Launch Mini
Flashlight Enthusiast
Reading all these posts has enticed to hit my liquor cabinet tonight for a glass of gods nectar . Will try the Bunnahabhain 25 year tonight.
Any Scotch Whisky drinkers out there?
- Thread starter KingSmono
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Yeah, I learned that tip in my first structured tasting, and it really stuck with me. I've since noticed that experienced whisky drinkers never comment on taste after just one sip - they always wait to the second or third try before saying anything about palate. I try to apply that on every new whisky I try.
Yeah, I don't get into the differences in process among jurisdictions very much (although I do provide some links for further reading here: http://whiskyanalysis.com/index.php/introduction-main-page/how-whisky-is-made/). Davin de Kergommeaux's site has a lot of great info on Canadian methods.
Although it's true that most Canadian whisky is column-distilled, there is still plenty of pot-distilled product in the better quality blends - although I warrant most of the mass-produced stuff is probably mainly column-distilled. Of course, technically, I suspect one could argue most Scottish whisky is also column-distilled (i.e., only ~10% of sales are single malts, the rest being blends composed mainly of column-distilled grain whisky with lower proportions of pot-distilled malt whisky). But the relative ratio is presumably more skewed to column-distilled in Canada.
The different processes across jurisdictions are interesting, as they likely explain a lot of the different taste/feel of the final products, as you observe. Our use of "grain bills" for example (i.e., typically most grains are distilled separately and then mixed before aging in Canada, AFAIK). This differs from the more common mash bills for bourbon (i.e., blending the grains before distillation), and the blending after barrel aging for scotches. And of course, our common use of low ABV rye whisky to "flavour" higher ABV base whiskies gives a very signature flavour here. Personally, I'm glad to see more "straight" rye whiskies coming on the market, as they are distinctive.
At the end of the day though, the higher-end blends (which we don't export)
tend to be produced by blending different stocks produced using high-quality methods. There are plenty of really good whiskies here, but you generally have to come to Canada to try them. Thanks, will check that link out.
Yes, I was referring to the traditional major brands. For boutique Canadian whisky I know there's been some interesting developments there. I'm not up to date on those since I don't follow Canadian whiskey as much as I do other distilled spirits but I'd love to come to Canada to try some of the ones that don't get exported some day. It's a great time for spirits affianados as there is so much going on. On a trip to some of the Caribbean islands a couple of years ago I found many rums that don't get exported to the U.S. I'd heard about these for years but hadn't been able to try some of them until then.
Speaking of interesting developments in whiskey here's one in the U.S. that's worth a look:
http://www.haliimailedistilling.com/paniolo-whiskey
They're located on Maui and I had the pleasure of attending the grand opening of their new facility and taking the tour of the distillery a few months ago and getting to talk with the master distiller. I didn't recognize some of the equipment and it turned out the master distiller there personally designed much of it and had it custom built to his specifications. They use pineapple distillate to make vodka and a bourbon whiskey. They also make a rum.
Yes, I was referring to the traditional major brands. For boutique Canadian whisky I know there's been some interesting developments there. I'm not up to date on those since I don't follow Canadian whiskey as much as I do other distilled spirits but I'd love to come to Canada to try some of the ones that don't get exported some day. It's a great time for spirits affianados as there is so much going on. On a trip to some of the Caribbean islands a couple of years ago I found many rums that don't get exported to the U.S. I'd heard about these for years but hadn't been able to try some of them until then.
Speaking of interesting developments in whiskey here's one in the U.S. that's worth a look:
http://www.haliimailedistilling.com/paniolo-whiskey
They're located on Maui and I had the pleasure of attending the grand opening of their new facility and taking the tour of the distillery a few months ago and getting to talk with the master distiller. I didn't recognize some of the equipment and it turned out the master distiller there personally designed much of it and had it custom built to his specifications. They use pineapple distillate to make vodka and a bourbon whiskey. They also make a rum.
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kaichu dento
Flashaholic
I mostly noticed how much a difference it made for me and especially how some people would recoil immediately at the smell, but after a few minutes their nose got used to it and prepared the palate for what we already know to be elixir once the senses have prepared themselves.
My first Laphroaig experience came in the form of a purchased bottle that did not sit well with me for about three days. Then inexplicably I grew to love it, as I also do the Quarter Cask.I can tell you a funny story. Back in 1981 before the scotch awakening in this country I had the interesting experience of sitting in a pub on the south end of Loch Lomond, and asking the bartender for a shot of Laphroaig. I was 30 but looked much younger and the bartender was a Scots gentleman probably in his mid 50s, but anyway, he politely refused to serve it to me and instead poured me some Royal Lochnagar, saying he could do much better than the Laphroaig. Well, the Royal Lochnagar was a perfectly fine Scotch but still not what I wanted. No doubt he thought I was some young, inexperienced American who didn't know what he was asking for and was trying to spare me an unpleasant experience.
Come on up to Alaska and check out my collection! (Bring lights)
I'm in love with both the Bunnahabhain 12 and 18. The 25 must be heavenly.
Just noticed your comment on the Hayden's going thru some of the previous posts.
I've always felt the same way about the Basil Hayden and have always been puzzled by its positioning in the market as a super premium bourbon because I didn't find the finished product justified the extra cost.
I think part of my problem is I'm not a big fan of lighter bodied and lighter flavored spirits of any kind and that includes bourbon. But there is no doubt it's still a legitimate bourbon style even if it's not to my liking, ranging from cheaper examples like Early Times and Rebel Yell (which are perfectly fine gven their price point) to intermediate premium price examples like the Woodford Reserve, or the somewhat cheaper Jim Beam 8-yr. black label or the 103 proof Fighting ****, to the super premiums like Hayden's.
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kaichu dento
Flashaholic
After realizing I was a scotch fan more than a bourbon fan I had the opportunity to try Basil Hayden's again as one of my friends favorites and liked it much more than that initial bottle when we were drinking a wide variety of bourbons regularly. Had some Booker's again yesterday and still think it pretty good.
Nice to see you mention my favorite cheap bourbon, the Jim Beam Black, although I gave my last bottle away as it was gathering dust next to the scotches.
The Booker's is truly wonderful stuff. I wish I'd saved one of the few bottlings that came in at over 130 proof.
The Jim Beam black label is very nice but unfortunately much less common in the U.S. than the white label.
Interestingly, despite their popularity, the Jim Beam white and black label don't have a typical bourbon flavor profile, which have a wine-like flavor and character that none of the other bourbons has.
Sometimes bourbons can be just as wild, weird, woolly, and wacky as single malt scotch.
However, no one can match the venerable Queen of England in that regard. It's said she likes to lace her claret with Scotch, thereby ruining two of the world's greatest drinks. :eeksign:
The Jim Beam black label is very nice but unfortunately much less common in the U.S. than the white label.
Interestingly, despite their popularity, the Jim Beam white and black label don't have a typical bourbon flavor profile, which have a wine-like flavor and character that none of the other bourbons has.
Sometimes bourbons can be just as wild, weird, woolly, and wacky as single malt scotch.
However, no one can match the venerable Queen of England in that regard. It's said she likes to lace her claret with Scotch, thereby ruining two of the world's greatest drinks. :eeksign:
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Interestingly, there is not as much of a craft industry in Canada. While there are some newer, small distilleries, most of the high-quality Canadian whisky is actually made by the major brands. They just make very little of it, proportionately speaking.
It took me awhile to figure this out. I have to admit to being initially biased against Canadian whiskies - precisely because I am Canadian.
My initial experience with the cheap stuff was a turn-off, and it was hard to believe these same distilleries could be making excellent quality products. But things like the Crown Royal Special Reserve, Gibson's 18 yo, and Wiser's Legacy, are eye-opening compared to the base expressions they sell.I did an analysis of LCBO inventory in one of my blog commentaries, and noted that over 96% of the production of these major distillers goes into their entry-level expressions (at least in Ontario). So while it can be hard to find a bottle of the good stuff mentioned above, it is worth it (i.e., maybe 1 in 10 LCBO outlets within 30 kms of my house carry any of the above mentioned 3 expressions, whereas they all have tons of the cheap stuff).
That's a really good point - I should probably give them even longer to get used to the smell. My approach to date has been to save those for the end (i.e., the Lagavullin 16 yo is the last bottle to come out for the evening).
As an aside, I've never really managed to come around to enjoying the Laphroaigs. I still prefer the Ardmore/Talisker style for the lighter peat, or the Lagavulin for the full-blown flavour experience. It's too bad, since the Quarter Cask is probably the best relative deal at the LCBO (i.e., cheaper than the 10 yo, and only a few dollars more than the entry level Bowmore).
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<<Interestingly, there is not as much of a craft industry in Canada. While there are some newer, small distilleries, most of the high-quality Canadian whisky is actually made by the major brands. They just make very little of it, proportionately speaking.>>
Interesting. The situation is a bit different here in the U.S. as the craft breweries and distilling operations have succeeded beyond anyone's expectation. Either way, though, I'd love to sample them on my next trip to Canada which is coming up in the fall. We're getting to several places including the P.E.I.
I know what you mean about the cheaper whiskies which can be a bit harsh but the premium ones you mentioned can be very nice too. The cheaper American whiskies such as Early Times or Rebel Yell aren't really that harsh; they just lack enough true bourbon character in my humble opinion. My view is that since what distinguishes bourbon compared to other distilled spirits like cognac, scotch, rum, etc., is its emphasis on the darker fruits: i.e., prunes, plums, raisins, peaches, stewed fruit, etc., those flavors should be at least as noticeable in a bourbon as the vanilla imparted by the charred oak or the cereal grain maltiness which is pretty much universal among distilled grain spirits.
This is also why I'm not big on several of the more premium bourbons like the Woodford Reserve or Basil Hayden's; especially in the case of the Woodford most of what you get is a fairly clean tasting bourbon with a few perhaps interesting but weak top notes but a lot of vanilla, but the other favors are just not up to snuff. It's the same with the Basil Hayden's, just with less aggressive up front vanilla flavor. If you're paying that kind of money I just think you should get more true bourbon character. Others mileage may vary.
This is why I like the Blanton's, still a lighter bourbon (although getting very close to a medium one if not actually) but it has much more flavor and character. At the same price point as the Woodford there's Knob Creek which is more fully flavored and is excellent.
Interesting. The situation is a bit different here in the U.S. as the craft breweries and distilling operations have succeeded beyond anyone's expectation. Either way, though, I'd love to sample them on my next trip to Canada which is coming up in the fall. We're getting to several places including the P.E.I.
I know what you mean about the cheaper whiskies which can be a bit harsh but the premium ones you mentioned can be very nice too. The cheaper American whiskies such as Early Times or Rebel Yell aren't really that harsh; they just lack enough true bourbon character in my humble opinion. My view is that since what distinguishes bourbon compared to other distilled spirits like cognac, scotch, rum, etc., is its emphasis on the darker fruits: i.e., prunes, plums, raisins, peaches, stewed fruit, etc., those flavors should be at least as noticeable in a bourbon as the vanilla imparted by the charred oak or the cereal grain maltiness which is pretty much universal among distilled grain spirits.
This is also why I'm not big on several of the more premium bourbons like the Woodford Reserve or Basil Hayden's; especially in the case of the Woodford most of what you get is a fairly clean tasting bourbon with a few perhaps interesting but weak top notes but a lot of vanilla, but the other favors are just not up to snuff. It's the same with the Basil Hayden's, just with less aggressive up front vanilla flavor. If you're paying that kind of money I just think you should get more true bourbon character. Others mileage may vary.
This is why I like the Blanton's, still a lighter bourbon (although getting very close to a medium one if not actually) but it has much more flavor and character. At the same price point as the Woodford there's Knob Creek which is more fully flavored and is excellent.
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Interestingly, there is not as much of a craft industry in Canada. While there are some newer, small distilleries, most of the high-quality Canadian whisky is actually made by the major brands. They just make very little of it, proportionately speaking.
It took me awhile to figure this out. I have to admit to being initially biased against Canadian whiskies - precisely because I am Canadian.
I did an analysis of LCBO inventory in one of my blog commentaries, and noted that over 96% of the production of these major distillers goes into their entry-level expressions (at least in Ontario). So while it can be hard to find a bottle of the good stuff mentioned above, it is worth it (i.e., maybe 1 in 10 LCBO outlets within 30 kms of my house carry any of the above mentioned 3 expressions, whereas they all have tons of the cheap stuff).
That's a really good point - I should probably give them even longer to get used to the smell. My approach to date has been to save those for the end (i.e., the Lagavullin 16 yo is the last bottle to come out for the evening).
As an aside, I've never really managed to come around to enjoying the Laphroaigs. I still prefer the Ardmore/Talisker style for the lighter peat, or the Lagavulin for the full-blown flavour experience. It's too bad, since the Quarter Cask is probably the best relative deal at the LCBO (i.e., cheaper than the 10 yo, and only a few dollars more than the entry level Bowmore).
Interestingly, there is not as much of a craft industry in Canada. While there are some newer, small distilleries, most of the high-quality Canadian whisky is actually made by the major brands. They just make very little of it, proportionately speaking.
It took me awhile to figure this out. I have to admit to being initially biased against Canadian whiskies - precisely because I am Canadian.
I did an analysis of LCBO inventory in one of my blog commentaries, and noted that over 96% of the production of these major distillers goes into their entry-level expressions (at least in Ontario). So while it can be hard to find a bottle of the good stuff mentioned above, it is worth it (i.e., maybe 1 in 10 LCBO outlets within 30 kms of my house carry any of the above mentioned 3 expressions, whereas they all have tons of the cheap stuff).
That's a really good point - I should probably give them even longer to get used to the smell. My approach to date has been to save those for the end (i.e., the Lagavullin 16 yo is the last bottle to come out for the evening).
As an aside, I've never really managed to come around to enjoying the Laphroaigs. I still prefer the Ardmore/Talisker style for the lighter peat, or the Lagavulin for the full-blown flavour experience. It's too bad, since the Quarter Cask is probably the best relative deal at the LCBO (i.e., cheaper than the 10 yo, and only a few dollars more than the entry level Bowmore).
Interesting analysis you did there. It sounds like the high end whiskies are hard to find in Canada. Can you order online and have it shipped in without paying an arm a leg in import duties?
I was fortunate to live for 30 years only 20 minutes from the store in California with the largest spirits inventory outside of N.Y. city, which was a great help to my education.
About Laphroaig. Yeah, basically a bit of a one-horse show. It's sort of the Kardashian or Paris Hilton of the single malts, famous for being famous. I prefer the other Islays myself, or the Campbell towns which are second cousin to the Islays.
What does LCBO stand for? Licensed Canadian Booze Outlet?
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Launch Mini
Flashlight Enthusiast
The 25 year is amazing. So many flavors. I received as a gift for 25 years of service at my office. As good as it is it s not my all time favorite
I'm terrible a describing tastes.
I've only shared it with friends who appreciate a good glass of scotch.
Smooth is an understatement.
Liquor Control Board of Ontario, which makes it pretty clear that they hold the provincial state's monopoly on liquor sales (outside of beer - which oddly has a private monopolistic entity in the province). While you could get a bottle sent from one LCBO outlet to another, in practice this is highly dependent on the mood of the individual clerks approached at each outlet.Interesting analysis you did there. It sounds like the high end whiskies are hard to find in Canada. Can you order online and have it shipped in without paying an arm a leg in import duties?
What does LCBO stand for? Licensed Canadian Booze Outlet?
Virtually impossible to get something out of province in Canada (unless you order a case, and then will have nasty fees imposed). And as for international, well, the current additional duty fee on a single 700-750mL bottle of whisky is ~$80-90 right now (on top of the retail price of the bottle, of course). And you have no choice but to go through the LCBO (i.e., can't order privately). In any case, almost academic - most international sellers won't even consider dealing with the LCBO, so shipping to Ontario is not even an option (even if you were willing to pay the ridiculous markup).That said, if you are up this way, they can have pretty decent selection to choose from at the larger outlets - in the late fall, when gearing up for holiday sales.
Thanks, glad you liked the site. :wave:
While back on the topic of scotches specifically, any fans of Auchentoshan out there? The base 12 yo expression goes over very well with everyone who tries it at my house (and was also one of my early favourites when starting out). Can't say I go for it much anymore, but I always thought this one was under-rated by people.
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Sure, Auchentoshan is considered the archetypal Lowland, along with Rosebank. It was always the first lowland I introduced new whisky buffs to at tastings because of it's very balanced and integrated character.
My other two fave lowlands were Littlemill, which was notable for it's cocoanut and vanilla flavors and overall very sweet and fruity character. I've seen bottles of Littlemill that you could literally pour over ice cream (I've done it, fun stuff) like you could one of the sweeter bourbons. Littlemill could have quite an expressive range, though; check out the tasting notes on various bottlings by this reviewer who seems to have a pretty perceptive palate:
http://www.maltmadness.com/whisky/littlemill.html
Then there was Bladnoch, which has a very lemony, lemon-grass, citrus-like taste. As I considered those more "specialist" type lowland malts I would often follow the Auchentoshan with those. The point was to demonstrate that the lowlands could be almost as individualistic and eccentric as the weirder Islays such as Caol Ila since the lowlands usually don't get as much attention as the other regions.
Note I said "almost" because in general the lowlands are traditionally considered softer and more approachable than the other regions. But they're an important part of a good tasting. You progress from the lowlands to the highlands and other regions and finally to the Islays. The lowlands are more well behaved; you start there and then end up with the Islays where you're in psycho-freakshow territory. Usually the Caol Ila or one of the "liquid peat" Ardbegs was the last malt on the list. For a while I used a Cadenhead barrel strength Ardbeg at around 120 proof that was ridiculous; it tasted like heavily peated shoe or nail polish, until it ran out. I've seen died in the wool Islay drinkers almost spit it out and not be able to finish a shot. A tasting can be a lot of fun if set up right.
Now before anyone says anything of course there are always the exceptions and limitations to the geographic approach as you have noted in your blog. The classic examples of that are Bruichladdich and Bunnahabhain which are not typical Islays and are more like southern highland or even lowland malts. Most of the Islay lovers I've given those to who had never tried them before were disappointed. On the other hand, they liked the Springbank and Highland Park which although Campbelltown and Orkney malts respectively are basically second cousin to the Islays. They even liked a Clynelish which I mixed 50-50 with a Longmorn better (the favorite concoction of the late, great Victorian connoisseur, Professor Saintsbury--who am I to disagree with the professor?) LOL
My other two fave lowlands were Littlemill, which was notable for it's cocoanut and vanilla flavors and overall very sweet and fruity character. I've seen bottles of Littlemill that you could literally pour over ice cream (I've done it, fun stuff
) like you could one of the sweeter bourbons. Littlemill could have quite an expressive range, though; check out the tasting notes on various bottlings by this reviewer who seems to have a pretty perceptive palate:http://www.maltmadness.com/whisky/littlemill.html
Then there was Bladnoch, which has a very lemony, lemon-grass, citrus-like taste. As I considered those more "specialist" type lowland malts I would often follow the Auchentoshan with those. The point was to demonstrate that the lowlands could be almost as individualistic and eccentric as the weirder Islays such as Caol Ila since the lowlands usually don't get as much attention as the other regions.
Note I said "almost" because in general the lowlands are traditionally considered softer and more approachable than the other regions. But they're an important part of a good tasting. You progress from the lowlands to the highlands and other regions and finally to the Islays. The lowlands are more well behaved; you start there and then end up with the Islays where you're in psycho-freakshow territory.
Usually the Caol Ila or one of the "liquid peat" Ardbegs was the last malt on the list. For a while I used a Cadenhead barrel strength Ardbeg at around 120 proof that was ridiculous; it tasted like heavily peated shoe or nail polish, until it ran out. I've seen died in the wool Islay drinkers almost spit it out and not be able to finish a shot. A tasting can be a lot of fun if set up right. Now before anyone says anything of course there are always the exceptions and limitations to the geographic approach as you have noted in your blog. The classic examples of that are Bruichladdich and Bunnahabhain which are not typical Islays and are more like southern highland or even lowland malts. Most of the Islay lovers I've given those to who had never tried them before were disappointed. On the other hand, they liked the Springbank and Highland Park which although Campbelltown and Orkney malts respectively are basically second cousin to the Islays. They even liked a Clynelish which I mixed 50-50 with a Longmorn better (the favorite concoction of the late, great Victorian connoisseur, Professor Saintsbury--who am I to disagree with the professor?) LOL
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kaichu dento
Flashaholic
Crown Royal Reserve is the only non-scotch type whisky I keep on hand anymore. As one of my friends said a couple years ago, "that stuff is dangerously drinkable!"....things like the Crown Royal Special Reserve...are eye-opening compared to the base expressions they sell.
My approach to date has been to save those for the end (i.e., the Lagavullin 16 yo is the last bottle to come out for the evening).
The other night we had a three Lagavulin session which was a lot of fun and if you get the chance to pick up the 12 year, got for it with no hesitation!
Hmmm, I feel I just got to share in the experience. I'll be on the lookout for it if I'm ever lucky enough to find it in a scotch bar.
I sure like some of the Bruichladdich that I've had the chance to try and have a 10 right now, but that Bunnahabhain 18 is one of the most enigmatic scotches in my range of experience. Sublime, magical...
Yes, Crown appears to have dropped the "special" part from the label in recent years, but it is the same stuff (i.e. CR Special Reserve = CR Reserve). It's definitely a bit confusing with all the variants they have released over the years, but this is one of the highest ranked Crown Royal's in my database. I note the LCBO still has it labelled as "special reserve".
Yes, I've heard good things about all three - and all score well in my database (but the 16 yo seems to remain the crowd favourite). So far, I've only tried the 16yo and Distiller's Edition (and prefer the 16 yo myself), but will keep my eyes open for the 12!
kaichu dento
Flashaholic
Crown Black was my first experience of actually finding a whisky that tasted good, and the start of my new pastime. My two favorite Crown Royals are Reserve, and then the very difficult to find Cask No. 16, which I'll probably never see again.
Funny thing with the Lagavulins, I didn't care either for the 12 or the Distiller's Edition when I first tried them, even though I loved the 16 right from the start. Having tried all three (and the Lagavulin-like Laphroaig Cairdeas) at the same tasting, it was apparent that as good as they all were, there was something very special about the 12 putting it in special company in my experiences, along with Bunnahabhain 18, TirNaNog 18, Port Ellen 25 (Signatory Vintage), Ardbeg Corryvreckan, Ichiro's Malt Wine Wood Reserve, Macallan 16, and, get ready for it, Glenfiddich Special Old Reserve.
I hope you can post up sometime about your views of the Lagavulin 12 to see if you find it to be as good as I do.
Nothing wrong with the Glenfiddich. They don't get much respect these days as it's considered a beginner's malt, but they were the first single malt to widely advertise in the attempt to attract new buyers and to convert drinkers of blends. This goes all the way back to the 1920s and the industry thought they were crazy at the time, but it worked. The whole industry really owes them a debt as they were the first to show it could be done. Until then the singles were considered too esoteric for most palates, not to mention expensive.
Jameson's was mentioned a while back and I just had the opportunity to try the 12 and 18 yr. last night. It had been years since I'd had either of them. The 12 yr. was actually the better whisky in my opinion for the price as it was more complex and had more character. Noteworthy were favors of butter brickle, English toffee, and vanilla. The 18 yr. was smoother as might be expected, but the aforementioned flavors were gone, replaced by a mandarin orange or perhaps orange peel flavor, but that was all. Nice smooth finish but just too one-dimensional and not as interesting and fully flavored as the 12.
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