Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discussion

By that I mean a light built from the ground up by modders, on a scale comparable to various modder LED light programs (Firefly, McLux, etc), i.e., starting with a custom machined body financed by 100-200 prepaid orders. It would solve all the stupid problems of Mag conversions and whatnot.

Fivemega's Fatmag is the only light I know that attempted something like this, but I don't know if it was ever sold as a complete TK light.

If you look at the current hotwire king, the Mag85 (based on a 3D Mag), it's a huge light with nine AA cells inside. That overdrives the 1185 bulb considerably so there's occasional instaflashes unless you let the cells rest for a while off the charger. And it's bigger than it needs to be. Mags are way oversized for the amount of stuff inside--several inches of the barrel are consumed by the switch. And the 3-to-D holders are somewhat longer than the AA cells they enclosed.

Look, by way of comparison, at the PT Surge, a bright (by normal standards) incan light with eight AA's that's less than half the size of the 9aa Mag85/MC85. A more powerful light might have to use a metal body and be a bit bigger, and should have charging contacts since it needs rechargeable cells anyway.

I guess I'm imagining a modder answer to the Tigerlight. It would use a custom machined body just a teensy bit bigger in diameter than a 2D Mag. It would have a small switch like the Surge. It would have charge contacts. It would use a stock Carley or similar reflector, to avoid the need to make a custom one. It would use a drop-in, shrink wrapped 8AA battery pack and have a WA G4 lamp holder so it could take a WA 01185 without melting. Overall size would be shorter than a 2C Mag, though thicker (maybe 1mm larger OD than a D Mag).

Another possible approach is a lantern-style configuration with a rectangular battery compartment. That could take one or two 7.2 volt camcorder battery packs with six 18650 lithium ion cells inside each pack. Those packs, and chargers for them, are available on Ebay pretty cheaply (search for NP-F960 battery).

Still another possibility is an 11 cell light (4+4+3 shrink wrapped NiMH pack) with an automotive bulb along the lines of the USL. The USL starts with a Mag 2D host, actually bores out the barrel to fit cells in, and replaces the switch to cram some cells around the switch assembly. Why not just start with a body made for the purpose. It will still look "stealth" to any non-flashaholic.

The amount of rigamorole needed to get the parts for a Mag85 together, and the number of people willing to do it, and the interest level in the USL, makes me think the time is right for a program like this.

paulr,

There is no doubt you are correct to some extent.

The USL is the first step to that modular light concept that has been (or soon will be) available.

When I first saw FiveMegas light I hoped it would fill the spot, but it simply is too large.

The problem is developing the right size for variable needs, and since the bulb options are so varied, that creates a need for multiple heads and reflectors.

I really would like to develop something along the Aleph line for incandescents, but it is hard simply because of those issues.

Any ideas?

Bill

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

I don't see a need for multiple heads and reflectors at first. That can come later. To first approximation, everyone wants the same thing, which is a 2D-sized light that uses "commodity" (i.e. unpotted) WA01185 or comparable bulbs and doesn't need weird parts from all over. Thus the popularity of the M6 and Tigerlight. Note that by "2D", I mean a normal 2D, not a Mag 2D which is the size of anyone else's idea of a 3D.

If it uses stock Carley reflectors, the user could choose between smooth (max throw) or textured (clean beam). I think that would be enough options at the beginning. It would be pretty much an M6 killer out of the gate. The main next option to make it more interesting would be M6R-like voltage regulation, rather than more lamps or reflectors.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Paulr,

If you recall, I had mused about some elements of your post back in my "Project Fury" posts. I think the single biggest hurdle to this endeavor is not the technology but rather the market. The S&B (small and bright) LED light market is at least an order of magnitude larger than that for the type of incan we are thinking about. That makes it much harder to disperse costs.

As for the design you described above, Jim Sexton's Tiger85/11 seems to be exactly what you want. Or am I missing something?

A truly high powered incan will never be smaller than a 6xAA body. In this form, the WA01111 is the bulb of choice delivering 900bLu. To get another 200 lumens, you need to go to 9xAA and the WA01185 and that's the end of the line for compact bulb/socket components. Then your'e into the much larger Osram bulbs.

At this point, there are probably 3 times the people who own or are building a Mag85/MC85 than are on the USL list. This suggests that for the cost and in spite of the complexity of securing al the parts, the Mag85/MC85 is a pretty popular option.

Let's keep this open and keep talking though. If there's going to be a modular hot wire platform, I'm interested.

Wilkey

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

paulr,

I understand EXACTLY where you're coming from, and I like your comments about the Mag2D being everyone else's 3D. Very true. The switch-core/pedestal section takes up a LOT of room.

And yes, the USL uses a bored-out Mag2D body. True. But as you point out, there are three AA cells under and around the rocker switch. Most every bit of space is utilized.

And it's exactly as Ginseng said: the hot-wire community is just not large enough to support something like the VIP or LH type of build. In small quantities, custom machininng something from scratch is very expensive and very difficult for the average joe. And did I mention that it's VERY expensive? Boring out a Mag2D on the other hand, is a piece of cake to do on a lathe. Even I can do it. Or is reasonably cheap to have done by a machinist in small batches. "Why not start with a body made for the purpose?" Simple. Money.

We have to work within our capabilities and the simple fact is that we do not have enough interest to support what you are talking about. In my opinion, anyway.

You can get away with doing expensive incan mods as long as you plan on getting interest equal to about 10-50 units. For example, if the only way I could have done the M6-R was to make it around a 100-200 unit run, I'd be filing for bankruptcy right now, or trying to borrow even more money to pay for advertising (which wouldn't save me anyway).

Hot Wire guys are a breed apart. We're a little nuts, very stuborn, and in the minority. That's just the way it is, and as LED's get better and better the situation is only going to get worse for us in this regard.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Ginseng,

As you will recall I mused...um, is js around?; about thinking-out-of-the-box in one of my 1st posts on CPF at this time last year. As most of you know by now (hehe, take a look at my comments on js's new M6-R build thread), I prefer smaller form factors. Given that the M*gChr WA1160 would only put out say 400 or so lumens on a stock batterypack, the smaller T1.5 size Carley 1499 385lm bulb can do the lower end of 'superbulb' output if slightly overdriven...in a small form factor.

You must consider other factors, like beam pattern/throw. All of the larger filament, save to some extent axially arranged filaments, superbulbs are limited to more huge hotspots unless used with those large reflectors. The real solution for getting down to smaller sizes is using the smallest point source of light, that being the plasma ball of an HID. But one area Ginseng is shy to explore is a protected setup of 18650 Li-Ion cells or other Li-Ion cells. When you limit yourself to AA NiMH or other NiMH, you are stuck with fewer options as far as size goes.

Economy of scale will dictate higher costs for any of these projects, LED's have a slight advantage there (and are unfortunately limited in output too). Ginseng had a modular concept when he envisioned the Aurora project. But costs got in the way, and that ended the experiment.

Regulation of the sort in the SF A2 or beginnings of the M6-R project are not particularly interesting to me. However, using a regulation circuit to better enable (you mentioned instaflashing, which I also constantly drone on with all the variations of batteries/chemistries available) one to overdrive a bulb is the main area of interest to me. If we know with reasonable certainty what a bulb can run at in a regulated overdrive situation, you could theoretically design such a regulation circuit for maximum overdrive with greatly reduced potential for instaflashing. Moreover, a bit more circuitry should get the capability of adjusting/tweeking the overdrive. One setting for max whiteness/lumens output but extremely short bulb life, one for longer bulb life. Mr. Bulk's Lionheart uses sophisticated electronics for user programability. Why not have such adjustability in a small form factor superbulb light, or any larger size D-cell superlight? Everyone has an idea of what is too large, D-cell is not my favored size of light.

Runtime, how much runtime is required? Since LED's or HID's are more efficient than majority of incandescent bulbs, you are limited in runtime, and everyone has differing wants as far as runtime.

Using 18650's with protection, you could use a M*gC body to drive any number of 'superbulbs'. BTW, bwaites Un-StealthLight (we disagree here on what constitutes a Stealth light).

The market for $250+ icandescents is fairly limited IMHO. Once you get up into this stratosphere, there are a few dozen here, a few dozen here that are willing to spend that much. Just curious, are you willing to spend $400 for a M6-R, is there a market for 200 of these incandescents?

I look to smaller form factors of M*gC cell or smaller, with more sophisticated electronics and Li_ion batteries, while much larger than D-cell 'superlights' can compete for the HID class 2k lumens or greater class of short run 'exhibition' lights. Smaller under 500lm 'superlights', then similar sized HID's, and perhaps 5 years from now, high-output LED's will replace them all. It seems to me, the trend with all electronics, is that they start out big and bulky, but then constantly get reduced in size as technology advances. Looking into my crystal ball, I expect that divergence trend, between smaller high-output 'superbulb' lights of near EDC usefulness and much larger HID or 100w+ incandescents of limited use, to progress over the next few years. Leaving D-cell lights to and their ilk, to historical/vintage status in just a few years. Kind of like the VCR/analog vinyl records being replaced by DVD/CD, and further down the line solid-state memory replacing DVD/CD. Children of Ginseng's daughter's generation; will think CD's are funky, old, moving parts, HUGE stone-age contraptions- in comparison to solid-state memory devices with no moving parts.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

The USL is a stealth light only in that it appears as one thing when it is, in reality, something entirely different.

If, as Udaman seems to imply, a stealth light is one that is very small or hidden, than you are limited in how bright you can go, not by the bulbs, but by the current battery technology.

You cannot SAFELY drive the Osram Megabulbs with any combination of Li Ion cells, they simply have to much current requirement.

As for the 1499, it is an interesting bulb, I have a couple dozen on order to play with and see if they can indeed make a "pocket stealth". Two Pilas in a slightly enlarge Surefire size tube MIGHT be a hot ticket to near M6 capability in an even smaller package. An axial version might even be cooler, or hotter, depending on your point of view.

The HID technology available today still REQUIRES big bodies, and if you want 3000 lumen outputs, you still can't get it in something the size of the USL. HID probably will be the wave of the future for ultimate output lights, it just isn't ready for primetime yet!

Right now my favorite form factors are all 2D or smaller, a I really would like the 2C or smaller package if there were SAFE battery tech available.

One of the modular concepts that is worth exploring is C or D size extenders that could be screwed together, in combination with different cell holders that allowed parallel and series combinations to run anything from 1499's to Osram mega bulbs, the sections, machined identically would mate with a head section with a bipin adaptor of some sort. Maybe the bipin adaptors could be swappable so you could have a G4, G6.35, etc.

Bill

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Also, bear in mind, the LED lights people are making are generally in the sub-$200 catagory.

Might be a factor, might not be, but it usually has a little to do with it.

Shane

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

[ QUOTE ]
udaman said:
Ginseng,

As you will recall I mused...um, is js around?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. For today only, for a reason I will leave to your imagination, I am reading your posts.

[ QUOTE ]
But one area Ginseng is shy to explore is a protected setup of 18650 Li-Ion cells or other Li-Ion cells. When you limit yourself to AA NiMH or other NiMH, you are stuck with fewer options as far as size goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ginseng did and is exploring this. Have you forgotten the Project Fury thread? We do NOT limit ourselves to NiMH; it just happens to work best in most high-output hot-wire situations. I'm so damn tired of your harping, udaman. You are always saying the same things over and over again to (as it turns out) the same people. Stop posting to our threads if you have nothing new to say. You're wasting our time. You don't know what you're talking about, and you have not produced a single mod, and yet you constantly want to play the expert. You giving us advice is like a five year-old trying to tell a heart surgeon what to do.

[ QUOTE ]
Regulation of the sort in the SF A2 or beginnings of the M6-R project are not particularly interesting to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. So you've mentioned. Several hundred times.

[ QUOTE ]
However, using a regulation circuit to better enable (you mentioned instaflashing, which I also constantly drone on with all the variations of batteries/chemistries available) one to overdrive a bulb is the main area of interest to me. If we know with reasonable certainty what a bulb can run at in a regulated overdrive situation, you could theoretically design such a regulation circuit for maximum overdrive with greatly reduced potential for instaflashing. Moreover, a bit more circuitry should get the capability of adjusting/tweeking the overdrive. One setting for max whiteness/lumens output but extremely short bulb life, one for longer bulb life. Mr. Bulk's Lionheart uses sophisticated electronics for user programability. Why not have such adjustability in a small form factor superbulb light, or any larger size D-cell superlight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you a complete moron? What is your mental malfunction, udaman? This is exactly what regulating an incandescent is for. It's what it does, unless the person setting it up doesn't know what he or she is doing. You asked about how I knew how to set the M6-R regulation. I set it as close to its highest voltage as I could get and still avoid blow-outs. And BTW, an LVR3I can be ordered with power levels set to your specifications. So you hit the button and cycle up to maximum overdrive. Hit again and go to 50 percent, then 75 then 83. (For example).

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious, are you willing to spend $400 for a M6-R, is there a market for 200 of these incandescents?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you actually ever READ what's in a thread or do you just spout off your usual nonsense regardless of what people say to you? I already said above that there is NOT a market for 200 M6-R's. Go read it. And the M6-R pack and charger will cost under $200, and then there's the cost of an M6. So your figure is off either way. It's either under $200 or over $500.

It's obvious to me that you are trying to **** us hotwire guys off, most especially me and Ginseng. Let me suggest to you that that is a bad policy and one that you really do NOT want to continue with.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Ugh,

Paulr, I really am sorry about the goings on with udaman. I've got him on ignore so I can't see what he posts but obviously it's enough to rankle almost everyone who reads his diatribes. I'm sorry because for whatever reason, he seems to dog Jim and me and wherever I post, there's a decent chance he'll come along and pollute the thread.

So, getting back on track. I really have explored small bodies and bright packages. I've even gone so far as to submit pack specifications to manufacturers of protected lithium ion packs. The cost of entry for any and every lithium ion pack that is designed for production is a minimum $6,200 charge for destructive, DOT shipping compliance testing. That's why that idea is DOA for me.

I've even taken a look at the Saphion chemistry from Valence and the intrinsic safety is a nice feature but the energy density and voltage stability of the available 18650 cells is somewhat underwhelming.

So, that leaves us with nimh or multistack 123s or Pilas.

Wilkey

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

The recahrgeable lithium issue is problematical because so far, no one has really looked at them for larger bodied lights and made them available in cylindrical formats for that use.

Startup cost is too high for hobbyists as Ginseng pointed out.

Existing NiMh technology is maturing fairly rapidly and these cells do have reasonably high energy densities, and chargers that are within reason costwise as well. The Radio Controlled world, where passion and enthusiasm is even higher than among flashaholics, has pushed this technology to fairly high levels fairly rapidly. There are durable cells available fairly cheaply.

Using existing technology is what causes the most difficulty, because the designs are always for other uses!

A modular design with an initial production run of 1000 pieces of tubing and the associated heads would be fairly expensive, but might work under the right circumstances.

The other production issue is reflectors, and Carley has a VERY difficult time providing those on a consistent basis. They promise and promise, but can't make it happen when they promise, at least to my experience!

Bill

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Hi, I'm just ducking in for a minute and then I'm gone for a week for a work assignment. Some remarks on recent posts:

1) I think you guys are underestimating the demand for a custom light. How many M6's do you think CPF'ers currently own? I'm sure it's hundreds. How many would likely buy them if they were a bit less expensive ($200 instead of $300) and were rechargeable? Some nontrivial number, I'd say.

2) I agree that 6AA or smaller isn't interesting for this type light. Interesting starts at 8AA. But as we see in the PT Surge, 8AA lights can be pretty small. A Surge is maybe half the size of a Mag2D.

3) I think interest in the USL will increase considerably when photos etc. go up. Also, the USL is an extreme light (5 minutes runtime?). Those of us (including me) interested in buying them are doing so out of pure madness. The notion of a bored out Mag body is scary (if thinner walls were strong enough, Mag would have made them thinner to begin with), it sounds like changing the batteries in the light will be quite difficult, etc.

4) JS's Tiger11 and Tiger85, while fantastic work on JS's part, also don't quite fill this description. They depend on special potted bulbs made personally by JS. The Tiger85 has serious danger of instaflash if the cells are freshly charged. They're being made and sold one at a time rather than in a big batch, so getting one isn't so easy. I guess these are the main issues with the TL's. An 8AA, WA01185 light would be almost as bright as a TL85, would be smaller, wouldn't normally instaflash, and would use semi-commodity AA NiMH cells (maybe even loose cells, in a standard 8AA cell holder that won't quite fit in a 2D barrel, eliminating the need for custom packs). Plus, it would have a hi-temperature bi-pin holder that would take a stock, unpotted WA01185 that WA is able to supply by the hundreds without a lot of fuss.

5) I didn't realize Carley reflectors weren't consistently available, oh well. Maybe there's some other suitable commodity reflector, like the Magcharger reflector. Or there could be another custom reflector run. Several Fivemega and Otakayama projects, plus the Alephs, have shown that's practical.

Basically I think there are a heck of a lot of CPF'ers out there like me, who sort of want to have M6's but don't feel like spending the cash, who would much more easily pull the trigger for this type of light.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

paulr,

You may be right. And if you're the one putting up the cash, I say we GO FOR IT! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I promise to buy one in that case. But it's too risky a venture for my taste. Even something small and manageable can easily run into $1000+ of investment.

The USL has more than 5 minutes of runtime. As the pack is cycled, runtime will increase, but I let bwaites tell the story. Well, actually, I will say this: non-consecutive minutes of runtime will be 10 minutes or better.

As for the boring out of the body, it's already VERY thick. Definitely more so than is necessary, and the amount of metal we had to take out was small. Not significant. Didn't even touch the threads. As for changing batteries, that depends on the final design, but there's no reason it couldn't be made very simple. It just means a more complicated design.

As for the TL mods, actually, with only four exceptions, they are being made and sold only in big batches. "Build runs" I call them. It's the only way I can do it. When a build run signup thread opens, as many people as want to can sign up.

Anyway, I was serious. If you want to put up the cash and organize this project, I promise to buy at least one of the finished product. Are you comforted by this? hehe.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

JS, 10 minutes from the USL is pretty impressive! I thought it would be less. Cool!

I also see someone mentioned in the other thread that the 1185 on 8xAA would be yellow, so I guess that's not such a great idea.

For the TL mods, I'd been going by the way they've been appearing on BST. You mean it's possible to buy a few dozen bulbs from you without creating a big backlog for you? Hmm.

Well, I'll give the TL85 some more thought. I have most of the parts of a Mag85 together, as I've mentioned, but am having misgivings about it.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Modder Hotwire Light:
Battery - in particular the irate lipoly 2200mah - 3.5 x 2.2 x 0.15 inch (88.9mm x 55.88m x 3.81mm) - Given the thin diameter, say we stack 4 of em for 15.24mm of thickness which is.. urm... still rather thin? Add casing and all that and it's around 1" thick? - $85~ plus shipping

fivemega head - ?? $100? plus shipping?

Custom made body to accept those lipoly cells. - ?? $$ time and effort?

LVR - $40~

Switch - rocker or button? magnetic? not constrained by circular body

Bulb - $20 with shipping?

Wire - $5 ??

I think it's gonna look like a smaller version of the Maxabeam.

Comments?

That! is a minimum of $250 as it is... And if nobody realizes it yet.. it's around the length of a Mag 1D if I'm not wrong... Or slightly shorter than your 2D plastic light.... Except for the 3" head, it should look... stealthy?

Battery cycle life would be a bit on the short side? I figure.. 100 cycles before the li poly expires? Runtime, assuming a 10 amps current, would be around 10 mins. That figures ~$0.80 per 10 min run.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

For a rectangular battery pack I think I'd use this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3872262167

it's a standard Sony-compatible camcorder pack, 7.2 volt 5400 mAH, six 18650's inside, fast chargers readily available, replacement packs readily available, some versions have a computer chip inside that let you constantly monitor the charge level. There are of course also smaller versions with 2 or 4 cells. Search for NP-F550 (2 cells) or NP-F750 (4 cells).

I would NOT want to use a $20 bulb. WA01160, 01185 etc. are all under $5.

I'd hope the head and reflector would cost much less than $100.

What I'm trying to avoid is using any non-commodity consumable parts (bulbs and batteries). A light body is just a hunk of aluminum that will be around after the modders who make them have gone on to greener pastures. But it's an orphan if it depends on a highly specialized bulb or battery assembly. A shrink wrapped NiMH pack is ok since lots of places can make those, but a generic camcorder battery that you can get in any video store is maybe even better. Loose NiMH cells is also good.

I do think a cylindrical body is fine. Maybe it doesn't have to be machined from aluminum bar. Perhaps it can be bought as tube stock. Steel might be ok instead of Al, for that matter.

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

Paul,

I don't think the pack can take much abuse.... at most 2C? Which brings us to 10.8 amps.... and I wonder what the voltage drop will be like. It is cheap though.

But then again, I'm thinking along the lines of 100 watt bulbs... which from your previous post... seems not to be the case...

2 of your above mentioned backs with a regulator should make for a very long running 01185... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

paulr,

When there is a build run open you could signup for a Tiger85 batterypack or two or three (etc) and twelve or more WA1185 ring-potted lamps, and this would not create a "backlog" for me, because a build-run ALREADY IS a huge backlog /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But at that time--and that time only--I'm psyched up and ready for it, and I can assembly line things as much as is possible, and I can order lamps and relfectors and batteries in large quantities and save on pricing and shipping. So it's all good.

BUT, you certainly could not get two dozen WA1185 ring-potted lamps from me right now. I'd say "Sorry, no way. No can do."

So does that clear things up?

Re: Is it time for a modder hotwire light? Discus

If you could find an 18mm dia x approx 130 - 150mm long size pack that can support a nominal 12 V, that would make for a design that is interesting for both LED and perhaps incan.

This might relieve some of the pressure to push as many amps from the pack.