Why are there few regulated incans?

The A2 and.....I can't think of any others. Is it because incans
are more difficult to regulate...ie they're more sensitive to current/
voltage variations and therefore the regulation is more difficult?

I don't know about anyone else but I'd rather have 40 minutes of bright
regulated incan than 120 minutes of 2/3 yellow dimming light.

What's the deal?

MB

I'd love to know this also. I've seen in past threads a .pdf of their (SureFire) 2002, or maybe it was 2003 catalog and they did plan at least two more. Some say there's no demand, but I know I'd likem more. Especially something small and bright like the TL-3.

I believe a member is making/has made a battery pack (rechargeable) for the M6 that does soft start and or regulation. Demand for that seems high. It piqued my interest!

Maybe it's just something manufacturers see as be more relevant to LEDs, but why? Is it that higher voltage is more difficult? Patent/copywright issues with the original inventor of regulation or whomever holds the patent? I'd love to know, and more importantly see more of them!

I am with ya!

I would love to have a regulated 4AA light. Heck, if the A2 can get ~50 minutes of light out of 1300mah bats, then a regulated 4AA should be able to get 1.5-2x that on 2500mah alkies, right?

Design it to use PR bulbs (Magnum-Star?) or nicely designed bi-pin xenon-halogens (stored in tailcap?).

How about a light about the size of a UK4AA, textured reflector, regulated, 4AA, inexpensive bi-pin with decent life, spare inside the light somewhere.

1.5 hour flat runtime. Cheap, easy to find bats.

Dare to dream.

Bob

I'll engage in some complete speculation here.

It seems to me that numbers and quirky single facts sell products. If you have a light with 2 more candlepower than some other light, more people will buy the higher number. Same with hours of runtime. Things that are hard to "encapsulate" with language don't seem to figure in to people's purchases.

Ask which is brighter, the SureFire 6P or the A2, and most people will reply the 6P, even though it is only brighter for about 10 minutes. Likewise with runtime, even though you can't really use the last minutes of the 6P beam.

From the point of view of a consumer, who has a catalog or web site with some numbers in hand, it is extremely hard to defeat a regulated LED with a regulated incan. Bulb life. Impact resistance. Runtime. Novelty of new technology. You just can't articulate the advantages about a regulated incan over a regulated LED to a mass of consumers.

I suspect it is more difficult technically to regulate an incan too.

So it seems to me that if you are going to develop and market a regulated light, you will make that light an LED.

Scott

How about a light about the size of a UK4AA,

Click to expand...

If you use the UK4AA with Lithium AA or NiMH batteries the much flatter discharge curve of these compared to alkalines obviates the need for regulation.

OK. First of all, regulating an incan is actually EASIER than regulating an LED for two reasons: 1. voltage regulation is easier to implement than current regulation, and 2. the output need not be smoothed to DC because the thermal mass of the filament will do the smoothing for you. Just like in your house lights, which are driven by a voltage which alternates 60 times per second, the filament emits light as long as it is hot, whether or not current is flowing. So provided that the off times are small compared to the time it takes for the filament to cool down, you don't notice it, and all that counts is the average power delivered to the filament.

So, that won't help answer the question of why there are so few regulated incans. The simple answer is that most companies think that there isn't a market for such a thing, nor a need for one, and the very few companies which DO think there is a market for such a thing (SureFire) are thinking that there is an even LARGER market for HID and LED lights run from Li-ion batteries. They figure why waste R&D money on a moribund technology?

Plus, as pointed out by beezaur, even trying to EXPLAIN regulation to the average consumer is an uphill battle, and most people shop for flashlights by the numbers, and regulating a light would actually make the numbers worse, lowering either the runtime or the output or both (while actually increasing the product of lumens x minutes due to the filament always running at its most efficient). Manufacturers like to cheat the numbers as much as possible to make people think that a mini-Mag is as bright as a SL Scorpion (SureFire is the gleaming exception to this industry policy of deceit, but it's hard to fault companies for doing it because everyone else is doing it and if they didn't they would lose sales--SureFire is ultra-high end, and thus can count on a more educated consumer).

The bottom line is, I think, that incans really don't NEED to be regulated, and that manufacturers don't believe that the cost and trouble are worth it.

And BTW, the M6-R pack is regulated, rechargable and has soft-start and end of cycle warning flashes. It keeps the output constant for 19+ minutes at the same level as fresh 123's (no dimming).

Actually, the 6P probably isn't brighter than the A2 at the start, or if it is, it is so minimal that you can't see it.

Mcgizmo did some testing with an A2 and E2, and there was only 3 lumens difference at the outset!

Though the A2 is rated at 50 lumens, it was producing 79, if I remember the numbers correctly, and the E2 was producing 82.

The 6P produces similar numbers, so there is probably enough lamp to lamp difference to make it up.

Bill

[QUOTE
The bottom line is, I think, that incans really don't NEED to be regulated, and that manufacturers don't believe that the cost and trouble are worth it.
[/QUOTE]

Well...I don't know. Talk to anyone who owns an A2 and they'll tell you
how superior the regulated incan output is to the E2e etc. I believe that
Size 15 (Al?) has even stated that because of the soft start and steady
sate he's gone more than-something like 45 sets IIRC- of batts on a single lamp!
This is significant when you consider the price of SF and other high qual
Xenon/halogen lamps not to mention what it might do for lamp reliability.

No one is expecting Eveready to regulate those 2 for a dollar (*but proudly
made in America ~ ) plastic lights. There are enough quality manufacturers
out there who market to flashaholics to whom this would matter. LEO would be one that would come to mind.

Anyway...it's interesting to say the least.


MB

I use to think regulated lights were in the domain of LED's only, however i think it will be great for light makers to have regulated incans as well. There is always the need for the application of incans, such as fog, rain etc, so why not make more regulated incans?

I wish we could get a regulated E2e.

I don't see the need or point.

Some people, especially here, are very picky about their beam from their flashlight. I just don't see what the good folks are talking about.

I've found lithium cells to hold their charge very well during their runtime, especially when compared to Alkaline cells. When they start dimming, I replace them, this is my low battery indicator. This seems really simple, and reliable, as I vew both batteries and bulbs as consumable items. I also like the simplicity and relatively low cost of most of my surefire incandescent lights.

For me, having a soft start that prolongs the bulb life a little is not going to sell me on a regulated light, as I drop, bang, whack or flat out destroy the bulb before they burn out on me.

If you are going to have a 200-300 dollar flashlight that uses 30 dollar bulbs, getting a few extra minutes of battery life isn't going to do it for me, even when you are running brighter lamps at 9-20 bucks an hour for power cells.

mykall said:

Well...I don't know. Talk to anyone who owns an A2 and they'll tell you
how superior the regulated incan output is to the E2e etc. I believe that
Size 15 (Al?) has even stated that because of the soft start and steady
sate he's gone more than-something like 45 sets IIRC- of batts on a single lamp!
This is significant when you consider the price of SF and other high qual
Xenon/halogen lamps not to mention what it might do for lamp reliability.

No one is expecting Eveready to regulate those 2 for a dollar (*but proudly
made in America ~ ) plastic lights. There are enough quality manufacturers
out there who market to flashaholics to whom this would matter. LEO would be one that would come to mind.

Anyway...it's interesting to say the least.


MB

Click to expand...

Yup, if you only want 1 incand that fits for edc, A2 is the only choice. It is the only SF that I bought 2.

But the problem is, the demand for a regulated incand is quite little. In my old man's world, he only knows that LED is better cos it is white. I gave him a KL1+FB1 but he prefers his "XNOVA" cos the KL1 is far too expensive for him to consider using it. I show him my M6 and he ask me why paying $$$ for such a yellow light but not a white one.... See? the point is selling price and LED.

LED never need a replacememt, LED has 100000 hours life..............these are uaually seen on the package of flashlights, and thats where my dad's flashlight knowledge are from.(But you won't be told that you can't replace a LED unitl it fails to work one day, and anything could happen will happen.) The demand of LED is getting more and more.

We are all flashaholic here, and we know the advantage of different flashlights. But what is actually feeding the many many flashlight manufacturers are the public. The demand for LED lights is growing rapidly, so why invest $$ in R&D on an incand? Of cos, I'd like to see more regulaterd incand, but we can't beat the trend.....

FredM said:

I wish we could get a regulated E2e.

Click to expand...

You can, it's called the A2.

Both are 2 cell lights. Runtime is about the same for each. Brightness is better with the A2.

Don't forget the regulated drop-in for any 2d light with pr bulb. I still have 2 of them and like them a lot. The designer is Willie Hunt, the designer of the A2's circuit.

Pila lights are regulated. Luv my GL3. I only wish it give me some sort of warning before shutting off. But again, that's why I carry 2 backup lights.

... did I just say "I carry 2 backup lights"? :shakehead: and that's coming from someone who a year ago didn't even EDC a light... [/highjack]

Now that I've had a taste for regulated incans, I've become spoiled. I don't like the sickly yellow look of a dimming incandescent. :nana:

Give me a regulated E2e, I'll sell almost any lights I have to have one, simple as that.

Nick

The funny thing is that incandescents benefit more from a constant power than LEDs, as their light outputs varies extremly with voltage.

On the other hand, it is possible to make incadescents for almost any voltage, so it is quite easy to make them fit to a specific number of cells.

Look at Willie Hunt's LVR, which was/is quite successfull and is built into a couple of lights (Black Diamond for example).
It offers unbeatable efficiency (very close to 100%), soft start and other features. And is very small.
Mass produced it could be quite inexpensive, no inductors involved.

PeLu,

Yes. I tend to agree with you, and the LVR type PWM regulator can be quite inexpensive if mass produced . . . $3 each perhaps for 10,000.

greenLED,

Pila lights are not regulated. The cells have protection circuitry on them, yes, but the voltage delivered to the load varies over the run.

Emilion, you say:

js said:

The bottom line is, I think, that incans really don't NEED to be regulated, and that manufacturers don't believe that the cost and trouble are worth it.

Emilion said:

Well...I don't know. Talk to anyone who owns an A2 and they'll tell you
how superior the regulated incan output is to the E2e etc. I believe that
Size 15 (Al?) has even stated that because of the soft start and steady
sate he's gone more than-something like 45 sets IIRC- of batts on a single lamp!
This is significant when you consider the price of SF and other high qual
Xenon/halogen lamps not to mention what it might do for lamp reliability.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

This seems to me to be quite a tangential post; you are very much preaching to the choir! I am an energetic and vocal proponent of regulated incans! I am the guy who turned the SF M6 into a regulated rechargable light.

If you read what I wrote you will see that I said that incans didn't need to be regulated. I never said that the benefits of regulation do not outweigh the costs or difficulties. In my mind, it is TOTALLY worth it. Yes. But, the fact is that you can get away without it and still have a pretty darn good illumination tool. Look at what UVvis says:

UVvus said:

I don't see the need or point.

Some people, especially here, are very picky about their beam from their flashlight. I just don't see what the good folks are talking about.

I've found lithium cells to hold their charge very well during their runtime, especially when compared to Alkaline cells. When they start dimming, I replace them, this is my low battery indicator. This seems really simple, and reliable, as I vew both batteries and bulbs as consumable items. I also like the simplicity and relatively low cost of most of my surefire incandescent lights.

For me, having a soft start that prolongs the bulb life a little is not going to sell me on a regulated light, as I drop, bang, whack or flat out destroy the bulb before they burn out on me.

If you are going to have a 200-300 dollar flashlight that uses 30 dollar bulbs, getting a few extra minutes of battery life isn't going to do it for me, even when you are running brighter lamps at 9-20 bucks an hour for power cells.

Click to expand...

And beieve me, he is in the vast majority here if you include the entire flashlight market and not just the CPF favored niches. Convincing a flashlight manufacturer that a regulated incan is a good idea and that people will pay for it is a really hard sell. Almost all of them are out to make money, and if they can make the most money selling a $3 plastic light, that's what they're interested in. Quality is hard to acheive and it's a risky venture and involves a lot of investment up front and most of the time, too few people appreciate it.

Now, I personally know that a regulated incan, done right, would have a market and would sell and would make a good business investment, especially if you took the time to educate your customers with the right advertising and documentation. But that's me, and most business owners would disagree.

So again, I said that they believe that there isn't a market for regulated incans, not that they were correct in this belief.

A2 vs E2e? Yes, I think the E2e dims way too fast and that the output leaves everything to be desired. The A2 on the other hand has the long pocket clip, two stage twist tailcap, and a brilliantly beautiful white beam for the vast majority of its runtime. The E2e's brilliance falls off around 10 minutes into its runtime.

The uninitiated do not understand regulation, especially the vast majority of the flashlight buying crowd. Even the initiated do not COMPLETELY understand the impact of regulation until they hold one - yes, I'm talking about myself. I had known about the A2 for months, and I knew it was regulated. But just how beautiful it was - that would have to wait till I received mine. Words.. or even beamshots, would not have captured what it can do.

And it is very hard to quantify this to Joe Q Public who is buying their $3 flashlight.

For a long time, I was never paying attention, and did not know the A2 was regulated. Even for Surefire, I always thought the price difference was a lot. All the recent talk about the A2 made me stop and re-evaluate the light. Since that time, I have bought two.