Why No Runtime Graphs?!

Hi all, new user and first post here.

I'm looking to buy my first LED flashlight and specifically looking at the 1AAA models,something I can have in my pocket all the time.

As an engineer, I like seeing the lumens/candela/run-time specs but am pretty disappointed in the lack of availability of lumens vs. runtime graphs. You hardly get the full performance picture without these graphs and in their absence, the lumen/run-time specs can be downright misleading. Streamlight appears to be the only manufacturer I've seen that provides these on their website (in the fact sheets), which I love.

Take for example, the similarly-priced Pelican 1910b vs the Streamlight ProTac 1AAA. Both are 1AAA alkaline-powered, but the Pelican claims 106 lumens with 2.5 hours runtime and the Streamlight claims 70 lumens with 0.5 hours runtime. I'm aware of the FL1 standard and that the runtime is duration to 10% initial output. The question is, how can the Pelican have such apparently drastically better performance? In my mind, either:

A) The Pelican is taking advantage of much newer/better LED or regulation technology; or

B) The Pelican is deceivingly reporting runtimes with a lithium AAA battery; or

C) The Pelican is playing games with the light delivery over the course of the runtime, which would be apparent on a runtime graph (that is not available on their website).

What I mean here with (C): The Streamlight's graph clearly shows the lumen output stays pretty flat (above 90%) for the first 12 minutes or so before dropping to about 50% at 20 minutes, then falling off a cliff to less than 15% by 22 minutes, then a slow crawl for 8 minutes before reaching 10% at 30 minutes runtime. The last 8 minutes look like an intentional design of the driver to stretch the runtime misleadingly from 22 minutes to 30 minutes. On the other hand, graphs of other flashlights (e.g., the ProTac 1L-1AA) show them only outputting 100% at the immediate beginning before rapidly dropping to 50-70% output for the bulk of the runtime, thus allowing them to misleadingly claim a higher "max" output. Some higher-end tactical flashlights (e.g., the Streamlight TL-2 LED), although having lower "max" output, remain close to 100% for most of the runtime. This last scenario is ideal in my opinion, as it's the least misleading and results in a more predictable tool (i.e., the flashlight) at any given time (i.e., state of discharge). Obviously higher "max" lumens is what sells flashlights to the common uneducated consumer (or someone who only cares about initial brightness), but I feel most people, if educated, would prefer a more consistent brightness over the course of discharge.

So, back to my comparison of the 1910b and ProTac 1AAA, which of the above explanations is the most correct? Are there runtime graphs out there for the 1910b? I feel strongly that an astute consumer cannot make an informed decision with them!

Sorry, the above should read: "...an astute consumer cannot make an informed decision without them!"

I don't see that I can edit posts yet. If a moderator sees this, can you please correct my initial post and delete this one? Thanks!

Run time graphs should have been required as part of the ANSI FL1 standard. Kudos for Streamlight for publishing them for their lights ( BTW, Streamlight's graphs are accurate in my experience).


I think that B) is probably not the case, unless they supply Energizer lithiums with the light (FL1 requires the specs to be with the battery that the manufacture supplies with the light).


led-resource.com has a review of the 1910 with an excellent run time graph, but unfortunately it probably won't do you much good as it is for the 39 lumen c.2011 version.


I doubt that even with a newer, more efficient LED, Pelican is getting 2.5 hrs out of a alkaline AAA unless there is a very steep step down from 100+ lumens after the first few minutes (it is not unusual for LED flashlights to be designed this way, to allow maximum brightness for short periods without overheating the LED of draining the battery too fast).

Here is an example of Streamlight runtime graph:

http://streamlight.com/docs/default-source/fact-sheet/279.pdf

xxo said:

I doubt that even with a newer, more efficient LED, Pelican is getting 2.5 hrs out of a alkaline AAA unless there is a very steep step down from 100+ lumens after the first few minutes.

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Definitely not getting 2.5 hours at 106 lumens - probably not from any battery type, including lithium primaries. That would be require record-setting LED and driver efficiciency by a large margin, and AAA alkalines simply can't maintain the level of current output necessary to enable 100+ lumen output except when they're fresh. The Streamlight's rated performance is more typical.

The most likely explanation is (C) the Pelican falls out of regulation relatively early on, losing brightness over time, or has a step down. This is very common with alkalines, especially in 1 x AAA lights, because those batteries can't push out the power needed for ~100 lumen output at a voltage the driver can make use of effectively except when they're nearly at full charge. Most 1xAAA lights do significantly better with NiMH or lithium-primary batteries, but exactly how well can't be presumed.

I took a look again at a few AAA light reviews and even on lithium primaries nothing seems to get anywhere close. A few manage flat output at around 100 lumens a little past 1 hour on lithium, and FL1 10% output at a little over 1.5 hours, but definitely not 2.5 hours. A couple examples in the third to last graph here (The Olight i3S and Lumintop Tool stand out in that graph for consistency on this battery type. The graph also shows the Fenix LD02's programmed step-down):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?401362

So if you need consistent high-output performance, runtime graphs are the best way to tell what you're getting, and alkalines are a poor battery choice for the goal (but fine for lower power lights). Since manufacturers seldom provide this data, we're stuck depending on third party reviewers like Selfbuilt for that.

No runtimes graphs?
Because runtimes graphs expose the TRUTH!!!
Harharhar

vsiddhartha said:

Hi all, new user and first post here.

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Welcome, fasten your wallet and prepare for multiple purchases.

I do not trust Manufacturer specs. Lumen specs can be misleading when a manufacturer reports LED lumens instead of ANSII lumens.. 100 LED lumen might equal 70 Ansii lumen
I trust independent reviews including from selfbuilt and especially maukka

if your goal is to choose an AAA light, the Copper Tool w Nichia is, on sale for $25 with code e8b575 at bangood. Learn more about the Tool in these reviews
Lumintop Tool AAA Copper + Titanium measurements (Nichia 219B)
Lumintop Tool Ti (Nichia 219BT, 1xAAA, Titanium) Review: RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS and more
a light I sometimes recommend is the Oligh i3s, though I prefer lights with Nichia LEDs

factors I prioritize when choosing a light are very strict and limiting.. NoPWM, High CRI, Reversible pocket clip, and I like twisties. I do not clip a light to my pocket, and I do not buy for max brightness, I mostly use Medium and Low. I never use LiIon. I dont prioritize low price, my personal preference is for Copper. As you can see, personal priorities can vary from person to person.

trying to buy a light by reading manufacturers lumen specs can be very frustrating and misleading. using runtimes is one of the most frustrating of all. I suggest you deprioritize those criteria. Assume that for the same battery and brightness, runtime will be similar. Consistency of brightness during runtime IS an important criteria, third party graphs comparing models can be very helpful.

Runtime to 50% is also helpful, since by then I would be wanting to change batteries. But Runtime is not a high priority selection criteria for me. Im an eneloop user, and I carry a spare, so my runtime is "unlimited". More important is how low the low is, I want it to be near 1 lumen, not 5. what is the medium level, I want it to be closer to 20 than 10. High mode is the least of my priorities, and its runtime will generally be 1/2 hour, after which the light might be at 50% brightness and I would be planning to use my spare battery soon. I dont buy AAA lights for their runtime on High.

Here are a few threads that will help you learn more about the criteria that different people consider a priority, and what AAA light they choose:
Very difficult NOT to love AAA's these days.
What is the cat's meow for affordable AAA twisty lights these days?
Best single AAA pocket flashlight?

Pelican unfortunately chose to enter the deceptive lumen wars game.
Shame on them. I like Pelican products....well the older ones anyway.

A few folks give you 'real numbers' that are the numbers you get at the outside of the lens as long as physics allows the given choice of LED 'chip' ro provide that brightness.
Streamlight has at some point decided to not join the lumen wars. However the TL2 was a 6 volt light whose fuel source (2x 123's) allows a longer, steadier brightness where the triple A just doesn't contain the amount of 'fuel' to hold the output steady as long.

If you opt for a 1x AAA light the Eneloop Pro rechargeable cells will provide you a noticeable improved runtime and their 'dense' contruction allows more time at given outputs. Money well spent. I discovered their "xx" model some time ago for power hungry cameras and their updated "pro" model work great in unregulated high draw triple A lights providing much longer time spans before dimming is noticable.

Around here we get our 'truths' from flashlight reviews. And Flashlight Guide is also a great source for truthful graphs and runtimes.

Welcome to the site.

Yup I wrote about the same thing earlier. It would sum up everything you need to know really (if it shows each level). But it's pretty simple. They don't want you to know that the '900 Lumens' drops off to 300 after 2 min.

Much as with most individuals involved in business, companies find that it's naturally easier to succeed by continuously lying and deceiving. Because they're not smart enough to be honest & straightforward, and still succeed.

Beckler said:

Yup I wrote about the same thing earlier. It would sum up everything you need to know really (if it shows each level). But it's pretty simple. They don't want you to know that the '900 Lumens' drops off to 300 after 2 min.

Much as with most individuals involved in business, companies find that it's naturally easier to succeed by continuously lying and deceiving. Because they're not smart enough to be honest & straightforward, and still succeed.

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Not everybody uses deception. And some who don't are successful anyway.

It should also be noted that consumers searching out 'something for nothing' products play right into the hands of deceptive marketing. Basically if the stuff didn't sell they'd disappear. Supply & Demand is a 2 way street.

Beckler said:

They don't want you to know that the '900 Lumens' drops off to 300 after 2 min.

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i find it totally legit that the 900 lumens are sustained for a short time only and the manufacturer or the industry agreed to advertise this number only. ansi fl-1 standard is there to determine the max brightness on a freshly charged battery within the first few minutes but not earlier than 30sec after initial activation. in practice, max brightness decreases monotonously from the very first second because of the battery voltage decrease. flashlight makers try hard to push the LED hard to its max, with the result that LED (hot heat!) and battery can sustain the extreme situation for a short time only.

same with our cars. one of the key specs is the max speed. manufacturer lists 230km/h in the ad. nobody would believe that the car can or should be driven at the 230km/h, where the car maxes out, for the full tankful of gasoline.

that was a fair analogy.

imho a good flashlight must have constant brightness modes/levels otherwise. A perfect example is the PD32 2016 which has quite a unique mode-stepping-down feature where each of the on-Turbo modes are 100% constant in brightness. zebralight has a similar characteristic afaik.

Having said the above, i am always impressed by lights with industry-leading efficiency. And for this to know, one needs to see the full runtime graph!