AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack
- Thread starter andrewwynn
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dizzy
Flashlight Enthusiast
I am "in" as well. Thanks for all your hard work.
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
I can probably make a deal to sell w/o tailcup, but probably not really at a reduced cost.. the quantity is key to get the price reasonable for everybody, kind of like insurance, however i can show you the specs to lathe your own to save some time, definitely a few weeks.
The testing went very well for the current-limiting startup, very cool news, and i figured out a better way to install the pack, so that there are back to 'look ma, no wires'.. and even another benefit.. since the driver will now be on the inside near the head, it means that it's more protected and also that the lamp current no longer runs through the center rod (less power lost on that rod).
I haven't gotten the length spec for the prot. cells yet, and i have to fine-tune the current limiting for the MN21.. i was just doing testing so far with 1111 and 1185, those are indestructible at 7.2V.
-awr
The testing went very well for the current-limiting startup, very cool news, and i figured out a better way to install the pack, so that there are back to 'look ma, no wires'.. and even another benefit.. since the driver will now be on the inside near the head, it means that it's more protected and also that the lamp current no longer runs through the center rod (less power lost on that rod).
I haven't gotten the length spec for the prot. cells yet, and i have to fine-tune the current limiting for the MN21.. i was just doing testing so far with 1111 and 1185, those are indestructible at 7.2V.
-awr
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
well i can tell you that it sure made the M6 'fun'.. peopole will sure use them a lot more when they cost $3/hr vs $33/hr to operate.. guilt-free photons.
-awr
-awr
Lightraven
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2004
- Messages
- 1,170
I'll give Surefire this--they have historically designed their products around their target market, the military and law enforcement. They don't generally compromise for other customers, though I have seen some loosening up with the clicky tailcap issue.
There are many valid reasons within the military, and to a lesser extent, law enforcement to keep things simple with standard disposable batteries. Low cost and reusing/recycling things away have never been priorities for the military! And SteveC (CPFer) a cop who worked the New Orleans area after the hurricane said rechargeable lights, like the Stinger, worked exactly once and then never again, since power was not available to recharge the batteries. Granted, this was a rare event, but it is the rare events that we prepare for. Having your Stinger die (with no backup light) on the side of a mountain is a right of passage in my agency.
I think rechargeable packs for the M6 are a great idea and it's why I got my M6-R. I don't see Surefire as trying to make a huge profit on an off-the-wall commodity like camera batteries. I just see them as having only limited interest in the much larger general consumer market. I mean, this company makes combat knives, rifle suppressors, rifle forends, lasers, weaponlights and offers tactical training to LEOs only.
There are many valid reasons within the military, and to a lesser extent, law enforcement to keep things simple with standard disposable batteries. Low cost and reusing/recycling things away have never been priorities for the military! And SteveC (CPFer) a cop who worked the New Orleans area after the hurricane said rechargeable lights, like the Stinger, worked exactly once and then never again, since power was not available to recharge the batteries. Granted, this was a rare event, but it is the rare events that we prepare for. Having your Stinger die (with no backup light) on the side of a mountain is a right of passage in my agency.
I think rechargeable packs for the M6 are a great idea and it's why I got my M6-R. I don't see Surefire as trying to make a huge profit on an off-the-wall commodity like camera batteries. I just see them as having only limited interest in the much larger general consumer market. I mean, this company makes combat knives, rifle suppressors, rifle forends, lasers, weaponlights and offers tactical training to LEOs only.
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
In my version of 'the right way to do things'.. you would have a charging station in your truck.. even in the katrina event.. people had vehicles.. hell if you really needed a charge you could pull a battery out of a flooded car.. i'm sure plenty would have worked. I just don't buy into the concept of that somehow it's easier to procure 100s and 1000s of batteries than plug in a charger.. consdering that in the military.. hummers are everywhere! had they gone the rechargeable route.. put a button on to find out the current charge state of the battery.. and those cells would be like tic-tacs.. people could each have two packs and they would be completely interchangeable.. a very good case of inefficient use of resources.. the only case for throwaway batteries is where a light has little use. If a soldier only uses an M6 1 minute/day.. he should be using primary cells.
I have come to the conclusion that the lack of rechargeable pack for the M6 really was not much more than a simple planning decision where it was determined not worth the time and effort.. bottom line sort of thing.. it works exactly how they designed it, and have other bigger fish to fry so why re-invent it?
Good for me, at least i hope so.
-awr
I have come to the conclusion that the lack of rechargeable pack for the M6 really was not much more than a simple planning decision where it was determined not worth the time and effort.. bottom line sort of thing.. it works exactly how they designed it, and have other bigger fish to fry so why re-invent it?
Good for me, at least i hope so.
-awr
Lightraven
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2004
- Messages
- 1,170
Andrew,
In a more perfect world, especially outside wasteful inefficient government bureaucracies, there would be little need for wasteful and environmentally harmful disposable batteries.
Here was my first semi-hypothetical scenario. CIA, Air Force forward air controllers and Green Berets are on the ground in Afghanistan in 12/2001. They are using Surefire M6 (rechargeable prototype) and Inova X5 flashlights with some IR lights for use with the goggles. They are living in a camp with the Northern Alliance and moving by horseback. They request resupply of flashlight batteries by a parachute drop.
Somewhere in Tajikistan, a supply sergeant has not kept the rechargeable M6 battery packs plugged into the wall and ready to go. He unplugged them for his TV, X-box, DVD player and boom box. Whoops. He isn't overly diligent. The C-5 is fueling on the tarmac and he doesn't have time, so he loads up a crate of CR123s and solves his immediate problem. Time for a beer from his mini refrigerator!
The guys in Afghanistan are happy because the 123s go in the Inova and the M6. Interoperability. Would be nice if the night vision goggles and satellite radio worked with them too, but you can't have everything.
Anyway, here's an example from my life. I go into the armory and request a Maxabeam spotlight. After some grumbling about what exactly I'm talking about, I point it out. The battery is sitting in the case, having never been charged. I recommend that some of these lights be kept charged and get a reply like, "Yeah, good idea. Somebody ought to do that." It never is. So, I run the battery charger to my cigarette lighter of my vehicle while I still have daylight. I smell burning plastic and pull the charging plug out. The plug has melted down. That Maxa now cannot be recharged in a vehicle until it gets a replacement plug. It never will.
Keeping equipment batteries charged gets a little harder the further you get from civilization. Since most people only have one charger, it makes charging multiple batteries a bit tricky, especially if you have to be somewhere else. Also, you have multiple pieces of equipment competing for the car battery--laptop computers, cell phone chargers. I have noticed that vehicles blow cigarette lighter fuses frequently when charging things.
These are esoteric concerns, perhaps, and can be dealt with in one way or another. After all, my walkie talkie battery is rechargeable. I'm not sure how the cops in New Orleans dealt with that.
In a more perfect world, especially outside wasteful inefficient government bureaucracies, there would be little need for wasteful and environmentally harmful disposable batteries.
Here was my first semi-hypothetical scenario. CIA, Air Force forward air controllers and Green Berets are on the ground in Afghanistan in 12/2001. They are using Surefire M6 (rechargeable prototype) and Inova X5 flashlights with some IR lights for use with the goggles. They are living in a camp with the Northern Alliance and moving by horseback. They request resupply of flashlight batteries by a parachute drop.
Somewhere in Tajikistan, a supply sergeant has not kept the rechargeable M6 battery packs plugged into the wall and ready to go. He unplugged them for his TV, X-box, DVD player and boom box. Whoops. He isn't overly diligent. The C-5 is fueling on the tarmac and he doesn't have time, so he loads up a crate of CR123s and solves his immediate problem. Time for a beer from his mini refrigerator!
The guys in Afghanistan are happy because the 123s go in the Inova and the M6. Interoperability. Would be nice if the night vision goggles and satellite radio worked with them too, but you can't have everything.
Anyway, here's an example from my life. I go into the armory and request a Maxabeam spotlight. After some grumbling about what exactly I'm talking about, I point it out. The battery is sitting in the case, having never been charged. I recommend that some of these lights be kept charged and get a reply like, "Yeah, good idea. Somebody ought to do that." It never is. So, I run the battery charger to my cigarette lighter of my vehicle while I still have daylight. I smell burning plastic and pull the charging plug out. The plug has melted down. That Maxa now cannot be recharged in a vehicle until it gets a replacement plug. It never will.
Keeping equipment batteries charged gets a little harder the further you get from civilization. Since most people only have one charger, it makes charging multiple batteries a bit tricky, especially if you have to be somewhere else. Also, you have multiple pieces of equipment competing for the car battery--laptop computers, cell phone chargers. I have noticed that vehicles blow cigarette lighter fuses frequently when charging things.
These are esoteric concerns, perhaps, and can be dealt with in one way or another. After all, my walkie talkie battery is rechargeable. I'm not sure how the cops in New Orleans dealt with that.
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
all good stuff.. i'll have you note.. that literally at this very second i'm fine-tuning the tailcup on the HDM6 to accept a long spring that will let you use the MB20 as a backup in case of situations like you describe. I find it very curious that people have *no problem* dealing with keeping their cell phone charged.. 'defense rests'. :-D
back on topic.. so the test went extremely well for the current/voltage limit.. i'm going to have to fine-tune the low-voltage cutout solution for the HDM6.. since the shutdown voltage based on the 92% forumula shuts off the light about exactly at the running level of the HOLA.. it probably would work but it will give fits, so i'm working on a different solution using a bit of a patch that will let me dial in a shut down voltage.. the current tester works like this.. when the voltage drops to the shutdown voltage.. the light will dramatically dim.. like 80% drop in output.. like a 'brown out'. Unfortunately when it gets to that state it will still be drawing some considerable current, so it's not a 'hands free' solution.. you will want to turn off the light relatively soon after the light does into 'i'm done' mode..
There is a chance i'll get the chip from the BAM! on the vTwo of the hotdriver, not sure if there is time or space for it.. but it would let me set the shutdown voltage independent of operational voltage.. obviously it's nice, but the 92% rule works better most of the time.. it's far more complicated to deal with the extra setting, but for the HDM6 i will be definitely doing this since the two-bulb situation throws a wrinkle in the normal M.O.
So.. anyhow.. the wires were too long on the bench to get things set exactly but i was able to absolutely do 'proof of concept'.. the thing works absoultely stunningly well! I was able to put the MN21 on and get about 5A and 6.8V to the lamp.. and with doing nothing other than changing to the MN20 lamp.. it bumped up to 7.2V and 2.5A.
The MN21 soft-starts with a beautiful 's-curve' voltage ramp that takes about 300-400msec.. that might change a little bit when it's in the lamp and no 2' of wires.
I will be hand-tweaking each driver to run at an appropriate level for the MN21 and the MN20 will be as high as i can effectively set it.. 7.2V is drop dead gorgeous.. even if it's more in the middle of the output of the toss-away cells.
You can expect to see a BST open in the next 3 days.
back on topic.. so the test went extremely well for the current/voltage limit.. i'm going to have to fine-tune the low-voltage cutout solution for the HDM6.. since the shutdown voltage based on the 92% forumula shuts off the light about exactly at the running level of the HOLA.. it probably would work but it will give fits, so i'm working on a different solution using a bit of a patch that will let me dial in a shut down voltage.. the current tester works like this.. when the voltage drops to the shutdown voltage.. the light will dramatically dim.. like 80% drop in output.. like a 'brown out'. Unfortunately when it gets to that state it will still be drawing some considerable current, so it's not a 'hands free' solution.. you will want to turn off the light relatively soon after the light does into 'i'm done' mode..
There is a chance i'll get the chip from the BAM! on the vTwo of the hotdriver, not sure if there is time or space for it.. but it would let me set the shutdown voltage independent of operational voltage.. obviously it's nice, but the 92% rule works better most of the time.. it's far more complicated to deal with the extra setting, but for the HDM6 i will be definitely doing this since the two-bulb situation throws a wrinkle in the normal M.O.
So.. anyhow.. the wires were too long on the bench to get things set exactly but i was able to absolutely do 'proof of concept'.. the thing works absoultely stunningly well! I was able to put the MN21 on and get about 5A and 6.8V to the lamp.. and with doing nothing other than changing to the MN20 lamp.. it bumped up to 7.2V and 2.5A.
The MN21 soft-starts with a beautiful 's-curve' voltage ramp that takes about 300-400msec.. that might change a little bit when it's in the lamp and no 2' of wires.
I will be hand-tweaking each driver to run at an appropriate level for the MN21 and the MN20 will be as high as i can effectively set it.. 7.2V is drop dead gorgeous.. even if it's more in the middle of the output of the toss-away cells.
You can expect to see a BST open in the next 3 days.
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
OK.. got the chip worked into the design for low-voltage cutout.. i traded the space for the op-amp used for the high-temp cutout since it's a moot point with the M6 solution since the worst-case power dissipation is not high enough to cause a problem, and will install an incredible little chip for low-voltage setting.. it enables a deeper draw on the batteries, and you'll actually get to see dimming to know the batteries are going low before shutdown (probably not much of a warning,, maybe a minute, but it will be there!).
The circuit board is final.. the 'vTwo' of the hotdriver. I will make a write up in BST either tonight or tomorrow opening up a pre-sale for the HDM6. I have the parts list close enough that i will be able to set the prices, and unless there is some big change in the cost of batteries, i don't expect any changes.
It was reaaallly tricky to re-do the circuit board because i want to be able to use it in several possibilities:
1) totally basic.. only the 92% shutdown.
3) basic, but with a configurable shutdown
2) high-temp and with the 92% shutdown
4) high-precision low-voltage shutdown (but no high-temp).
using the exact same ckt board for all those posed a bunch of problems, especially since there are no standards of where the POWER should be, and though the op-amp and the low-volt chip are the same size and the ground and inputs share the same feet.. there is an extra foot on the low-volt chip and the Power and Output are BACKWARDS.. gee, thanks guys!
in any event i got it figured out.. i have to put a couple resistors on sideways but it's a very clever solution i love it.
I will be able to get the boards ordered as soon as a few presales are taken in, and more importantly the machined part ordered.. fortunately since it will be 100% lathe operation, it will take only bout 25 working days vs 45 working days (typical for milling).. turnaround.. they will give me an estimated date as soon as i place the order. It will not take as long to get any of the other parts so i plan to have the packs done a week or more in advance of the metal parts so we can box up 10+/day when the metal part comes in.
I was playing with the prototype on the bench again today and it was just a thrill to go from the MN20 to the MN21 back and forth and watch it do its thing.. especially to watch the o-scope traces.. there can be little doubt the bulb life will be extended dramatically with the startup current being limited to 5A on the MN21! (nice to hear with $30 lamps!).
Oh.. added bonus for vTwo of the driver.. besides the two dials to tweak the output voltage.. it will have a third to set the current output.. and one more really nice bonus.. a FUSE!. Well it turns out i needed a sense resistor.. and by sheer coincidence.. the 6.3A fuse is perfect.. and since the driver is limiting the output to 5.0A.. no real spike.. no need for a higher amperage fuse (which wouldn't work anyhow.. i need the resistance of the 6.3A fuse).
The design of the battery pack encloses virtually all contacts that can be a problem.. i'm actually planning the meanest test possible on such a power pack.. rubbing steel wool on all open surfaces.. try that on a modamag or fivemega power pack.. yikes! (yes i know simple understanding would tell you NOT to do such a thing).. but i am honestly curious to figure out if i'm correct about my design being virtually short-proof.
My other battery packs.. like FM and MM.. very short-prone.. considering that the center rod is + and the top and bottom both have grounded bolts.. it would fail that test instantly.. i've sparked some of my prototype packs installing them into the body (fortunately not remotely possible with my latest prototypes or my production packs).. however.. they still will have a charging jack on the back which can be shorted with something just the wrong shape and conductive.
So.. once i get the sales thread online.. i will wait a few days to gather the *true* interest so i know how many metal parts to order, i don't want hundreds of paper weights that look like the inside of an M6!
Oh, just in-case anybody missed it or forgot.. anybody on JSs M6-R list can transfer to the HDM6 list and will retain their shipping order (it will be mostly a moot point.. i expect them all to ship within 1 week.. maybe 2 if sales are double my highest anticipation)... however as usual, i will ship in order of paypal date, even in the case of the paypal to JS.
The circuit board is final.. the 'vTwo' of the hotdriver. I will make a write up in BST either tonight or tomorrow opening up a pre-sale for the HDM6. I have the parts list close enough that i will be able to set the prices, and unless there is some big change in the cost of batteries, i don't expect any changes.
It was reaaallly tricky to re-do the circuit board because i want to be able to use it in several possibilities:
1) totally basic.. only the 92% shutdown.
3) basic, but with a configurable shutdown
2) high-temp and with the 92% shutdown
4) high-precision low-voltage shutdown (but no high-temp).
using the exact same ckt board for all those posed a bunch of problems, especially since there are no standards of where the POWER should be, and though the op-amp and the low-volt chip are the same size and the ground and inputs share the same feet.. there is an extra foot on the low-volt chip and the Power and Output are BACKWARDS.. gee, thanks guys!
in any event i got it figured out.. i have to put a couple resistors on sideways but it's a very clever solution i love it.
I will be able to get the boards ordered as soon as a few presales are taken in, and more importantly the machined part ordered.. fortunately since it will be 100% lathe operation, it will take only bout 25 working days vs 45 working days (typical for milling).. turnaround.. they will give me an estimated date as soon as i place the order. It will not take as long to get any of the other parts so i plan to have the packs done a week or more in advance of the metal parts so we can box up 10+/day when the metal part comes in.
I was playing with the prototype on the bench again today and it was just a thrill to go from the MN20 to the MN21 back and forth and watch it do its thing.. especially to watch the o-scope traces.. there can be little doubt the bulb life will be extended dramatically with the startup current being limited to 5A on the MN21! (nice to hear with $30 lamps!).
Oh.. added bonus for vTwo of the driver.. besides the two dials to tweak the output voltage.. it will have a third to set the current output.. and one more really nice bonus.. a FUSE!. Well it turns out i needed a sense resistor.. and by sheer coincidence.. the 6.3A fuse is perfect.. and since the driver is limiting the output to 5.0A.. no real spike.. no need for a higher amperage fuse (which wouldn't work anyhow.. i need the resistance of the 6.3A fuse).
The design of the battery pack encloses virtually all contacts that can be a problem.. i'm actually planning the meanest test possible on such a power pack.. rubbing steel wool on all open surfaces.. try that on a modamag or fivemega power pack.. yikes! (yes i know simple understanding would tell you NOT to do such a thing).. but i am honestly curious to figure out if i'm correct about my design being virtually short-proof.
My other battery packs.. like FM and MM.. very short-prone.. considering that the center rod is + and the top and bottom both have grounded bolts.. it would fail that test instantly.. i've sparked some of my prototype packs installing them into the body (fortunately not remotely possible with my latest prototypes or my production packs).. however.. they still will have a charging jack on the back which can be shorted with something just the wrong shape and conductive.
So.. once i get the sales thread online.. i will wait a few days to gather the *true* interest so i know how many metal parts to order, i don't want hundreds of paper weights that look like the inside of an M6!
Oh, just in-case anybody missed it or forgot.. anybody on JSs M6-R list can transfer to the HDM6 list and will retain their shipping order (it will be mostly a moot point.. i expect them all to ship within 1 week.. maybe 2 if sales are double my highest anticipation)... however as usual, i will ship in order of paypal date, even in the case of the paypal to JS.
wquiles
Flashaholic
Outstanding - thanks for the upodate Andrew
How does it work with the MN20? What needs adjusted to switch from MN21 to MN20 and viceversa?
Will
How does it work with the MN20? What needs adjusted to switch from MN21 to MN20 and viceversa?
Will
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
Funny you should ask.. it is absolutely automatic.. you can take the head off, change lamps and put the head back on.. turn on the light.. blamo.. done. It's one of the best parts of this design, and it's a really cool twist of the fate of physics and battery chemistry how it works.
Explanation: Since the batteries are notorious for dropping voltage as the current goes up.. if you want to get more POWER out of the batteries, it necessitates that the voltage will be lower and the current will be higher.
So.. the brilliance of the setup with the hotdriver is this:
It has two settings.. independent of each other.. CURRENT and VOLTAGE.. whichever hits first wins.
So.. the HDM6 will be set up for about 4.95A max and about 7.3V max..
When you put in an MN20 lamp.. the voltage will go right up to 7.3V.. (and slowly decline as batteries die.. but it will stay at about 7.2V most of the battery life.. you will not see much dimming for the first 60-70 minutes.. estimated runtime is as much as 86 minutes with LOLA..
When you put in an MN21 lamp.. the voltage will attempt to get to 7.3V.. but when it gets to about 6.7-6.8V.. it will find that it's at 4.95A and stay right there.
the startup is much faster with the LOLA but i'm still fine-tuning the startup solution with the HDM6.
I had to invent a different solution for shutdown and have the circuit board design done, just need to triple check all the traces and it's a done deal!
here are a few images from my last night allnighter fixing startup issues with hotdrivers:
Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs vLamp
Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs current..
Here is the HOLA startup curve.
It's a bit tricky to read the current on the LOLA.. current starts very low and goes up and ends up being the top trace...it might seem like that's an excessive spike, but it's about 50% lower than w/o soft start, and probably about 1/4 to 1/6th the POWER spike.. because power is current x voltage.. and where the current spike is high, the voltage is very low... it's nearly ideal to start this way because it gives you a very rapid start while still bulb-saving.
Since the driver didn't have enough voltage over head to run the HOLA properly (too many long wires on the bench.. i need to make some 14ga jumpers!).. I'm going to show you the osram 62138 startup curve:
You can see that the current limit is 'fuzzy'.. you can actually hear it.. there is an oscillation that happens at startup, probably having to do with the way that voltage coming in changes from the current demand difference.. you can hear a bit of a 'squeak' during that phase if you listen very close.
It's absolutely nothing to worry about.. every hotdriver ever made has done this.. there were a couple version (mark6 comes to mind) that had an instability issue like newbie mentioned... mark 7 introduced a capacitor on the gate of the transistor that eliminated the instability, and it's worked awesome ever since.
Even with the model that had the instability.. it could only be found one way.. by turning off the light, and then before it was done cooling off.. try to press the light back on.. about 1 out of 10 times you could get it to try to regulate at about 1/2 voltage.. of course.. with a mag85, it could probably do that for a minute or two before heat became an issue.. and it was a very unstable equilibrium and would last 5 seconds usually and turn on fully.
I tried to let the mag138 just work its way out of the stuck position and it never did.. the FET got so hot it desoldered itself! that was the motivating issue i needed to fix it and born was mark7.. and what became the vOne hotdriver.
I've never seen a LOLA running before so i can't really compare. My understanding is that you'll get nearly 7.4V with fresh batteries and LOLA, so the hotdriver might be slightly dimmer, but the light was as white and brilliant as i could ever have expected of any light when running on the bench. (so far the LOLA tests were done from a driver that is outside the body).. but the lamp was inside the head, so i could aim the beam around and it was gorgeous!
I hope i can sell a bunch of these, i think i just might buy an M6 now.. never in a million years would i have before a solution like Hotdriver M6. So much for profits on this project :-D
Oh.. i have a decision to make.. I can either keep the temp-sensor and use a big of a 'hack' to make low-voltage cutout work.. i still have to run down a set of batteries to see how it really behaves.. turning a dial on the power supply doesn't really behave how a battery does.. or i can kill the temp sensor and replace it with the really kickbutt low-volt sensor from the BAM!
I will be doing testing of both possibilities and i've already designed the vTwo hotdriver board to accommodate either possibility. The power drop on the FET is insignificant at HALF of that with the 1274 solutions, so i'm confident it wont be a problem, totally a non-issue... other than ONE possible example.. use in extreme heat, like desert conditions.. so.. I'm leaning heavily toward making them all with the precision low-voltage and no high temp cutout.. since they will all be used in the same device unlike the standard hotdrivers which have myriad possibilities including one with runtimes well over an hour.
If somebody needs high-temp because of climate, i can easily make a variation.. there might be some 'training' involving paying attention to the light running out.. with the hack.. the lamp will dim DRAMATICALLY but it will try to run at like 1/2 power.. putting a LOT of heat on the FET.. i still need to test the hack out in a real world test, so it might be a moot point.. the hack might work just about as good as the precision LV chip and i can keep the high-temp on all of them.
You won't have to decide when you order.. i will get a 'details' form after i make a batch of a few tester models that can be used for a good month while waiting for the machined parts and batteries and such to come in.. that way if there are any tweaks needed to be done, that can happen before the mass production, which will start about 3-4 weeks after the opening of the sale. (it should be about 5-6 weeks for the machined parts to get back).
Thanks to wquiles for machining the tailcup prototype.. and lending me his cherished M6 for fitting the HDM6. I think that machining job might have been the first one he did 'for real' almost certainly. it came out amazing.. i needed to tweak a bit of it.. was too tight.. but that was perfect.. i got to be able to update my model for the full run!
So.. 'game on'. .. get those paypal triggers ready.. i'm planning to get the pack back into the light by this weekend, and once the operation is confirmed, open up a sales thread on BST.
-awr
Explanation: Since the batteries are notorious for dropping voltage as the current goes up.. if you want to get more POWER out of the batteries, it necessitates that the voltage will be lower and the current will be higher.
So.. the brilliance of the setup with the hotdriver is this:
It has two settings.. independent of each other.. CURRENT and VOLTAGE.. whichever hits first wins.
So.. the HDM6 will be set up for about 4.95A max and about 7.3V max..
When you put in an MN20 lamp.. the voltage will go right up to 7.3V.. (and slowly decline as batteries die.. but it will stay at about 7.2V most of the battery life.. you will not see much dimming for the first 60-70 minutes.. estimated runtime is as much as 86 minutes with LOLA..
When you put in an MN21 lamp.. the voltage will attempt to get to 7.3V.. but when it gets to about 6.7-6.8V.. it will find that it's at 4.95A and stay right there.
the startup is much faster with the LOLA but i'm still fine-tuning the startup solution with the HDM6.
I had to invent a different solution for shutdown and have the circuit board design done, just need to triple check all the traces and it's a done deal!
here are a few images from my last night allnighter fixing startup issues with hotdrivers:
Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs vLamp
Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs current..
Here is the HOLA startup curve.
It's a bit tricky to read the current on the LOLA.. current starts very low and goes up and ends up being the top trace...it might seem like that's an excessive spike, but it's about 50% lower than w/o soft start, and probably about 1/4 to 1/6th the POWER spike.. because power is current x voltage.. and where the current spike is high, the voltage is very low... it's nearly ideal to start this way because it gives you a very rapid start while still bulb-saving.
Since the driver didn't have enough voltage over head to run the HOLA properly (too many long wires on the bench.. i need to make some 14ga jumpers!).. I'm going to show you the osram 62138 startup curve:
You can see that the current limit is 'fuzzy'.. you can actually hear it.. there is an oscillation that happens at startup, probably having to do with the way that voltage coming in changes from the current demand difference.. you can hear a bit of a 'squeak' during that phase if you listen very close.
It's absolutely nothing to worry about.. every hotdriver ever made has done this.. there were a couple version (mark6 comes to mind) that had an instability issue like newbie mentioned... mark 7 introduced a capacitor on the gate of the transistor that eliminated the instability, and it's worked awesome ever since.
Even with the model that had the instability.. it could only be found one way.. by turning off the light, and then before it was done cooling off.. try to press the light back on.. about 1 out of 10 times you could get it to try to regulate at about 1/2 voltage.. of course.. with a mag85, it could probably do that for a minute or two before heat became an issue.. and it was a very unstable equilibrium and would last 5 seconds usually and turn on fully.
I tried to let the mag138 just work its way out of the stuck position and it never did.. the FET got so hot it desoldered itself! that was the motivating issue i needed to fix it and born was mark7.. and what became the vOne hotdriver.
I've never seen a LOLA running before so i can't really compare. My understanding is that you'll get nearly 7.4V with fresh batteries and LOLA, so the hotdriver might be slightly dimmer, but the light was as white and brilliant as i could ever have expected of any light when running on the bench. (so far the LOLA tests were done from a driver that is outside the body).. but the lamp was inside the head, so i could aim the beam around and it was gorgeous!
I hope i can sell a bunch of these, i think i just might buy an M6 now.. never in a million years would i have before a solution like Hotdriver M6. So much for profits on this project :-D
Oh.. i have a decision to make.. I can either keep the temp-sensor and use a big of a 'hack' to make low-voltage cutout work.. i still have to run down a set of batteries to see how it really behaves.. turning a dial on the power supply doesn't really behave how a battery does.. or i can kill the temp sensor and replace it with the really kickbutt low-volt sensor from the BAM!
I will be doing testing of both possibilities and i've already designed the vTwo hotdriver board to accommodate either possibility. The power drop on the FET is insignificant at HALF of that with the 1274 solutions, so i'm confident it wont be a problem, totally a non-issue... other than ONE possible example.. use in extreme heat, like desert conditions.. so.. I'm leaning heavily toward making them all with the precision low-voltage and no high temp cutout.. since they will all be used in the same device unlike the standard hotdrivers which have myriad possibilities including one with runtimes well over an hour.
If somebody needs high-temp because of climate, i can easily make a variation.. there might be some 'training' involving paying attention to the light running out.. with the hack.. the lamp will dim DRAMATICALLY but it will try to run at like 1/2 power.. putting a LOT of heat on the FET.. i still need to test the hack out in a real world test, so it might be a moot point.. the hack might work just about as good as the precision LV chip and i can keep the high-temp on all of them.
You won't have to decide when you order.. i will get a 'details' form after i make a batch of a few tester models that can be used for a good month while waiting for the machined parts and batteries and such to come in.. that way if there are any tweaks needed to be done, that can happen before the mass production, which will start about 3-4 weeks after the opening of the sale. (it should be about 5-6 weeks for the machined parts to get back).
Thanks to wquiles for machining the tailcup prototype.. and lending me his cherished M6 for fitting the HDM6. I think that machining job might have been the first one he did 'for real' almost certainly. it came out amazing.. i needed to tweak a bit of it.. was too tight.. but that was perfect.. i got to be able to update my model for the full run!
So.. 'game on'. .. get those paypal triggers ready.. i'm planning to get the pack back into the light by this weekend, and once the operation is confirmed, open up a sales thread on BST.
-awr
wquiles
Flashaholic
Thanks Andrew - glad I was able to help a little
Your project for the M6 is trully amazing
Will
Your project for the M6 is trully amazing
Will
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
Here's the latest computer model of the HDM6.
petrev
Flashlight Enthusiast
Hi
Great work - when do you get to sleep and eat . . . ?
Pic shows HD-reversed ref prototype photos !
Is that to do with interchangeability ?
Cheers Pete
Great work - when do you get to sleep and eat . . . ?
Pic shows HD-reversed ref prototype photos !
Is that to do with interchangeability ?
Cheers Pete
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
yes, the 'upside down' hotdriver has two purposes.. (1) protects the chips and (2) allows the swapping of the board.. notice there are TWO nuts.. one holding the battery pack together and one holding the driver board on...oops maybe the FET is hiding the lower nut, sorry.. very observant though.. there is a (3) i guess also.. makes for a very simple ground contact since there is a nice ground pad on the back of the hotdriver.
sometimes don't sleep or eat.
-awr
sometimes don't sleep or eat.
-awr
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
Really cool update!
so i think i mentioned finding the magic chip that would let me set the shutdown voltage appropriate for the batteries independent of lamp voltage, and i even amazingly enough figured out how to use the same exact pads as the opamp for the high-temp ckt, but that of course would have meant trading the option.
Well.. today i figured out how to jamp pack a second op-amp onto the board, and am almost done with the PCB layout.. it will open up some really nice options for the normal hotdriver, but more importantly for this thread.. means i can have the custom low-volt shutdown *and* high-temp protection, as unlikely as that would be needed with the M6 solution.. if used in a high ambient temp environment, it's not all that unlikely.. and with a light like the top of the line M6... I say.. go for the gold.
So.. very good news.. looks like i'm just about done with the RND and only a couple days behind schedule, i should have a BST up by monday night.
Based on how much work it took to re-work the board to make both the high-temp and the custom low-volt work, and the obvious fact it takes more parts and resources to make, i might add $5 to my original estimated prices, they will still literally pay for themselves in FOUR CHARGES folks, how crazy is that? FOUR charges! (1.1 if you buy your cells at wallmart). Four charges did i say four charges? I guess that still just blows my mind!
-awr
ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week.
-awr
so i think i mentioned finding the magic chip that would let me set the shutdown voltage appropriate for the batteries independent of lamp voltage, and i even amazingly enough figured out how to use the same exact pads as the opamp for the high-temp ckt, but that of course would have meant trading the option.
Well.. today i figured out how to jamp pack a second op-amp onto the board, and am almost done with the PCB layout.. it will open up some really nice options for the normal hotdriver, but more importantly for this thread.. means i can have the custom low-volt shutdown *and* high-temp protection, as unlikely as that would be needed with the M6 solution.. if used in a high ambient temp environment, it's not all that unlikely.. and with a light like the top of the line M6... I say.. go for the gold.
So.. very good news.. looks like i'm just about done with the RND and only a couple days behind schedule, i should have a BST up by monday night.
Based on how much work it took to re-work the board to make both the high-temp and the custom low-volt work, and the obvious fact it takes more parts and resources to make, i might add $5 to my original estimated prices, they will still literally pay for themselves in FOUR CHARGES folks, how crazy is that? FOUR charges! (1.1 if you buy your cells at wallmart). Four charges did i say four charges? I guess that still just blows my mind!
-awr
ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week.
-awr
andrewwynn
Flashlight Enthusiast
OK.. the sales thread has opened HERE. Please keep conversation on this thread.
Time to take the 'real' poll.
-awr
Time to take the 'real' poll.
-awr
wquiles
Flashaholic
Way to go Andrew :rock:andrewwynn said:
Will
cnee
Newly Enlightened
Since the MN20 is so hard to come by these days, I am using the MN16 instead in my M6 when I don't need to use the HOLA. Would HDM6 work with the MN16?
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