Newbie battery questions

Insulator Collector

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I'm a newbie who recently decided to upgrade some old incandescent mag-lights. That's when I found this site and started researching. But I still have some battery questions for which I've not been able to readily find answers...


  • It appears there is a rechargeable version of the 123A battery, but I don't understand the variations. Is there a difference between a CR123A and a RCR123A? Could I use any of these in an old Surefire 6P? (Over the years I've spent far more on disposable Surefire 123A's than I spent on the 6P!)

  • I just bought an Xtar VP2 charger. It does not appear to accept rechargeable 123A's. What is a recommended charger for rechargeable 123A's?

  • I've read about LiFePO4 batteries. Can these be used in any application where I would use a more traditional Li-Ion battery? For example, will LiFePO4 batteries work OK in my Nitecore EC4SW, and in my old 6P?

  • I note that Li-Ion batteries have two characteristics: mAh, and volts. I get the general sense that a higher mAh "holds more juice." But I'm not sure how voltage comes into play. Using the 18650 as an example, should I always buy the highest mAh and voltage for the longest lasting charge in a light such as a Nitecore EC4SW, or a Fenix PD35 Tac? Do certain flashlights work better with higher or lower mAh/voltage ratings?

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Scott
 

ChrisGarrett

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I'm a newbie who recently decided to upgrade some old incandescent mag-lights. That's when I found this site and started researching. But I still have some battery questions for which I've not been able to readily find answers...


  • It appears there is a rechargeable version of the 123A battery, but I don't understand the variations. Is there a difference between a CR123A and a RCR123A? Could I use any of these in an old Surefire 6P? (Over the years I've spent far more on disposable Surefire 123A's than I spent on the 6P!)

  • I just bought an Xtar VP2 charger. It does not appear to accept rechargeable 123A's. What is a recommended charger for rechargeable 123A's?

  • I've read about LiFePO4 batteries. Can these be used in any application where I would use a more traditional Li-Ion battery? For example, will LiFePO4 batteries work OK in my Nitecore EC4SW, and in my old 6P?

  • I note that Li-Ion batteries have two characteristics: mAh, and volts. I get the general sense that a higher mAh "holds more juice." But I'm not sure how voltage comes into play. Using the 18650 as an example, should I always buy the highest mAh and voltage for the longest lasting charge in a light such as a Nitecore EC4SW, or a Fenix PD35 Tac? Do certain flashlights work better with higher or lower mAh/voltage ratings?

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Scott

Just my two cents:

LiFePo4 cells are 3.0v/3.2 volt cells that come hot off the charger at 3.6v.

Li-Co/Li-Mn cells come hot off the charger at 4.20v.

Some Li-ion cells come hot off the charger at 4.30v, or 4.35v.

The Xtar VP2 charger can charge up the 4.35v, 4.20v and 3.6v cells.

Chris
 

keithy

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  • It appears there is a rechargeable version of the 123A battery, but I don't understand the variations. Is there a difference between a CR123A and a RCR123A? Could I use any of these in an old Surefire 6P? (Over the years I've spent far more on disposable Surefire 123A's than I spent on the 6P!)

  • I just bought an Xtar VP2 charger. It does not appear to accept rechargeable 123A's. What is a recommended charger for rechargeable 123A's?

  • I've read about LiFePO4 batteries. Can these be used in any application where I would use a more traditional Li-Ion battery? For example, will LiFePO4 batteries work OK in my Nitecore EC4SW, and in my old 6P?

  • I note that Li-Ion batteries have two characteristics: mAh, and volts. I get the general sense that a higher mAh "holds more juice." But I'm not sure how voltage comes into play. Using the 18650 as an example, should I always buy the highest mAh and voltage for the longest lasting charge in a light such as a Nitecore EC4SW, or a Fenix PD35 Tac? Do certain flashlights work better with higher or lower mAh/voltage ratings?
Answering your last point first.

  • The Voltage of the battery is the Power it is delivering. This is important as it has to match the expected input Voltage of the device/flashlight you are using the battery in. The mAh is the capacity/strength of the battery - so all other things being equal, the higher the mAh, the longer the battery will last in the device/flashlight you are using them in.
  • There are rechargeable CR123As, but note that they are also made in different voltages (like 3.0V, 3.6V 3.7V). While the difference in voltage is small when using a single cell, this can become an issue if you are using them in a device that takes multiple cells (eg. using 4x3.7V in a flashlight that is expecting 4x3V will give 14.7V instead of the expected 12V). Some flashlights and devices don't like accepting higher voltage than they are designed for. For the Surefire 6P I think using 2 RCR123As shouldn't be an issue. The other thing to note however is that not all RCR123As have the same size/diameter. They might be slightly too thick to fit in the Surefire.
  • The VP2 should handle RCR123A cells. https://www.xtardirect.com/products/xtar-vp2-charger?variant=559464345 Have you tried them?
 

Str8stroke

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You are not alone with your questions. I will try answering them with brief answers. There are tons of options with your 6P. If you want more in depth we can do that too. :) Welcome to the forum.
Here is a great link.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery



  • It appears there is a rechargeable version of the 123A battery, but I don't understand the variations. Is there a difference between a CR123A and a RCR123A? Could I use any of these in an old Surefire 6P? (Over the years I've spent far more on disposable Surefire 123A's than I spent on the 6P!)


Yes. You need to find a RCR123 that is 3.0 volts. There is confusion because not just differences in chemistry, there are some cells that are RCRs that are 3.7 volts or 3.0 volts. To add to the confusion, I have even seen some labeled 3.6 volts. Soshine make some decent 3.0 RCRs. Also know, non-rechargeable CR123s (like a Surefire 3.0 volt 123) are commonly referred to as Primary Cells. To add to the confusion, some of these batteries are called 16340s. These can be called RCR123s too. Then there are Protected and non Protected, flat top and button top. lol

What bulb or P60 do you have in your 6P? Is it a led? if so, what kind. We can guide you much better once we know. The reason I say this is, I run a battery called a 17670 Protected in several of my 6Ps and SF Executive lights. The 17670 is a 3.7 volt cell about the same size (width and length) as two CR123s. Obviously the voltage is lower. But these are around 1600mAh vs two 16340 cells that may be around 750mAh.
So do you know about Series and Parallel wiring? That would be something worth reading up on to glean additional information.

Sample 6P rig: You could run with One 17670 that will give you around 3.7 volts and 1600mAh, or run Two 16340s and have 7.4 volts with 750mAh. So with this example, the 17670 rig could give you a lower output, with longer run time, while the 16340 rig gives you higher output with shorter run time. Make sense? But keep in mind, depending on the Driver things can change totally. lol


  • I just bought an Xtar VP2 charger. It does not appear to accept rechargeable 123A's. What is a recommended charger for rechargeable 123A's?


It should charge RCR1232A's Both the 3.7 and 3.0. You just need to monitor 3.0s. Don't let the voltage get over say 3.2 volts.




  • I've read about LiFePO4 batteries. Can these be used in any application where I would use a more traditional Li-Ion battery? For example, will LiFePO4 batteries work OK in my Nitecore EC4SW, and in my old 6P?
I run the LiFePOs in all kinds of stuff. They should work fine. They are cheap so order them and try it out.
This link may help you out big time:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery



  • I note that Li-Ion batteries have two characteristics: mAh, and volts. I get the general sense that a higher mAh "holds more juice." But I'm not sure how voltage comes into play. Using the 18650 as an example, should I always buy the highest mAh and voltage for the longest lasting charge in a light such as a Nitecore EC4SW, or a Fenix PD35 Tac? Do certain flashlights work better with higher or lower mAh/voltage ratings?

You are correct. I am kinda repeating from my example above. Voltage can come into play in several ways. First your modern LED lights lights have what is called a Driver. The Driver will be what regulates the voltages to the LED. This driver is rated to handled certain voltage ranges. Some will allow you to put say a 3.7 or 3.0 volt cell in your light. If you have a light that can hold 2 cells, then you could double the voltage. Example: Say, your 6P is rated for 6 volts. So if you slap two freshly charged RCR 3.0 volt batteries in, you will be sending around 6.4 volts to the Driver or bulb (depending if yours is a Led or incandescent). Slap two fully charged 3.7 volt cells in and now you are around 8.4 volts. Some Drivers may be fine with this some may not. Also, some drivers will ramp up the output, others will keep it the same.

Your question as to, Do certain lights work better with higher or lower mAh/voltage ratings, as you can see, this depends on what you are looking for. Runtimes or Output or both. Once you determine the voltage you want, look for the highest mAh ratings. mAh is directly related to storage capacity.

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I hope I didn't ramble too much and jumble things up. lol
 
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Insulator Collector

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LiFePo4 cells are 3.0v/3.2 volt cells that come hot off the charger at 3.6v.[/QUOTE said:
Thanks for this advice Chris. So are you saying LiFePo4 cells are typically labeled 3.0v or 3.2v, but come hot off the charger at 3.6v? This is probably a dumb question, but if they come off the charger at 3.6v, why would they be labeled as 3.0v or 3.2v batteries?

Also curious what size batteries these voltage ratings we're discussing apply to... 18650, RCR123A, or other sizes? Thanks again for bearing with my newbie questions.

Scott
 

ChrisGarrett

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Thanks for this advice Chris. So are you saying LiFePo4 cells are typically labeled 3.0v or 3.2v, but come hot off the charger at 3.6v? This is probably a dumb question, but if they come off the charger at 3.6v, why would they be labeled as 3.0v or 3.2v batteries?

Also curious what size batteries these voltage ratings we're discussing apply to... 18650, RCR123A, or other sizes? Thanks again for bearing with my newbie questions.

Scott

Much like with NiMH batteries and their 1.2v nominal voltage, li-ion cells are rated accordingly, so 3.0v/3.2v and 3.6v/3.7v are nominal voltages given by the manufacturers and representing ~40%-50% of the cell's capacity.

It can vary slightly, but they come hot off the charger at ~3.6v and the li-ion ICR/IMR/INR cells come off the charger at 4.20v. There are some INR cells that charger up to 4.35v and are listed as 3.8v nominal.

That's why you need to know what the driver board of a flashlight, or other electrical component, can handle. With a strict ceiling of 3.6v/3.7v, or even 3.2v and you might just blow the device with a cell hot off the charger.

Lithium-ion is an all encompassing descriptor. There are many varieties, much like at Baskin-Robbins 31 Flavors.

Cell size doesn't really matter, as we have tiny 10180 3.7v cells, all the way up to 32650. LiFePO4 can vary in size, but their voltage will either be listed as 3.0v, or 3.2v.

It's important to be able to distinguish between similarly sized cells.

I use the term RCR123 to describe 3.0v/3.2v LiFePO4 chemistry cells and the term 16340 describes a 3.7v cell, either in cobalt, or manganese. They're not always interchangeable. And most of the time, one needs a specific charger to charge each up.

The Xtar VP2 can do it all!

Chris
 
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Insulator Collector

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The Voltage of the battery is the Power it is delivering. This is important as it has to match the expected input Voltage of the device/flashlight you are using the battery in. The mAh is the capacity/strength of the battery - so all other things being equal, the higher the mAh, the longer the battery will last in the device/flashlight you are using them in.

Thank you keithy, this is helpful. My Nitecore EC4SW recommends 3.7v batteries, and it came with two 2600mAh/3.7v batteries. A new question comes to mind... if a light is designed to run on 3.7v batteries, and if batteries of a lower voltage are used, could this cause problems such as failure to drive the light, or possibly even damage the light or the batteries?

The VP2 should handle RCR123A cells. https://www.xtardirect.com/products/...iant=559464345 Have you tried them?

I've yet to buy RCR123A cells, so have yet to try them in my Xtar VP2. However, Str8stroke wrote that RCR 123's are sometimes also referred to as 16340's. Looking at the box for my VP2, I see that 16340 is one of the several battery numbers listed. If I decide to keep my Surefire 6P, I'll just have to make sure I get 3.0v 16340's that are not too thick to fit in the light (thanks for that valuable tip!).
 

Insulator Collector

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Yes. You need to find a RCR123 that is 3.0 volts. There is confusion because not just differences in chemistry, there are some cells that are RCRs that are 3.7 volts or 3.0 volts. To add to the confusion, I have even seen some labeled 3.6 volts. Soshine make some decent 3.0 RCRs. Also know, non-rechargeable CR123s (like a Surefire 3.0 volt 123) are commonly referred to as Primary Cells. To add to the confusion, some of these batteries are called 16340s. These can be called RCR123s too. Then there are Protected and non Protected, flat top and button top. Lol

This is great information! So, is it safe to say 16340 is simply an alternate name for an RCR123?

What bulb or P60 do you have in your 6P? Is it a led?

My 6P is an LED, but I lack the knowledge to tell what kind of LED it is. Truth be told, I don't like the fact that the 6P has just one brightness level. I'm not sure I'll keep it. I've been told I can retrofit the 6P with more modern components. But I'm too much of a newbie to know how to go about that. I'll grow my collection of modern LED flashlights, and maybe I'll toss the 6P in a drawer until I gain more knowledge.

So do you know about Series and Parallel wiring? That would be something worth reading up on to glean additional information.

I didn't know the difference before you asked the question. But I just read up on it and I think I understand the concept now. I've yet to learn how series and parallel wiring come into play with LED flashlights.

Everything you wrote makes sense, and I think I'll find myself referring back to your post frequently as I acquire more lights and expand my horizons. Thanks again for sharing this great knowledge. This is a really great forum and everyone has been extremely helpful!
 

ChrisGarrett

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Thank you keithy, this is helpful. My Nitecore EC4SW recommends 3.7v batteries, and it came with two 2600mAh/3.7v batteries. A new question comes to mind... if a light is designed to run on 3.7v batteries, and if batteries of a lower voltage are used, could this cause problems such as failure to drive the light, or possibly even damage the light or the batteries?

I've yet to buy RCR123A cells, so have yet to try them in my Xtar VP2. However, Str8stroke wrote that RCR 123's are sometimes also referred to as 16340's. Looking at the box for my VP2, I see that 16340 is one of the several battery numbers listed. If I decide to keep my Surefire 6P, I'll just have to make sure I get 3.0v 16340's that are not too thick to fit in the light (thanks for that valuable tip!).

I have a 6P and got a 4.2v P60 dropin for it so I can run single 16650 cell, which is a bit smaller than an 18650.

What module are you running in your 6P? Sometimes, the lower voltage of a single 4.20v li-ion can affect output, but most of the times, things work and if there is a diminished output, it's not that big of a deal.

If you're planning on running multi-cells in series, in a light, make sure that they have a protection circuit on them.

The capacity of RCR123/16340s is small, in the <700mAh range, depending on the load.

Chris
 

Chicken Drumstick

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Your best bet is really to hit Google for a bit and just do some reading. You are asking perfectly valid questions, but they are questions that have been asked many times before, so all the info is out there already.

And really you just need to brush up on some of the basics. Get a grasp of general battery terminology and specs and the rest is mostly easy, of which you'll likely be able to answer a lot of it yourself.

Yes. You need to find a RCR123 that is 3.0 volts. There is confusion because not just differences in chemistry, there are some cells that are RCRs that are 3.7 volts or 3.0 volts. To add to the confusion, I have even seen some labeled 3.6 volts. Soshine make some decent 3.0 RCRs. Also know, non-rechargeable CR123s (like a Surefire 3.0 volt 123) are commonly referred to as Primary Cells. To add to the confusion, some of these batteries are called 16340s. These can be called RCR123s too. Then there are Protected and non Protected, flat top and button top. Lol

This is great information! So, is it safe to say 16340 is simply an alternate name for an RCR123?

The easy thing to start with.


Most Li-ion have a 'rested' voltage of 4.2v and a nominal voltage of 3.6-3.7v depending on where you read it.


It's important to know that a battery when charged and sitting doing nothing will put out a different voltage to when it is under load. This is generally why you may see the same battery listed with multiple voltages.

But just take it that most Li-ion will be 4.2v rested.


There are 4.35v Li-ion, but they will work just like a 4.2v with lower capacity if only charged to 4.2v

There are many types and chemistries of Li-ion, but ignore this until you get and understanding of the basics.


LiFePo4 is something different. And you shouldn't see it being called Li-ion. It has a lower voltage of 3.0v nominal and 3.6v resting. These are the closest thing to a CR123a in terms of voltage output and can normally be used as a direct replacement. While Li-ion is always higher voltage than CR123a's and should only be used if the light in question specifically claims to handle the voltage.


Too high a voltage will simply fry electronics.


You MUST know the rated specs for a torch before putting a battery in it.


I would for the most part ignore mAh until you are happy with the above. mAh is simply capacity, e.g. just like how many gallons your fuel tank on your car can hold. It generally has little bearing on performance or compatibility.

Just as a heads up, the biggest capacity doesn't always mean the best performing, just as cars with large fuel tanks aren't always the most fun or powerful cars available.



As for sizing. Li-ion can be had in multiple sizes, e.g.

18650

18 = the diameter in mm
65 = the length in mm
0 = is a designation, however it is wrongly assumed to mean a round cylindrical battery. Which actually works out fairly accurately in the torch world. Just remember that Li-ion extends far beyond flashlights.


Common torch sizes:

10440 (AAA sized)
14500 (AA sized)
16340 (CR123a sized, sometimes branded as RCR123 for rechargeables)
18350
16650
18650
26650
 

bdogps

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Well I am still learning every day. I recently discovered 18350 batteries and I love the torches that use these type of batteries. I recently bought a nitecore mt10c, but it didn't warn me that the battery was bellow 3.0v. The light just dimmed down and wouldn't change modes. Have I damaged the battery or is still safe to charge? Its a keeppower 18350. For the record I am asking for your opinions and I am responsible for my own actions. Thank you.
 

ChrisGarrett

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Well I am still learning every day. I recently discovered 18350 batteries and I love the torches that use these type of batteries. I recently bought a nitecore mt10c, but it didn't warn me that the battery was bellow 3.0v. The light just dimmed down and wouldn't change modes. Have I damaged the battery or is still safe to charge? Its a keeppower 18350. For the record I am asking for your opinions and I am responsible for my own actions. Thank you.

Just charge it back up and use it. Make sure you charge up when it hits ~3.5v, just to keep the battery cycles up.

Chris
 

mcnair55

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It is always worth having a AA/AAA cell torch in your collection as you will be able to pick batteries up anywhere in the world.A decent pack of pre charged Eneloops and/or good quality alkalines. I use 18650 on a regular basis but on a recent stint in hospital I took with me 2 AA cell lights knowing that the sweet trolley man or the hospital shop would have stock.
 

billcushman

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Insulator Collector, It will help if you learn some DC basics. Some of the information you have been given is incorrect.

The Volt is the unit of Electromotive Force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt

Watts are a unit of electrical power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

The milliAmp-hour (mAh) is a unit of charge transfer (capacity).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere-hour

Ohm's Law shows the relationship of the basic units in DC Circuits.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-2/voltage-current-resistance-relate/

It is very important to understand the basics correctly to avoid confusion and problems later.
 
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Insulator Collector

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Insulator Collector, It will help if you learn some DC basics. Some of the information you have been given is incorrect.

The Volt is the unit of Electromotive Force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt

Watts are a unit of electrical power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

The milliAmp-hour (mAh) is a unit of charge transfer (capacity).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere-hour

Ohm's Law shows the relationship of the basic units in DC Circuits.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-2/voltage-current-resistance-relate/

It is very important to understand the basics correctly to avoid confusion and problems later.

I appreciate the links. You are correct that must learn some DC basics. I am attempting to learn as much as I can by reading on this forum and elsewhere. I have also found the folks on this forum especially helpful in answering my newbie questions. Having said that, you mentioned that some of the information I have been given is incorrect. Could you be specific as to what that incorrect info is? Feel free to PM me if you prefer not to throw anyone under the bus. :sssh:
Thanks,
-Scott
 

KeepingItLight

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Battery manufacturers, unfortunately, have adopted a terminology for measuring battery capacity that is slightly incorrect. Here is the straight poop.

Energy
Energy is the ability to do work, such as lighting an LED. Assuming constant brightness, lighting an LED for two hours requires twice as much energy as lighting it for one hour.

There are many different units used to measure energy. For flashlights, the most useful is Wh = watt-hours. Battery capacity can be measured in Wh.

Unfortunately, many batteries have their capacities given in mAh = milliamp-hours. Although mAh is not a measurement of energy, when comparing batteries with similar chemistries, it can be used to give a relative indication of capacity.

Thus, a 3100mAh Li-ion battery such as the Panasonic NCR18650A holds less energy than the 3400mAh Panasonic NCR18650B. How much less? Exactly 3/34 less.

Similarly, a NiMH Eneloop that has a minimum capacity of 1900mAh holds less energy than an Eneloop Pro rated at 2500mAh. How much less? Exactly 6/25 less.

When you compare different chemistries, you cannot use mAh. That's where Wh comes in. If you want to compare the capacity of a Li-ion battery such as the 14500 battery with the capacity of an Eneloop Pro, you cannot compare mAh. You need to use Wh.

Fortunately, many batteries now have a Wh rating printed on the label alongside the mAh rating.


Power
Power is the instantaneous rate at which work is being done. In other words, power is the rate at which energy is being consumed. Average power is the average rate at which energy is used. For a given time period, average power is calculated as energy used divided by time. Thus, watts = Wh / hours.

In electronics, power is the product of current (measured in amps) and voltage (measures in volts). Thus, watts = amps * volts.


Calculating the Energy Capacity of a Battery
Comparing the two formulas for watts, we get Wh / hours = amps * volts. This gives us another formula for energy capacity.

Energy (measured in Wh) = amps * volts * hours.

This explains why mAh is the wrong way to measure the energy capacity of a battery. mAh is the product of amps (measured in milliamps) and hours.

mAh = 1000 * amps * hours

Dropping the milli- prefix gives

Ah = amps * hours

Compare this with the formula for Wh given at the beginning of this section. Here it is again, with volts moved to the end.

Wh = amps * hours * volts

To be a true measure of energy capacity, we need to multiply mAh times volts.

Energy (measured in mWh) = mAh * volts

This might make you think you can find the energy capacity of a Li-ion battery by multiplying its capacity in mAh by 4.2 volts. Unfortunately, that does not work. Li-ion batteries are highly non-linear. Fully charged, the voltage is typically 4.2 volts, but it declines during usage. By the time a Li-ion battery is largely empty, its voltage will have fallen to around 3.0 volts. Using 4.2 volts gives you an estimate of capacity that is too high.

An approximation can be obtained by using 3.7 volts, the nominal voltage of most Li-ion batteries. Thus, a 3400mAh Li-ion battery will hold approximately 3.7 * 3400 mWh (milliwatt-hours) of energy. In Wh, that is 3.7 * 3.4. Due to the non-linear nature of battery voltage, this is only an estimate. Check the manufacturer's specification to get the exact value.

Hope this helps.

Homework Assignment: Compare the energy capacity of a Li-ion 14500 battery with that of a NiMH Eneloop Pro. Flashlights like the ZebraLight SC52w allow you to use either one of these batteries. Which one has the higher energy capacity?
 
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