noticed a measurable reduction in performance. My 18650 lantern (A Fenix CL25R) has a design that dissipates heat from the drivers / LEDs via a central aluminum tube that holds the battery.

I agree that any other time it wouldn't have been a problem. But having the lamp on my head and hiking exposed it to the cold air. I don't think it was stealing any heat from my forehead with a hat on.
 

The_Driver

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
1,177
Location
Germany
Use IMR batteries oder more modern mix-chemistries if you want to use them under -10°C (14° F). Good candidates would be Samsung INR18650-25R (2500mAh - cheap, but a bit dated) and Samsung INR18650-30Q (3000mAh - very good combination of attributes).

18650s are much better than RCR123 batteries. RCR123 batteries are not really used in the industry and accordingly not developed/improved by the big battery manufacurers (their capacity has been almost the same for the past 10 years). 18650s in contrast are the most common Lithium rechargable there is. Only with them will you get the most modern technology with the best performance.
 
Last edited:

HarryN

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
3,977
Location
Pleasanton (Bay Area), CA, USA
It depends a lot on what you think is "cold". When you are standing next to your disabled car, its (-29 F), and the wind is blowing, that sure feels cold to me. Nonetheless, there are a surprising number of places in North America where (-70 F) has been observed more often than one would think.

Once you get really serious about "cold" then very few rechargeable cells will work, and about the only thing that keeps going is Lithium Thionyl Chloride. They are remarkable, relatively modest current cells and I would not use them unless I was really in cold conditions (due to their hazardous nature), but they do work. SAFT is the primary producer, and Newark carries some of their products.
 

The_Driver

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
1,177
Location
Germany
Instead of using speciality cells like that I would try using a bigger battery and try to keep it warm (maybe even with a resister based heating element).
 
Top