I live in the ghetto.

I'm sitting here mindless browsing the internet like i always do at night when i hear. POP......POP.POP.POP.POP, outside my window in my apartment complex in sacramento. Loud. this wasnt someone dumping something in the dumpster I promtply exit the room facing the street and call 911 where I see my roomate looking at me like "did you hear that?". About 3 minutes later i get a phone call from a deputy trying to figure out where the shots were coming from. Hey i got to use my new A2 to signal his attention. great. My lease is up august 1. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif im seriously considering picking up a shotgun at big5 tomorrow

I lived in Sacramento from 76-79 while in the Air Force, at McClellan. I later lived in an apt in the SE corner of where I-80 and I-5 connect in 87-88. There was a lot of new housing being built around that apt at the time.

I loved Sacramento. It was a fun city that still acted like a small town.

I guess a lot has changed since I lived there.

I used to ride my bicycle to work at SMF through the rice paddies and tomato fields and on the levee. There was nothing else between my apt and the airport.

Rafting on the American River from Sunrise to Watt was a fun way to spend a hot day.

Sacramento's location was perfect. An hour in any direction was something totally different to do. East to the mountains, west to the coast, north to wine country, south to.... ahhh.... well, nothing interesting unless you stayed in the foothills.

Now you have me reminiscing about the good old days, I'd better stop.

Every once in a while, here in my downtown Seattle apartment, I'll hear that dreadful "pop pop pop" too.
Only once though, was it close enough to get me to pick up the telephone and call 911. Usually it's somewhere in Belltown (northeast of me) or near the Bon Marche (east of me), not right near my building.

Yikes! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh.gif

A couple months ago a .44 Mag was emptied next door! (houses, not Apts). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/xyxgun.gif

It was an isolated incident though. I rarely ever hear gunshots at New Year or July 4th. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif

i am in a bad hood to. it is awefull but thanks to my dogs not many people mess with me.snoop will eat em lol dd is justinsane the projects are the next block over

glock_nor_cal,

By all means, buy the shotgun. It won't mean that your future actions will be carved in stone. It will only mean that in some ugly situations, you'll have some new options that you wouldn't have without it. More options are good. Good for you and your neighbors, too.

Even from your brief post I can see that a shotgun in your hands will have a completely different effect on our society than the thug going POP......POP.POP.POP.POP in the night. Those that can't see that have far more freedom than they deserve...and they may not have it much longer.

Good luck

Get the shotgun and some training. Don't forget the pepper spray, Fox is the best.

I hear the pop pop pop every so often. I call 911 and get put on hold then transferred and since I don't know the exact address where it came from they won't dispatch anyone. I've started telling my wife that they are kids playing with fireworks so she doesn't get worried. I'm remodeling my kitchen and bathroom to make the house look real nice so hopefully it will be easy to sell.

[ QUOTE ]
Sub_Umbra said:
glock_nor_cal,

By all means, buy the shotgun. It won't mean that your future actions will be carved in stone. It will only mean that in some ugly situations, you'll have some new options that you wouldn't have without it. More options are good. Good for you and your neighbors, too.

Even from your brief post I can see that a shotgun in your hands will have a completely different effect on our society than the thug going POP......POP.POP.POP.POP in the night. Those that can't see that have far more freedom than they deserve...and they may not have it much longer.

Good luck

[/ QUOTE ]

Sub,

What do you mean "may not have it much longer"? It's already pretty much gone, people just don't know it yet, like someone who's ingested a fatal dose of poison but is still alive for a short span of time.

Freedom? People are always stupid enough to trade freedom for security, or a sense of security. People want easy choices, with no real consequences, not freedom. Look what has happened to the search and seizure ammendment. Look at the so-called Patriot Act.

I'm sure you know more about this than I do, and I suppose you meant that soon certain people will come face to face with the consequences of giving over to the government all of their real rights and powers in exchange for little or nothing of real value. I suppose you mean that they will see the light when they are dragged away and imprisoned and held indefinitely without being charged or tried, simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, it reminds me of a quote I had to memorize while at the Air Force Academy:

[ QUOTE ]
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still, I can't help but admire a man such as Mahatma Gandhi far more than a great General or war hero. Practical and prosaic wisdom may declare such a policy of non-violence as stupidity, but look at the practical results he achieved! And the amount of courage required, and self-discipline, is a far more noble thing to achieve, than skill in arms or self-defense. I disagree with you that not using force against force only increases violence. I think the key is the manner in which you disdain to use force. Caving-in and aiding and abetting are one thing; but what Gandhi and his followers did is another, completely different thing.

Violence breeds violence. I think this is true absolutely on a spiritual level, but on the material level, I hold that force and violence are sometimes necessary to prevent a greater injustice. I would not stand by and let a thug abuse my wife, but I would try not to shoot him in a spirit of hatred. Rather one of regret at having to resort to such means.

OK. Sorry. A little off topic there.

Back OT, yeah, buy the shotgun. Shotguns are great home defense weapons. IIRC, when used with small buck shot they will not penetrate a standard house wall, but will take down any intruder that persists in offensive action. I've always liked shot guns. Lots of options. Lots of uses. And you can buy a decent shot gun for cheap.

Plus, get the gun now while you still can.

[ QUOTE ]
js said:
...Still, I can't help but admire a man such as Mahatma Gandhi far more than a great General or war hero. Practical and prosaic wisdom may declare such a policy of non-violence as stupidity, but look at the practical results he achieved! And the amount of courage required, and self-discipline, is a far more noble thing to achieve, than skill in arms or self-defense. I disagree with you that not using force against force only increases violence. I think the key is the manner in which you disdain to use force. Caving-in and aiding and abetting are one thing; but what Gandhi and his followers did is another, completely different thing.

Violence breeds violence. I think this is true absolutely on a spiritual level, but on the material level, I hold that force and violence are sometimes necessary to prevent a greater injustice. I would not stand by and let a thug abuse my wife, but I would try not to shoot him in a spirit of hatred. Rather one of regret at having to resort to such means.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pacifism is like anything else -- it's ok as long as it's not carried to excess. It is also extremely important for people to remember that their right to be Pacifists did not come to them through acts of Pacifism.

All of our rights emminate from the barrel of a gun.

[ QUOTE ]
js said:
OK. Sorry. A little off topic there.

Back OT, yeah, buy the shotgun. Shotguns are great home defense weapons. IIRC, when used with small buck shot they will not penetrate a standard house wall, but will take down any intruder that persists in offensive action. I've always liked shot guns. Lots of options. Lots of uses. And you can buy a decent shot gun for cheap.

Plus, get the gun now while you still can.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're probably closer than it sounds on all of this.

Sub,

Practically speaking, we are probably close. i.e. we might do the same things or vote the same way, touching this issue.

But philosophically speaking, you and I could not be further apart on this issue.

I completely, totally, and in all other ways /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif , disagree with you.

Our rights, freedoms, the most important components of civilization, all the things that make us more than clever monkeys, --all of it comes from a metaphysical understanding of the world and life and being. Or, if you prefer, all of it comes from God. In fine, might does NOT make right. This is all straight out of the beginning discussion in Plato's Republic.

Someone with a gun can use it according to his sense of right, but a right can not "emanate" from a gun. Right does not "come forth" or "issue as from a source" from a gun. If this were true there'd be a whole lot more "rights" in the world.

All of this is assuming, of course, that we define "right" by what is just and good, and not according to personal convenience or power. I trust we would both agree to this, yes?

And I would say that pacifism is ONLY ok as long as it IS taken to excess. i.e. only as long as it proceeds out of the strongest and most potent spiritual conviction, and only as long as the people involved place Truth and Justice above even their own lives. Gandhi's main idea, I think, was to convert his enemies to right, relying and trusting on the inherent goodness in the hearts of all people. And it worked. It's rather hard to villanize a cause such as Gandhi's was.

I should point out that I do not feel the same way about college kids who tie themselves to red wood trees and logging equipment. But I will leave that aside.

Anyway, I'm sure we can agree to disagree on this one.

Jim,

Most of our disagreement on this issue seems to be pretty much a matter of degree -- that coupled with my incendiary nature.

I wish I had more neighbors like you.

Regards,

Sub

[ QUOTE ]
Sub_Umbra said:
Jim,

Most of our disagreement on this issue seems to be pretty much a matter of degree -- that coupled with my incendiary nature.

I wish I had more neighbors like you.

Regards,

Sub

[/ QUOTE ]

Sub,

I am truly honored that you said this. Thank you. As for your "incendiary nature" keep it coming. You know I enjoy a good disagreement, and you must know that I always pay very careful attention to what you say. Good stuff, Sub. As I said, keep it coming.

I live in a prosperous suburb right at the beginning of its invariable demographic decline. Nearly all the vacant land has been developed, and the next ring of suburbs are growing, slowly taking the affluent with them.

I live in an apartment complex that's at the low end of what's available in this town. I've been randomly solicited by some of the local drug dealers at night. Car break-ins are on the rise. Every immediate neighbor of mine has been evicted from their apartment - twice. I'm seeing police cruisers in the parking lot handling low-level "situations" more often.

Am I scared? No. Just more aware of my slowly changing surroundings.

Given the gradual decay of the community - nothing serious yet, but the indicators are there - I'm slightly concerned. I confess to some irrational Y2k paranoia ~6 years ago that had me glancing at gun counters in sporting-goods stores. I'm not at that stage yet, but options are a good thing to have.

I think some of the fear about guns on the left comes from some bizzare paranoia that most people lose all rationality when they have a gun. Although there are some that lose self-control at times, they are very, very few.

I have to agree with Sub_Umbra that it's better to be in a position of strength and enjoy freedoms than it is to be at a disadvantage and pleading for freedoms. The fact that a system like ours was ever established required substantially upsetting the status quo and fending them off until our notions colonized them and helped perpetrate the system.

How many pacifists suffered terribly - or were killed - as a result of Ghandi? Ghandi was relativly safe because of his fame, but a nameless participant in the movement was in danger.

[ QUOTE ]
idleprocess said:
I think some of the fear about guns on the left comes from some bizzare paranoia that most people lose all rationality when they have a gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure who is more paranoid- the left or the rightwing. I have owned firearms since 1969 as a teenager and have never known a time when rampant paranoia did not permeate the minds of many/most firearms owners.

I knew a major gun dealer in Denver who made mucho bucks each time another "they're coming to take our guns" panic would sweep over the firearms owning population. People would come into his shop wanting to immediately sell/trade weapons because they were sure that shadowy government figures were going to show up at their homes to confiscate their guns. The dealer would buy up the weapons at 1/3 of value and resell them at great profit.

StuU,
If it's paranoia it goes all the way back to the founders. If you're right it would mean that the founders really had no understanding of how governments or power really work at all. I don't buy it. Not for one minute.

The first battle(s) of the Revolutionary War, Lexington-Concord, came about because the locals found out that the Brit Army was sick of their crap and was going to shut them up for good by confiscating their weapons. The locals felt that that would have a negative impact on their future. Gun Control was the spark for the beginning of the Revolutionary War. You may think that the inhabitants of Lexington and Concord were paranoid, too.

Buy a gun? Why not spend the money on moving if you feel the area is becoming a danger for you and your family?

A gun won`t do you any good unless you know where the threat is coming from and have time...and one good slam to the head with a batt while your sleeping or walking in to or from your home...and you won`t know which way is up or down. And if they want to kill you..."hey buddy, can you spare a dime?" BAMM...your dead before your body hits the ground.

Ken

Badbeams,
Moving isn't always an option. If it is a viable option it can still take quite a bit of time to work out the details. There is also the much ridiculed notion that one can't run forever -- and that one has an obligation to resist evil as opposed to just running away from it. It's not very popular any more but it used to be. Many cultures and religions around the world believe this. In the States it used to be described as part of citizenship.

Some Buddhists, for example, believe that not resisting evil results in an accumulation of bad karma in the world. While I'm not a Buddhist I think that they have something there.

Well...if you are determined to stay...you should become active in city counsel meetings as a way to stop this. For the moment you can call code enforcment and give them a list of undrivable cars in your area...look for those parked backwards especialy...they often have expired tags. Look for any other code violations as well...lawns not being cut for example...a add on screen room that doesn`t show up on the Property Appraisers site (they probably never got permits to build these and are not being taxed on them (taboo).

Code enforcment will send someone out to checkout your claim/s....then they write a letter to the address giving them a set time (2 weeks where I live) to remove or correct the situation. After the alotted time they will fine them so much per day...$200 a day where I live. If the problem and fine are not paid they will place a lein on the property.

Many are rental properties and believe me...landlords/owner will be pissed...real pissed. I know...this happened to me...my mortgage company paid the fine/lein off and doubled my monthly payment for 9 month to pay them back.

Many low class neighbors will get tired of the "harrasment" and decide it just not their kind of area and move. Landlords will come to understand that they are responsible for the actions of thier tenants and write/enforce thier contracts better (as I did/do). And hopefully the area will begin to improve.

If you do move look for an area/development where deed restrictions are heavily enforced...it`s you best chance of living in an area thats unlikley to become a getto and having your investment in your home go poof.

Ken

The condo complex I live in did something similar. There's a high percentage of renters here, and a lot of them have been jackasses. So the condo association fought back by enforcing and mandating new codes - noises ordinances, parking restrictions, pool rules, etc., and making the owners directly responsible through heavy fines. A lot of people have since moved out or been evicted. The place still isn't perfect, but it is a lot better.

Some of the rules really aren't necessary or even all that fair. But since creeps don't generally like to follow rules, the rules (whatever they may be) seem to automatically filter a lot of them out.