Are we really talking about "lifetime" lights?

[gcbryan]

I think (not positive) that the 50,000 hour lifetime for the LEDs is frequently misused by the manufacturers (what's new). I don't think there is a rating for an emitters life expectancy in the way that it is commonly used.

The thing the 50,000 hour thing is that in the qualification test the last LED failed at 50,000. The first could have failed after 10,000 hours and there would be an average time before failure of course.

Anyway, I doubt that the LED is the weak point in a decent design. Humidity affecting the circuit board or impact from dropping is more likely to be the failure point.

This isn't just about "quality" flashlights however. The cheapest 2 D cell Everready lights out there from 40-50-60 years ago still work. What's not to work? A sliding switch and replaceable bulbs and batteries and a light should last a long time.

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

I don't buy lifetime lights. I buy lights that are in the middle between cheap junk and super expensive.

I buy lights that can be upgraded, which have something about them that will persist between LED changes, or, that accommodate a quality incandescent that is easily replaced, cheap, and plentiful.

If you want a Forty Year Light, avoid:

-rust
-battery leaks
-water
-small children
-loaning lights out
-using flashlights as tools outside illuminating things
-letting threads go dry
-improper heatsinking

 

[Swede74]

I think in 40 years the battery will be the main issue with lights. I am sure AAs will certainly be around even if we have amazing advances in battery technology which I expect. AAs will have to be made because there are just too many devices that will still be around that will need them.

CR-123s will almost certainly be obsolete in far less than 40 years. I expect them to be more or obsolete in 10 years or so. AAs will be able to provide all the power of a CR123 and the CR123 will be relegated to the trash can of history.

While some of the batteries we use today may be obsolete in a decade or two, I don't think anyone has to worry that it's going to be an issue. Adaptors / converters that allow us to use whatever power source will be the standard for flashlights in the future will be available. Perhaps not readily available for the general public, in hardware stores all over the world, but I can't imagine it will be a problem for flashoholics to find them online.

51 minutes left of 2011...I'd best get ready to turn off my light (!) and head out to watch the fireworks.

Happy new year, fellow friends of flashlights.

 

[Dude Dudeson]

I don't see why my 6P/M60 couldn't be considered a "lifetime flashlight", assuming it actually does last that long anyway.

This is not a 40 year old Maglite that "still works", or transistor radio, etc.

It's a bit like saying "In 40 more years we'll look at these 3000 watt car stereos and laugh at how weak sounding they are" - um, no I don't think so...

I think in 40 years (assuming this OWNER makes it that long!) this flashlight will be just as appropriate of a tool for it's intended purposes/abilities as it is today.

Will there be brighter stuff? Sure, and we're already there anyway.

Battery tech could be a serious wild card, smaller host sizes could be the real game changers, but the things basically still have to work with the human hand...

Plus sometimes you want size - years down the road my light may be able to exist in something the size of three wooden match sticks taped together. That could be highly advantageous in a number of situations, but highly disadvantageous in as many others too...

 

[fyrstormer]

I think in 40 years the battery will be the main issue with lights. I am sure AAs will certainly be around even if we have amazing advances in battery technology which I expect. AAs will have to be made because there are just too many devices that will still be around that will need them.

CR-123s will almost certainly be obsolete in far less than 40 years. I expect them to be more or obsolete in 10 years or so. AAs will be able to provide all the power of a CR123 and the CR123 will be relegated to the trash can of history.

I seriously doubt it. Look at how many standard-size cells there are today, compared to how many have existed in the past but are no longer used. There were plenty of flash-in-the-pan custom sizes that are gone now, but all except a couple of the standard sizes are still available in your average hardware store.

 

[ampdude]

The LED emitter itself is capable of lasting a long time. It's generally the electronics or cheap build of most LED lights that are the weak point.

 

[mbw_151]

Look at any car that's spent 10 years in Phoenix and extrapolate that wear to a flashlight. My 6P's aluminum body will be around, the anodized finish might be worse for the wear. The Pyrex lense will be OK and the Malkoff brass heat sink will be fine. The o-rings will be shot, maybe replacements will be available? The epoxy that pots the electronics, this is the nut of it. If that holds up, the module will work as it does today. If that stuff dries, cracks and fades away, eventually the module will die of corrosion. So if you want lights to last a long time, store them at stable temperature in a humidity and oxygen free environment if possible, just like any other piece of fine ancient art.

 

[StarHalo]

The o-rings will be shot, maybe replacements will be available?

O-rings are like wiper blades, you're supposed to replace them as needed; but unlike worn wipers that can merely make it hard to see, a worn o-ring can completely destroy your flashlight.

 

[RobertM]

As others have stated, the LED shouldn't have too much trouble lasting the lifetime of the light if it was well designed (heatsinking, drive current, etc.).
This is all assuming that chip weevils don't destroy the LED first.

 

[John_Galt]

Well, I think between technological progress, normal wear and tear, the possibility of loss or theft... No.

But as far as the lights themselves... Others have pointed out, they'll still continue to function as lights. They won't be the brightest, or the longest running (potentially), nor the most efficient.

But the LED's themselves should do fine. Remember, if they're not abused, they'll last and last and last. The 50,000 hour mark often touted is a common failure point for LED's, but IIRC, companies such as Cree use such ratings to state that the LED will be at 70% initial output at that point. So over time, the LED will just get gradually dimmer.

If one is concerned about this, they could seek to build a storage container for the long term storage of their favorite type of LED. Something that would protect against static electricity, heat, cold, sunlight, physical damage (ie: by the container falling off a shelf or being handled roughly) and plan to replace the LED's in their lights at some point in the future.

But, personally, i see the biggest problems being with the electronics that run the lights... Hopefully manufacturers try to use high-grade, durable components, but if something even as simple as a small capacior fails, it can cause major problems for the functionability of the light.

 

[jh333233]

The host may live forever but the guts would degrade, mostly to heat
LEDs can be stored indefinitely in optimum temperature and moisture, said CREE
Didnt know whether it still helds if the package is opened

 

[Stronic]

Most, if not all new led's are rated at 50,000 hour lifespans. The quick math says this is 5.7 years of "constant on". I don't know about everyone else but I have almost 20 really nice lights, all of which are less than 2 years old. It would seem to me that it's more likely that I'll either lose, damage beyond repair or experience other component failure before the LED expires, does this seem logical?
*
*
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When the CD just show up on the market they say it will serve for a 100y, but real usage shorten this lifitime to a 5-7 years...
I think nobody knows in real for how long LED will stay OK, but often reading on forums that after 2years of usage emmiters low down thear lumens significantly.

*

 

[LEDAdd1ct]

Are you talking about 5mm LEDs? Power LEDs? LEDs on 24/7? LEDs used intermittently in flashlights?

 

[jh333233]

A LED is a type of diode. I'm sure there are plenty of 40 year old transistor radios that are still operational. I'm sure LEDs are no different.

The diode may last for a long time, but not the fluorescence powder

 

[dudemar]

Didn't read most of the posts, but I'll add my 2 cents:

If you're purely talking about the lifetime of the LED, there are other factors to consider. Since the board, wiring, soldering, plastics, etc are necessary for the LED to function, one of those components are likely to fail well before the LED. The LED can only last as long as those parts are working. Therefore the manufacturer's lifetime rating for an LED is a bit misleading.

Realistically if you use your light every now and then and are good about replacing batteries, the rubber boot on your switch will probably be the only thing you have to worry about. Sure your light will be outdated 40 years from now, but you have to ask yourself "does it still work for me?" I know a lot of folks who are perfectly happy with their 20 year old Mag incan, or even a plain plastic incan flashlight that takes AA's. Did it work for them? You bet.

IMO the best LED lights of today are purchased by consumers, then sold secondhand when a better technology debuts. Manufacturers have no choice but to constantly upgrade their lights due to competition. When current technology gets old, it gets passed down to less expensive manufacturers and you have cheaper, more powerful and efficient lights.

I kinda like to compare it to luxury cars: all the fancy bells and whistles in my car from 13 years ago are now standard features in most sedans today.

 

[jh333233]

Didn't read most of the posts, but I'll add my 2 cents:

If you're purely talking about the lifetime of the LED, there are other factors to consider. Since the board, wiring, soldering, plastics, etc are necessary for the LED to function, one of those components are likely to fail well before the LED. Therefore, the LED can only last as long as those parts are working. IMO the manufacturer's lifetime rating for an LED is a bit misleading.

Realistically if you use your light every now and then and are good about replacing batteries, the rubber boot on your switch will probably be the only thing you have to worry about. Sure your light will be outdated 40 years from now, but you have to ask yourself "does it still work for me?" I know a lot of folks who are perfectly happy with their 20 year old Mag incan, or even a plain plastic incan flashlight that takes AA's. Did it work for them? You bet.

IMO the best LED lights of today are purchased by consumers, then sold secondhand when a better technology debuts. Manufacturers have no choice but to constantly upgrade their lights due to competition. When current technology gets old, it gets passed down to less expensive manufacturers and you have cheaper, more powerful and efficient lights.

I kinda like to compare it to luxury cars: all the fancy bells and whistles in my car from 13 years ago are now standard features in most sedans today.

I disagree with you
LED would be the first one to degrade in a flashlight if used properly
Compare with all the other things, the circuit would be fine even after 10 years, like phones
Or people's A2 is still running hot and fine
But the powder of LED is fragile to heat, unlike other electronic components
Prolonged exposure to heat would degrade it even faster.Where electronic components still be able to endure

Afterall, its just the business of the fluorescene powder

 

[dudemar]

I disagree with you
LED would be the first one to degrade in a flashlight if used properly
Compare with all the other things, the circuit would be fine even after 10 years, like phones
Or people's A2 is still running hot and fine
But the powder of LED is fragile to heat, unlike other electronic components
Prolonged exposure to heat would degrade it even faster.Where electronic components still be able to endure

Afterall, its just the business of the fluorescene powder

Actually, I disagree with you. Ever wonder why the tiny red LED prevalent on many electronic devices still powers on long after its host died? I think you get my point.

 

[jh333233]

Actually, I disagree with you. Ever wonder why the tiny red LED prevalent on many electronic devices still powers on long after its host died? I think you get my point.

I did not say small red led,
I meant the real-deal bright led we usually use on flashlight
One with a dome, inside is yellowish fluorescence powder, they degrade under heat rapidly
I guess you wont use tiny red on a flashlight, right?

 

[jh333233]

LED is extremely hot when in use, the powder is directly heated by it even we have heatsink
The golden wire inside is called LED junction(i guess), which is VERY hot
Touch a driving LED with bare hand and no heatsink mounted, youll know how hot it is, even with heatsink on, heat takes time to dissipate
So the powder will degrade before driver
While driver sits quite far away from the led, relatively.
And it usually hides below the heatsink, less likely to be heated up

 

[dudemar]

I did not say small red led,
I meant the real-deal bright led we usually use on flashlight
One with a dome, inside is yellowish fluorescence powder, they degrade under heat rapidly
I guess you wont use tiny red on a flashlight, right?

...and I guess Pila has no idea what they're talking about, right?

http://www.pilatorch.com/pdf/LED & Xenon Comparison 2011.pdf

It's on page 11.