Tactical Flashlights becoming stale?

[Crenshaw]

Even under stress if the user pressed harder than he wanted and got the full beam, it would still be light that can just as effectively be used. Whether it's flood or a little more throw.

My logic is that when you need low light, it isnt high stress. High tension maybe, but not high stress.

My Main concern is that it might take TOO much effort to press that hard....i know with my L1 is tooka sustained effort to keep it on high

Crenshaw

 

[Search]

Never trained with any Military Operators. I know they clear buildings very similarly, with the exception they have grenades. In LE there isn't much sneaking up on a target like you have in Military operations.

Crenshaw--

I get what your saying. Yes, I too hope it's not very stiff. It would have some effect on aiming when your hand is straining also.

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

I want to try that UI in Simunition training to get some kind of feel for it. Not the same stress, but those things hurt none the less and I don't like getting shot.QUOTE]

They do sting a tad, don't they? And I had a heavy BDU shirt on.

Mental process without stress:
1. Percieve situation
2. Identify alternatives
3. Pick alternative
4. React

With stess:
1. Percieve situation
2. React

Now, let's talk heart rate:
60-80 bpm is normal resting heart rate
115-145 bpm is your optimal survival and combat performance level for complex motor skills and reaction time.
145+ and those complex motor skills start to deteriorate
175+ and you hit autonomic arousal where you can't even think.

I want push on, release off. That's it for the most of the situations I find myself in. 99% of the environments I am in when I need a tactical light, are indoors and even the ones outside generally do not exceed 25 yards. This is why I had Scott (Milkyspit) make the Roomsweeper for me. For my uses, this is the perfect light.

Remember, tactical comes from tactic, which simply means having a plan. Or from the Greek word taktike which means "arrange". Every situation and encounter is different. I wouldn't expect a Border Patrol agent out in the desert to even consider the Roomsweeper as tactical because it does not fit with the environment and situations that he deals with most of the time. Our department trains with firearms in the 15 yard and closer range while PB trains out to 50 yards.

My point simply being, every "tactical" situation is different, and simply calling a light, or any tool "tactical" does not mean it will fit with your "tactics" or training.

Off soapbox.

 

[AbnInfantry]

A patrol isnt considered a tac situation.

In your opinion, a recon or combat patrol during wartime doesn't constitute a "tac situation"? Incredible, simply incredible.

"Tactical: of or relating to combat tactics; of or occurring at the battlefront; using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront." — Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

Checking a map under low light I wouldn't really call "tactical" situation

If I were a cop in Australia reading a city map, I'd agree. The example I gave of a night patrol against elements of the 33rd NVA Regiment, I humbly submit was a "tactical situation" to any reasonably objective human being.

Most people on this board wont ever get into a tactical sitation.

Which has nothing to do with the point I was making.

These days NVG is used as opposed to crawling under a poncho, red filtered flashlights are used, mainly to signal.

I had first generation NVG in Vietnam, second gen at Ranger School in 1977 and third gen the last time I was recalled to active duty in the 1990s thanks to another needless, undeclared war. The technique which you regard as obsolete was still being taught in the Army the last time I checked. The widespread use of GPS equipment doesn't mean soldiers should no longer know how to use a compass.

Times have changed since you were in vietnam.

No kidding? :duh2: A few years ago, one of my brothers-in-law was a platoon sergeant in Iraq and used the technique I mentioned (the one you think is obsolete). His National Guard unit wasn't fully equipped with night vision gear.

If you want to insist the word "tactical" only applies to law enforcement, that's up to you. I was sworn in as a federal agent two years after I resigned my RA commission and never entertained such a ludicrous notion.

 

[TMedina]

I submit there is tactical and then there is tactical - call it "hot" tactical and "cold" tactical if it helps make the distinction.

Super-high lumen output light used to blind suspects (or hostiles) during a traffic stop or checkpoint in a potentially "hot" tactical scenario is not the same low, red light you want for a "cold" tactical situation - reading a map, crawling out from under a poncho and so on.

In both situations, care and thought are given to the tactical situation but each has different needs to be addressed.

On the subject of multi-function lights, I wouldn't want a flashlight that did both because, with respect to all the experience in this thread, people do stupid things in moments of extreme stress. What setting you left your light on right before the bullets started flying is probably the furthest thing on your mind. Especially if the bullets are flying at you.

-Trevor

 

[FLT MEDIC]

With many tactical lights now easily pumping out over 200+ lumens, the stock Gladius made only 80 on 2xCR123 cells when it came out. Nowadays, even some single cell lights can beat that. You can improve things with a P4 upgrade, but the Gladius suffered from other issues.

The Gladius is designed for close quarters confrontations so they still don't see the need to upgrade it to a P4 like Insight did with their H2X Typhoon II.

Modded my Gladius to an R2 so it's much brighter and throws farther than both my single mode and 5 mode R2 drop ins rated from 117 to 250 lumens and there's no visible difference with other 200+ lumens tactical lights so far. One can now choose to have only 80 lumens on a stock Gladius, get 120 to 170 lumens on an H2X Typhoon II or mod it to an R2 to get 200+ lumens.

Several months to drain the batteries should not be a problem on tactical lights because one uses it daily and consequently one has to charge them frequently. There is also a low voltage warning to warn the user almost an hour before the light becomes too dim. The light only goes off completely if one uses protected RCR123As.

The Gladius tailcaps get loose if the user forgets to align the tailcap with the groove/canal in the body. One can do this even with one's eyes closed if the user follows the manual. That warning is also very clear in the manual and it's the most committed user error so no wonder why there are many loose tailcaps among new owners.

When weapon mounted, in a closed flap vest holster or pants pocket it has never changed modes for our team. Its Mod-U-Lok holster works great if you prefer to carry it that way. Any generic closed flap holster will not be able to change its modes because there's a detent and a quarter turn needed for each selector ring position or mode.

Even in the lock out or off mode, one can easily use only one's thumb to select the desired mode without changing your grip in both hands or change any other finger's position.

The grip-ring being too narrow, the tailcap felt cheap, etc. are not design flaws of the Gladius, long time users like it as it is or modify it just like any other tactical light. One can order tailcaps from a Gladius dealer and a CPFer even sold tailcaps in this forum in the past.

If one has to refer to the manual just to swap out the cells, one hasn't used the Gladius long enough, not to mention practicing to change batteries in complete darkness.

Force on force training will teach the user when to use the different modes of the Gladius. Use the right mode and technique for the situation.

Most users who don't like the Gladius don't like multimodes and haven't trained or practiced enough with it. If the Gladius is still too complicated, by all means choose something simpler. Safety first, for you and your team mates.

 

[Search]

What I'm fixing to say is going to have some exceptions and is might be slightly wrong. I am here to discuss this idea to possibly learn though. However, it's the best way I can differintiate tactical from non tactical in BOTH Law Enforcement and Military.

A General situation in the field is what is occuring before one encounters a situation where deadly force is what you are preparing for.

This could be an officer perfoming a routine traffic stop where nothing goes wrong or going to a loud music call. This could be a soldier standing in a city making sure nothing wrong happens or working a road block. The Military is harde to find a general situaion as it is what it is. In the Police world I would just define it as anything you do where you don't think everything is going to hit the fan or before it does. If that makes any sense.

A Tactical situation in the field is when you are facing an opposing threat or enemy when using deadly force is what you are preparing for. If that makes any sense.

It could also include preparing, in the field, to engage an enemy. Hence trying to covertly set yourself into a position to better engage a threat OR to thrwart a possible threat.

This could be the perimeter officers at a SWAT raid or Recon trying to covertly get to a position. This also means the necessary use of a light with a lower mode to keep a low profile.

In the Police world this isn't often, in the Military world it is almost always.

General duties might not dictate having a tactical flashlgiht. However, one cannot be prepared to go from general duties to tactical duties in a split second.

This is why it might be beneficial to have a selector ring or a light thats bezel can be twisted for a lower mode.

It's easiest to say that a tactical light might face different "tactical" challenges. It will have to adapt. If you encounter a situation where you are using a low light to keep off the enemy radar but are surprised by a threat you could not plan for, you might not have time to put that light up and grab a primary tactical light.

After this thread I'm personally becoming more drawn to think more on a light with these properties. Obviously two lights is one, but one light that can be quickly set to another mode that WILL NOT interfere with low-light tactics has a place as long as it's reliability is PROVEN.

We all know a single mode, forward clickie or twistie light is tactical as long as it's reliable. We cannot say that a Marine in Recon Force moving to a location at night with a low light isn't tactical. He would need a light that allows him to move with a lower signature, but be able to produce a brighter light for combat if he needs to. So what does he prepare with? I find a slector ring or twisting bezel light very accomplished at this.

What are yall's thoughts? I think this thread is opening many minds, including my own.

(This computer has no spell check as I'm using IE)

 

[SureAddicted]

In your opinion, a recon or combat patrol during wartime doesn't constitute a "tac situation"? Incredible, simply incredible.

"Tactical: of or relating to combat tactics; of or occurring at the battlefront; using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront." — Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.



If I were a cop in Australia reading a city map, I'd agree. The example I gave of a night patrol against elements of the 33rd NVA Regiment, I humbly submit was a "tactical situation" to any reasonably objective human being.



Which has nothing to do with the point I was making.



I had first generation NVG in Vietnam, second gen at Ranger School in 1977 and third gen the last time I was recalled to active duty in the 1990s thanks to another needless, undeclared war. The technique which you regard as obsolete was still being taught in the Army the last time I checked. The widespread use of GPS equipment doesn't mean soldiers should no longer know how to use a compass.



No kidding? :duh2: A few years ago, one of my brothers-in-law was a platoon sergeant in Iraq and used the technique I mentioned (the one you think is obsolete). His National Guard unit wasn't fully equipped with night vision gear.

If you want to insist the word "tactical" only applies to law enforcement, that's up to you. I was sworn in as a federal agent two years after I resigned my RA commission and never entertained such a ludicrous notion.

AbnInfantry, I'm not insisting anything, if anything the elite tac soldiers are more tac orientated than their LE counterpart. I'm referring to situations rather than mil vs LE, but we are straying off topic.

 

[baterija]

Those who carry a gun in any capacity--even concealed carry permit--shouldn't bother with the word "tactical" but instead think in terms of "what works for me."

:twothumbs
Target, target. That is the key point. If you follow all the accepted TTP (tactics, techniques, and procedures) for tactical use of lights and it doesn't work it's still a bad call with your own butt on the line. Conventional wisdom and established TTP are a jumping of point for learning and thinking. They are not the end of the discussion but merely the opening statement.

"One mind, any weapon." - Hunter B. Armstrong

 

[Patriot]

this is why i like the L1 (L2/L1/McGizmo PDs) UI. Lightly press for on, mash it all the way down for full.

Crenshaw

I'm a big fan of single mode "tactical" lights since I'm of the same general opinion as Robocop, that when you need light, you just need a lot of it and for it to be going in the right direction. I suspect that weapon lights from the leading manufacturers are designed as single mode, without "fluff" built in, primarily for this reason.

What I really like about the design of L1, L2, and PD's UI is that they operate just like a one mode light in emergency situations. In other words, if you want light you just hammer the button and there it is. It takes a conscious effort in the form of a half press to get reduced output. Many people who have operated my L1 or L2 don't even realize that it has a low mode because they press right past it to high. I think this is perhaps the best tactical UI ever dreamed up. It generally won't satisfy the techno geeks but works perfectly as the working person's light. By working person, I mean LEO's, Military, CCW holders, security, factory and industrial work, etc.

One thing that I don't see discussed very often is the possibility of a light being so complicated that only the owner can use it effectively. I think Lightraven's two story accounts demonstrate how impossible otherwise simple tasks become under pressure, including even minor pressure, as in the example of wanting to remain hidden to avoid detection. I'm of the belief that if we're going to carry a light for emergency situations, whether that be tactical or just simply urban survival, a layperson ought to be able to pick it up off the ground and be able to use it to reasonable effect. A Novatac 120P set to a low primary mode, for instance, would be nearly useless to anyone but the primary operator. Even a Fenix sequenced to come on in low mode first could throw the amateur user for a loop. That's another reason why I 'm generally not a fan of complicated UI's for general carry. My rule is that if my girlfriend or mom can use it without any prior training, then it's a good emergency light.

As a wrap up and a bit closer to the original thread topic, I don't think that in general "tactical" flashlights are becoming stale at all, if what you mean is that we're undesirably limited on choices. We have more choices now than we've ever had during any time in the past. Yes, we'll always be up against a technology wall with regards to LED's and power supplies, right now I'm speaking of batteries of course but I think we'll continue to have ever increasing choices when it comes to picking a tactical light. Currently we have a limited but growing number of seclections in quad die lights and soon we'll have a new generation of single die Cree emitters available to us. From that aspect I don't think this category is stale by a long shot.

 

[KiwiMark]

I'm a big fan of single mode "tactical" lights since I'm of the same general opinion as Robocop, that when you need light, you just need a lot of it and for it to be going in the right direction. I suspect that weapon lights from the leading manufacturers are designed as single mode, without "fluff" built in, primarily for this reason.

That's another reason why I 'm generally not a fan of complicated UI's for general carry. My rule is that if my girlfriend or mom can use it without any prior training, then it's a good emergency light.

I would suggest that my 2 tactical lights (Jet-IIIM & M20Premium) have nice options but they would be fine to hand to another person who could then use either one without any instruction more than "push the button on the bottom". I would hand over the Jet-IIIM with the head tightened and not mention that the head could be loosened to access a custom mode, keep it simple and just hand it over. I would also hand over the Olight M20 with the head tight on high mode and also only say "push the button on the bottom".

I know how the program the custom mode on my Jet-IIIM to do whatever I want, but that doesn't mean that the light cannot be used as a single mode light or handed over to another person to use as an incredibly simple torch. My Jet-I Pro2 is not as good to give to someone else - the first mode is minimum output and if someone half presses the button too much they could put it into programing mode - this is not a good tactical torch or a good choice to hand over to someone else. But the multi-mode complexities on the non-tactical torches don't mean that the multi-mode tactical torches aren't simple for anyone to use.

I think the availability of other modes increases the versatility of the torch and opens up options like lower light level with much longer run time or strobe modes or ultra low minimum output for reading a map without giving away your location to everyone nearby. Some of us can see the benefit of a torch that can be used for more than one thing. Imagine if you were carrying a single mode tactical torch and a single mode low output torch for other duties like for map reading. Now imagine if the low output torch dies and you need to read a map. It would be handy if the tactical torch had a way of producing a very low output so you could check the map without giving away your location.

I EDC 3 multi-mode lights but my Olight Ti Infinitum has super simple operation - press forward clickie switch on the tailcap and there is light. My Fenix is also simple - tighten the head and the light comes on, loosen it and it goes off. Just because they can do more it doesn't mean that they are hard to use for the simple task of producing light.

Could anyone give a reasonable answer to this question: In what way is the Jetbeam Jet-IIIM or the Olight M20 more complicated to use than a single mode light? Since the single mode light only has high then lets compare it to the Jet-IIIM with the head tightened and the M20 set to high and the head currently tight.

 

[Search]

Could anyone give a reasonable answer to this question: In what way is the Jetbeam Jet-IIIM or the Olight M20 more complicated to use than a single mode light? Since the single mode light only has high then lets compare it to the Jet-IIIM with the head tightened and the M20 set to high and the head currently tight.

Having the light cycle modes while hitting the tailcap is the problem.

Having the light only come on and off at a level that depends on how the head or selector ring is twisted is not a problem.

As long as the extra's (the fact that they are still multi-modes, which takes away from the proven reliablity of complete single modes.) are still as reliable as 100% single modes, then they are still tactical.

As long as the end user knows when and when not to change modes, he or she will be able to perform the task at hand. Different situations require different tactics, having a light that can adapt, by means of light output, that can withstand any abuse and will still work, is a good thing to have.

 

[Patriot]

I think the availability of other modes increases the versatility of the torch and opens up options like lower light level with much longer run time or strobe modes or ultra low minimum output for reading a map without giving away your location to everyone nearby. Some of us can see the benefit of a torch that can be used for more than one thing. Imagine if you were carrying a single mode tactical torch and a single mode low output torch for other duties like for map reading. Now imagine if the low output torch dies and you need to read a map. It would be handy if the tactical torch had a way of producing a very low output so you could check the map without giving away your location.

I EDC 3 multi-mode lights but my Olight Ti Infinitum has super simple operation - press forward clickie switch on the tailcap and there is light. My Fenix is also simple - tighten the head and the light comes on, loosen it and it goes off. Just because they can do more it doesn't mean that they are hard to use for the simple task of producing light.

Could anyone give a reasonable answer to this question: In what way is the Jetbeam Jet-IIIM or the Olight M20 more complicated to use than a single mode light? Since the single mode light only has high then lets compare it to the Jet-IIIM with the head tightened and the M20 set to high and the head currently tight.

I think the way you split up my original previous post during the quoting process makes me suspect that you might have taken it out of context and as a result, may have missed my point. I'm not sure if that's the case or not and I'm guessing it was just an error made when you tried to shorten it. No biggie though.

To answer your question, I think many CPFers take for granted that these lights are "super simple" to operate when in fact they're not intuitive for people outside of the scene. While Search doesn't take issue with rotating head clickies, I still do, which I gave the reason for in my Fenix example in my prior post. I'll elaborate here though. If the head is already turned to turbo mode then it's not a problem. If the head is turned to normal mode and the next setting sequence is going to be "low" then that could be a big problem. I person picks up the light because it's needed and they get 12 lumens from the P3D for example. This is so low in a typical city that the user may not even realize that the light actually turned on if they were under stress. My dad owns a few pocket lights which I've gifted him. I'd say he isn't a flashlight noob but I doubt he'd figure out my P3D in five minutes even if I told him there were five modes. He just wouldn't know that the head turned.

You probably read Lightraven's testimony in which he couldn't get his M6 to turn on. It ended up being nothing more than a locked out tailcap on his single mode light. Remember that he's a seasoned LEO and big time flashaholic yet he's running behind a suspect in the dark, slightly panicked because his light won't switch on. Ok, you're probably thinking, "yeah, but the lights I'm speaking of still turn on no matter what." True, but what if he had been carrying a Fenix instead and it came on at 12 lumens. That could amost be more confusing than in the case of no light at all.

In any case, the point is, if you add cycling modes and turning heads, the chances of something going wrong are increased whether it be user error or mechanical failure. That said, a pocket full of multi-function lights might be just fine for most people and perhaps you fall into that category. For a few people in special application groups, they don't make sense. Take it from Robocop and Lightraven, at least two professionals who operate in stressful environments. They unshamfully share their first hand knowledge of the most simple things not going as expected under stress. I suppose in a way this highlights the difference between what a "tactical" light means to a regular user vs. what a tactical light means to a someone who regularly places their life on the line.


P.S. Just so you know, I like multi-mode lights and own dozens of them which often get carried as task lights or back-ups. When it comes to my primary light I like to carry simple one or two stage types.



EDIT: I had previously gotten RoboCop's and Lightraven's story mixed up. It has been changed to now say "Lightraven"

 

[Search]

To answer your question, I think many CPFers take for granted that these lights are "super simple" to operate when in fact they're not intuitive for people outside of the scene. While Search doesn't take issue with rotating head clickies, I still do, which I gave the reason for in my Fenix example in my prior post. I'll elaborate here though. If the head is already turned to turbo mode then it's not a problem. If the head is turned to normal mode and the next setting sequence is going to be "low" then that could be a big problem. I person picks up the light because it's needed and they get 12 lumens from the P3D for example. This is so low in a typical city that the user may not even realize that the light actually turned on if they were under stress. My dad owns a few pocket lights which I've gifted him. I'd say he isn't a flashlight noob but I doubt he'd figure out my P3D in five minutes even if I told him there were five modes. He just would know that the head turned.

When I said multi-mode by twisting the bezel, it was like the TK10 not a P3D.

The kind where you have a high and low but tightened or loosened it was still a single mode as far as the tailcap was concerned.

Anything that changes modes via a tailcap is the plum opposite of tactical. Using low-light tactics you would kill yourself.

However, it might not be a good idea to even have this because if you forgot where you had the ring or bezel you could end up in a very bad situation.

It would be MUCH safer and easier to have a light that wasn't multi-mode and just turned on and off.

My recommendation for best tactical light would always be a Z2 with a Malkoff M60.

 

[Lightraven]

You probably read Robocop's testimony in which he couldn't get his M6 to turn on.

Actually, I'm the idiot, not Robo. That University of California degree paid for itself. Not an engineering degree, obviously.

There's a balance between capability and simplicity. You want both, but you often have to sacrifice one to get the other. For increased capability without overwhelming yourself under stress, your training requirements increase. Depending on organizational and individual motivation, the additional training might happen, it might not.

I'm semi-determined to learn to shoot wearing NVG's--there's a remote possibility I might have to use that on duty if I continue making contact while wearing it. It's an increased capability, but it's difficult. In Call of Duty 4, it's no problem, right? Try real life. I asked a SEAL how they shot their handguns with NVG's and was surprised by the answer. Didn't have time to ask him about their technique, though. It could be one of those things that is pretty mission specific for them.

So, between the 2.5X lens, IR illuminator, eye shade, focus, field of view, monochrome, reduced resolution, 1.1X, and monocular unit supplying two very different images to the brain, I am occasionally caught short by the complexity of just chasing down my quarry with NVG instead of lights. An actual fight wearing these could cause my brain to lock up if I don't train myself as much as I can on my nights off.

 

[Patriot]

ned on and off.

My recommendation for best tactical light would always be a Z2 with a Malkoff M60.

For sure. It would be hard to think of any more a reliable set-up than that.

 

[Search]

For sure. It would be hard to think of any more a reliable set-up than that.

+999

When this thread started, I would have said no multi-mode for LEO or Military for a number of reasons.

Then throughout the thread I had thought that maybe having those extra modes would benefit as different situations can be benefited from more or less light.

However, after what you said..

I could see people being killed because they forgot what mode their "Primary Tactical" light was in.

So I fall back on what I originally thought.

 

[Force Attuned]

My recommendation for best tactical light would always be a Z2 with a Malkoff M60.

For sure. It would be hard to think of any more a reliable set-up than that.

I don't have a Z2 myself, however I find that a G2Z and a Malkoff M60L work great together in conjunction with a V70 Speed Holster attached to the equipment belt - a great tactical set up IMO.

I also carry an E1B as a backup or use the low as a primary light for low-light/nil danger apparent situations only.

The only other light I carry with me in the kit is a 3D Maglite with a Malkoff LED Drop-In, however I want to upgrade to an M3 LED Turbo when it is finally released. Having said that I have made some enquiries regarding the Jetbeam M1X, but I want to compare this to the M3T LED first before I decide.

After trialling loads of different gear I have found that the above work quite well together, but that's my 2 cents anyway.

 

[Robocop]

When I think about the actual market for higher end duty/military gear it is easy to see how things have progressed however even so there is only so many things different you can do with a light. Just like the knife market the basic design is hard to improve on and every once in a while someone comes up with something that works a little better and we creep forward with something better.

The last real interesting development in duty lights came with Tiger Light adding mace to the actual design. Beautiful simple concept that was simple and natural to deploy under real life situations. It worked and was a huge success. There have not been any real advancements other than Luxeon technology which is still not really as dominant as incans for patrol work.

It seems stale to many because nothing new has came along. The Pelican has tried with their duty version Luxeon however again that is really nothing new. It is a decent bright, rugged rechargeable with many others just like it doing the same thing just as well. Tiger Light was thinking out of the box however with their improvement there is really nothing else I could think of that would be better.....unless you could somehow replace the mace with a taser mounted to your flashlight...(grin)

Wolf Eyes caught on well when they first came out as they had affordable, simple, bright luxeons with good service. Even though I carry several Wolf-Eyes (M90...Raider....Sniper) they are still nothing new to the world of tactical usage. I do very much like their various styles of lamps as well as body sizes. They did do a few things different however my choice to use their products was not because it was new technology however more so because I liked their several options to customize my light to my tastes.

 

[sORe-EyEz]

hmmm, how come no talk about battery change so easy & simple it can be done with eyes closed?

is that even a "tactical" advantage? :thinking:

small, simple & highly reliable flashlight + easy to draw & keep holster + battery change so foolproof it can be done blindfolded & fast. :candle: