A Primer on Modern Watch History and Movements.

[Monocrom]

I wonder how the Omega 1012 movement fits into all this?

Quite simply ... One of the best in-house, high beat, movements ever available in an Omega watch.

Are loose movements available for purchase anywhere in small quantities? There used to be a member here, I forgot his tag, but, his name is Stefan, who had a hobby of buying old pocket watches that were not working and adapting modern movements into them. Sounds like something I might look into.

If you're mainly willing to use Chinese-made movements. Check out the following site in the link below. Though in all honesty, I've never purchased from them. Have heard of others who have. Overall, they seemed to be satisfied. Looks like a good place for everything watch-parts related. (If you wanted to, you could even assemble your own watch from various spare parts. That would be a great story to tell others if you have the skill. That you literally put together your very own watch for yourself.) Though once again I can't personally endorse the site. And, it's the only one of its type that I know of.

www.ofrei.com/page1119.html

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Regarding the Chinese movements, how can you tell which movement fits in which watch? A watch maker would probably know, but for the layman how can I tell which movement would fit in say, a Seiko 007 Diver. or an ETA 2824 watch.

Bill

 

[PCC]

Thanks! The Omega 1012 movement is what's in the watch my dad gave to me many years ago.

Otto Frei is only a few miles from me. Might just have to go visit them...

 

[Monocrom]

Regarding the Chinese movements, how can you tell which movement fits in which watch? A watch maker would probably know, but for the layman how can I tell which movement would fit in say, a Seiko 007 Diver. or an ETA 2824 watch.

Bill

Unfortunately, specs. don't tell the whole story in that regard. Yes, you could measure the inner circumference of a watch case, then measure the circumference of a complete movement ready to be installed. But then there's a major issue often neglected by those who are new to installing movements into generic cases ... The movement holder/spacer.

When it comes to all the recognized High-End brands, open up their timepieces and you'll find one of two things. Either no holder/spacer at all (meaning the movement fits perfectly inside their watch cases) or you'll find a metal movement holder/spacer. Some of the brands one notch down in the Luxury brand category also don't use a holder/spacer in some of their models. Though all of them (except TAG Heuer) use metal ones if they do use a holder/spacer. (For some incredibly odd reason, TAG Heuer across the board uses plastic holders in their watches. In something like a $200 Seiko automatic, a cheap plastic holder is perfectly understandable. On a watch costing around $3,000 it makes no sense. Plastic holders also have longevity issues.)

The biggest issue for someone who isn't a professional watchmaker is that the thickness in circumference of these plastic or metal movement holders/spacers can vary rather significantly. Take the caseback off of, for example, a 41mm Longines HydroConquest and you'll see a very tastefully done rotor. You'll also see a movement that looks downright tiny compared to the large but excellent metal movement holder/spacer. On some watches with a plastic holder/spacer, you take off the caseback; and it's easy to confuse the thing for a slightly thick black rubber O-ring instead.

It varies. That's the problem. It can vary by a great deal too. Best bet for being absolutely sure is to consult with an independent watchmaker. With the site I linked to in my previous post, you can contact them by various different methods and inquire about which cases might be best with which movements. (Though clearly their knowledge will likely be limited to the movements and cases which they sell through their site.)

It's not the movements themselves which are the main problem. It's the varying thicknesses of the holders/spacers.

 

[Monocrom]

Thanks! The Omega 1012 movement is what's in the watch my dad gave to me many years ago.

Happy to help. Your dad's watch had one of Omega's best in-house movements (possibly the best one) before Omega switched over to ETA-based movements.

Otto Frei is only a few miles from me. Might just have to go visit them...

If you do get a chance to stop by and check them out in person. Please let us know what the experience was like.

 

[Raze]

Pulled the trigger on my first mechanical watch. A Rotary Jura skeleton.

I think it runs a slightly modified Claro-Semag 888 movement to qualify as being "Swiss Made"

Edit: Pic

 

[Barbarian]

Great writeup Monocrom!

What is your experience with and opinion of atomic signal timekeeping? Any brands better than others regarding this timekeeping method?

I have a couple of Eco-Drive watches with atomic signal and so far, I could not be happier.

 

[Monocrom]

Great writeup Monocrom!

What is your experience with and opinion of atomic signal timekeeping? Any brands better than others regarding this timekeeping method?

I have a couple of Eco-Drive watches with atomic signal and so far, I could not be happier.

Thank you.

Truth is, my experience with them is zero. Couldn't help you out regarding which brands are better, in that regard. Sorry.

I will say however that Citizen's Eco-Drive line overall is fantastic. Hard to go wrong with an Eco-Drive model in general. My main EDC watch is my Eco-Drive BM7080-03E model. Fantastic performance in the 3 years I've had her.

 

[Monocrom]

Thought you guys would enjoy seeing what can be done in regards to the highest example of the watchmaker's art.

 

[Flying Turtle]

That's amazing! It certainly is an "art". That video and some of the others that follow are hard to believe.

Geoff

 

[Monocrom]

Glad you enjoyed it, Geoff.

Have to agree that when it gets to that level it's no longer a watch but a true work of Art.

 

[cprrckwlf]

Can you explain what it means if a manual-winding watch has "low amplitude" and what causes that? I understand that it means the watch's balance wheel doesn't rotate "enough", but why does that cause the watch to run fast? Are there any good resources for how to service manual-wind watches? (The one I have with this problem is a pocket watch)...

FWIW, it keeps time pretty well as long as I keep it wound frequently...

Got this one, Monocrom.

Low amplitude means just what you said it does -- the balance wheel isn't swinging as far as it should.

Now, a quartz watch (with a few exceptions) moves the second hand 1 time per second, right? This is why it has that distinctive jumping or ticking from second to second with a little stepping motor moving everything.

A mechanical watch moves the second hand a lot more often depending on the watch's frequency or beats per hour (bph) -- some watches 4 times (this is slow), some 5, some 6, some 8, whatever there are tradeoffs in things like accuracy and power reserve depending on the number -- this causes the "sweep". What we need to know here, is that the Balance wheel's oscillation is responsible for the bph, and, with the escapement (the thing that locks and unlocks the drive train), converting the energy in the mainspring (what you wind) into energy for everything else. As the balance wheel moves one way it releases the escapement and the second hand moves its tiny amount. Then the balance wheel gets kicked back by the escapement, swings back the other way, the escapement releases again, and the second hand moves a little further. If the balance wheel isn't getting kicked as hard as it should then isn't moving as far as it should, then it is traveling a shorter distance to each side and so it can cover the ground faster. Therefore low power = low amplitude = fast watch.

There are any number of reasons that this can happen, from bad regulation, to gunk in the system, to worn out parts. Gunk in the system -- dirt, grime, old oil -- is the most likely and a clean and oil is normally all it takes. It isn't overly hard but does require some knowledge (got this), specialized tools (don't have this), and very steady hands (really don't have this). This is a good series to get started: http://www.clockmaker.com.au/diy_seiko_7s26/ using a watch you can get for $50 or $60, but all movements are different. It is not something you want to try 1st time on a watch you care about -- find someone who has been sitting in a dark back room hunched over so long that they can no longer stand up straight, and with a permanent squint in one eye from holding a monocle there for the past 50 years.

Finally, as far as it keeping better time if wound fully: Over the course of a single winding the watches amount of available power and speed varies. For a watch that is functioning normally when you've first wound it all the way it has a lot of power and it can't completely control the release of it so the escapement gives the balance big kicks with each pass (I've read it to be around 270 degrees to each side) so the watch is actually running slower (more ground to cover). As it releases through the center of the wind, or the largest part of the mainspring uncoiling, it runs normally. At the end it isn't getting enough power, so less kick, less swing (105 degrees), faster movement. Adjusting for this is called adjusting for isochronism, and it is more specialized than normal servicing and repair. Whether it be that your watch has to fight its way through grime or something else, it sounds like your power curve is starting in the middle and spending a lot of time at the end.

Hope I didn't lose you too early on that.

 

[KITROBASKIN]

Very Cool

 

[gunga]

Just finished reading. Great post! I have an Archimede with ETA 2824-2 and notice the smoother 8bps sweep vs 6bps on my Seikos. Do the ETAs require more servicing? I heard that the Seiko 7s26 can go forever with minimal servicing.

 

[Monocrom]

Just finished reading. Great post! I have an Archimede with ETA 2824-2 and notice the smoother 8bps sweep vs 6bps on my Seikos. Do the ETAs require more servicing? I heard that the Seiko 7s26 can go forever with minimal servicing.

Seiko's 7s26 movement does have a reputation for durability and reliability. But unfortunately, not accuracy. (And I mean compared to other mechanical watch movements with a self-winding rotor.) A 7s26 won't last forever with just a bit of servicing. But any even minimally competent independent watchmaker can service the movement. However, it's no secret in the watch community that if you send an old Seiko with a 7s26 movement back to Seiko for servicing ... Seiko simply opens up the case, throws away the entire movement, and simply replaces it with a brands new 7s26 one. That's how inexpensive the entire movement is. Replacement is actually cheaper than taking the existing movement apart and properly servicing it.

The ironic thing with mechanical watches is that you typically get less durability as the price goes up. If you include quartz watches, the discrepancy is even worse. A No-Name $11 quartz model from Wal-Mart will put some mechanical watches costing six figures to absolute shame, as far as durability is concerned.

ETA watches don't require more servicing. Like the 7s26 for Japan, ETA's 2824 is also an absolute workhorse. Though available in 4 different grades, and often modified by various Swiss watch brands. Sometimes little more than a new, engraved, rotor. Sometimes extensive modifications that it sometimes no longer looks like an ETA movement. And much of the time, ETA does the modifying themselves; based on who the client is and which modifications they order. Once again, even a semi-skilled independent watchmaker should be able to very easily service any grade of any common ETA movement. Not just the 2824. But expect higher servicing prices if the movement is inside of a luxury brand timepiece. Or, if it was heavily modified.

Unfortunately, ETA is a Swatch Group brand. And the head of the S.G. has decided that ETA will no longer provide any movements to any non-Swatch Group brands. The S.G. has already reduced the amounts that ETA sells to other brands. (Recently, Steinhart ordered around 4,000 movements. The shipment they received was only 500.)

Other Swiss movement maker (not part of the S.G.) are trying to take up the slack. Sellita in particular. Having been a sub-contractor that used to make ETA movements for ETA, Sellita has the knowledge to take up some of the slack. Though definitely not all.

Archimede isn't part of the Swatch Group. Though thankfully the 2824-2 is common as dirt in the industry. (A quality movement though.) Servicing won't be an issue anytime soon as donor watches from countless different brands will be around for use of spare movement parts by independent watchmakers. Though expect prices of a typical servicing to go up quite a bit due to this artificial situation in which Demand is going to remain constant, but Supply will be significantly less due to ETA only providing its movements to other Swatch Group brands from now on.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?

Bill

 

[cprrckwlf]

Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?

Bill

No. The various grades will have differences in materials used, types of shock protection, and some other things -- you can very quickly google for a chart and then google to see what each thing uses -- but it isn't 100% reliable.

Example: standard and elabore grades use an etachocs shock absorber, top and chronometer use the better incabloc. But some manufacturers put out standards that they have upgraded to incabloc.

Chronometers will have serial numbers and should be obvious, but the other 3 won't be.

If you really want to know the best thing to do is contact the manufacturer and ask.

 

[Monocrom]

Are their markings on a case back, or on the movement to tell the different grades of 2824-2's?

Bill

cprrckwlf beat me to it. The first 3 grades are not always easy to tell apart. I know some collectors who specifically buy a watch with "chronometer" printed across the bottom of the dial ... simply to be 100% sure that they're getting the highest grade.

 

[Bullzeyebill]

What do you think the range of prices would be for a high grade 2824-2 watch?

Bill

 

[Monocrom]

It's difficult to come up with a range based on what you get, for what you pay. Once one barely dips a toe into the Entry-Level Luxury Tier of watch brands (based on prices alone), it becomes completely all about what the Market will bear. Has nothing to do with what you're getting in exchange for the Asking Price. Watch brands in the Entry-Level Luxury and higher tiers have frequent price hikes with zero improvements or often very minor improvements to the watches they offer. This is done because various watch brands know they can get away with it because consumers will still pay the inflated prices.

Least expensive one out there right now is the Chronometer grade silver-dial Tissot T-Tempo (Ref.# T0604081103100) at MSRP $1125. And I mean that one specific model from Tissot. Prices shoot up from there, once again solely based on what the Market will bear in terms of how much various watch brands can charge for not only Chronometer-grade 2824-2s but for bog standard versions of that same movement. Bremont, only in existance for 11 years (infant status in the watch industry), charges over $5000 for the same Chronometer-grade 2824-2 in their lowest-priced entry Bremont model Solo. The Solo isn't even shock-resistant. It's a very basic Three-Hander with a date feature. Nothing special at all. Yet, a brand with practically no history can get away with charging that much over a company like Tissot. A company with a real history in the watch world.

But we're not knocking on the ceiling yet. Next is the IWC Mark XVII. The latest version of the absolutely iconic Mark XII. Difference is, one of the big reasons why that version was iconic is because it had a JLC movement inside. Jaeger-LeCoultre over the decades has supplied movements for some of the most sought after brands in existence. Including the handful of recognized High-End brands. Brands that make Rolex look downright cheap, by comparison. (In terms of both price and quality.) JLCs movements are beyond legendary. IWCs current Mark XVII doesn't benefit from having a JLC movement. It's a higher grade ETA 2824-2 inside. While available in a chronograph version, the basic Three-Hander Mark XVII has the 2824-2 inside. And costs even more than the Solo from Bremont.

There's truly nothing special about the Bremont or IWC compared to the Tissot. Nothing at all. The difference in prices is literally all about Marketing and Reputations. Truth is, the IWC isn't even the highest-priced one out there with a better grade of 2824-2 inside of it.

Basically, $1125 (for that one Tissot model) to well into the 5-figure range for a Chronometer-grade movement.

Though, for a basic Three-Hander with a basic date feature; anything above $3K for a Top-Grade or Chronometer-grade timepiece just seems silly. Some enthusiasts/collectors draw the line at $5K. But honestly, that's just too much for a Top-grade or Chronometer-grade ETA 2824-2. Anything above $3K, and the watch needs to have something special about it to make it worth getting. Something special other than the movement.

If we factor in a Top-grade version as well, we're realistically talking $1K - $5K (again, assuming something truly special about a watch with an Asking Price above $3K). An enthusiast/collector could easily pay above $5K for a nothing-special basic Three-Hander with a higher-grade ETA 2824-2, if they wished. Though yes ... it looks silly doing so.