Backup lamp options

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budynabuick

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Budynabuick, did you HAVE to quote his entire post? Makes us Android users scroll too much for too little new info.


No, I didn't. But since I have been reading this forum for over 6 mo and have seen many long (even longer) quotes "quoted" and never saw this as a issue I didn't think it was a big deal. I did actually start to trim the quote (thought I did) down but obviously did not. My apologies for any improprieties. Are there any guide lines as to what constitutes too long of a quote (like how many lines?) Is there a set number of lines one may use in a quote? Would just like to have a clear idea of just what constitutes to much quote so I may stick within the guide lines. The way it appears now it seems pretty arbitrarily enforced. Thanks

Keith, who work"s at not being rude
 

Alaric Darconville

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So would that bulb from Lowes by OK to use in my CHMSL, or should I shop the "automotive" world for one?
I saw those bulbs last night (was at a Lowe's looking for other stuff), the filament shape appeared to be the same as in the normal 921s. The package only 'promised' 3000hrs, but even that's quite an improvement over the normal 921s. A bit pricy compared to the standards, too! Whether it's a real improvement, I really couldn't say, but I would doubt that it's that bad that it'd hinder the performance of the CHMSL.

My CHMSL shouldnt be subject to too much vibration, as it is mounted on the rear deck inside the car {a smooth riding, heavy q45}

Yet you've replaced that bulb frequently. The CHMSL *does* get a lot of use, with lots of "state changes" (especially if you rapidly tap the brake pedal to warn others behind you), but perhaps a longer-lived bulb (but not a "long life" bulb) could help. You don't, by any chance, start the car with your foot on the brake pedal, do you?
 

-Virgil-

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what constitutes too long of a quote

There is no go/no-go number of lines. On this or any other forum, it is polite to quote only enough to make it clear exactly whom or what you're responding to, if it's not clear without a quote. As you can see, in this post I have quoted seven of your words. And I did so only to provide an example; this response would not have been confusing or unclear if I had quoted nothing at all. Thanks for playing along!
 

Genes

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What constitutes "illegal"? I work with manufacturers of aftermarket gear of all sorts for cars. If you check with a local law firm that specializes in automotive standards, you will immediately find that there are two standards; Federal and state. Once you enter that battlefield, you realize that the Federal Gov't believes its standards supersede all state standards. Many states, however, believe that is not the case and the individual states set their own standards which conflict with the Federal ones. This has gone on for decades. I.E. some states allow "pulsed" brake lights others go along with Federal guidelines that apparently prohibit such operation. A big issue to be aware of is if you are involved in any automotive litigation (auto accident) and the opposing legal firm finds that your vehicle's equipment has been changed from Federal standards; well, you now have your hands full. The variations on this theme are endless.
 

Alaric Darconville

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I work with manufacturers of aftermarket gear of all sorts for cars.
Many makers of aftermarket gear run afoul of the law, by producing accesories and "upgrades" that render regulated vehicle equipment inoperative. They attempt to get around the laws by either citing that a particular state permits it, or that it's for "off-road use only" (which has no legal meaning), or for "agricultural equipment".

If you check with a local law firm that specializes in automotive standards, you will immediately find that there are two standards; Federal and state. Once you enter that battlefield, you realize that the Federal Gov't believes its standards supersede all state standards.
Concerning regulated vehicle equipment, the Federal standards do.

Many states, however, believe that is not the case and the individual states set their own standards which conflict with the Federal ones. This has gone on for decades. I.E. some states allow "pulsed" brake lights others go along with Federal guidelines that apparently prohibit such operation.
The NHTSA has ruled that brake lights MUST be steady-burning. Not flashing, not pulsed. These aren't "guidelines", they are a matter of law.
 

Qship1996

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You don't, by any chance, start the car with your foot on the brake pedal, do you?


Every.Single.Time. Maybe it is the electrical surge/spike weakening the filament. Interesting it doesnt seem to affect the life of the main brake light bulbs though?
 

Alaric Darconville

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You don't, by any chance, start the car with your foot on the brake pedal, do you?

Every.Single.Time. Maybe it is the electrical surge/spike weakening the filament.

It's almost certainly it. (Did I call it, or what?)

The normal stop lights are 1157s, I believe. While the 921s are rated for 300hrs, the major filaments on the 1157s are rated at 1200hrs. This could result in a higher longevity even under the surge conditions that exist when starting with your foot on the brake. Keep your foot off the brake when starting the engine! :)
 

Alaric Darconville

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I'd been taught that [having the foot on the brake when starting the engine] is required.
Strange, I've only been aware of the neutral safety switch or clutch interlock. My '76 Corolla didn't even have a clutch interlock, which was actually useful when the clutch master cylinder went out. It became a partial zero-emission hybrid vehicle of sorts.

Tonight I'll try this after work - if I remember to fight down the reflex!
If it doesn't start with your foot off the brake, but you're still in park or neutral (or have the clutch in), that'd just boggle my mind. I just need to brake before I can take the car out of park, but it otherwise starts (makes leaning in through the window to start the car tons easier).
 

-Virgil-

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What constitutes "illegal"?

That question has been answered in this and other threads pretty comprehensively. Many organizations and individuals with a personal or financial interest in selling, installing, or using illegal equipment like to prefer their own creative and non-facts-based ideas of what "illegal" means.

there are two standards; Federal and state.

Quite true.

the Federal Gov't believes its standards supersede all state standards. Many states, however, believe that is not the case and the individual states set their own standards which conflict with the Federal ones. This has gone on for decades

Nope, but that misunderstanding is where a lot of those self-serving imaginative ideas of what "illegal" means take root.

The principle of federal preemption is very simple: in the case of any vehicle component, system, or design feature that is Federally regulated, any provision of any state standard is null and void to whatever extent it differs from the applicable provisions of the applicable federal standard. That is not a matter of "belief" on the part of the Federal Government, it is a matter of black-and-white, unambiguous Federal law, to wit: Under 15 U.S.C. 1392(d), "Whenever a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (…) is in effect, no state or political subdivision of a state shall have any authority either to establish or to continue in effect with respect to any motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment any safety standard applicable to the same aspect of performance of such vehicle or item of equipment which is not identical to the Federal standard."

The legal machinations are not over whether this is or isn't law -- it is. The machinations are over enforcement. When Oregon and Washington and a few other states (Alaska, perhaps, I'd need to refresh my recall) altered their vehicle lighting codes in the mid-1970s to permit the use of ECE headlamps as an alternative to the US headlamps required by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, there was indeed a pitched war of words between those states' legislatures and NHTSA. The debate wasn't centered around any question, notion, or doubt about the presence, meaning, or legitimacy of the federal preemption provisions of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966 as cited above. The states changed their statutes, the Feds advised the states that importation, distribution, sale (and installation by regulated parties) of vehicle equipment noncompliant with the Federal standards remained a Federal crime subject to civil penalties and Customs seizure, etc., regardless of what the states put in their codes. The states said "We're not going to enforce that." The Feds said "You don't have to; we'll be watching the ports." And they did. Many containerloads of noncompliant headlamps were seized and destroyed by US Customs. Some got through; such is the nature of life. Motorists in Oregon, Washington, and Alaska didn't have much difficulty getting hold of ECE headlamps if they wanted them, and even though Oregon changed their code to align fully with FMVSS 108 some years ago (deleting the provisions permitting ECE headlamps), Oregon motorists still don't have difficulty getting ECE headlamps and still don't get tickets for them. The state chooses not to enforce.

The same is true today with "HID kits". They're Federally illegal in multiple different ways. US Customs seizes and destroys many containerloads of them. Plenty still get through. That does not mean "Olly olly oxen free!" legality by simply having sneaked through Customs. Most states' vehicle codes don't contain language against them, and in those states whose codes do prohibit them most users get away with them because the state chooses not to enforce. Does that make them legal? No, it does not, any more than getting away with robbing a bank or running a red light makes either of those things legal, any more than getting a warning rather than a ticket for going 74 in a 65 zone means it was legal.

some states allow "pulsed" brake lights

One state has a line in a very strange place in their vehicle code, that says the CHMSL may flash. The phrasing makes it obvious that it was put there at the behest of one specific vendor of CHMSL flashers, located in that state. Another state has a similarly bizarrely placed line specifying that one particular brand of blue headlight bulb is legal -- and what do you know, the maker has its headquarters in that very state! Both of these provisions (and many others like them) are null and void by dint of Federal preemption, and these two examples are a good, clear illustration of why it's best that the Federal regulations, whatever their shortcomings (and there are plenty) trump these kinds of state-level shenanigans.

others go along with Federal guidelines that apparently prohibit such operation.

There is no such thing as Federal "guidelines" on automotive lighting. Regulations are regulations. They are rules, not suggestions or "guidelines". Compliance is mandatory, not suggested or preferred or optional.
 
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-Virgil-

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There are no regulations anywhere in the world that require a vehicle's brake to be applied before the engine will start, and there are no vehicles built that way. But I doubt foot-on-brake starting is killing the CHMSL bulbs. Their wattage is too low and they're "cushioned" by too much thin wire for there to be much of any surge-kill effect. I suspect poor-quality bulbs are a more likely cause of the early/repeated failures.
 

Qship1996

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Yes, probably cheaply made bulbs......standard Sylvania 921 always bought at local auto zone/Advance/Poopboys. The Stanley 3496/3497 in tail/stop/turn seem much longer lasting. Will try the 921X next time!!!!!
 
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iroc409

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I've had enough vehicles try to get away while starting that I always use the brakes when I start a vehicle (unless of course I'm trying to move a car with a starter--BTDT). Never had a problem with any brake lights failing prematurely due to it.
 

Hamilton Felix

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The states changed their statutes, the Feds advised the states that importation, distribution, sale (and installation by regulated parties) of vehicle equipment noncompliant with the Federal standards remained a Federal crime subject to civil penalties and Customs seizure, etc., regardless of what the states put in their codes. The states said "We're not going to enforce that." The Feds said "You don't have to; we'll be watching the ports." And they did. Many containerloads of noncompliant headlamps were seized and destroyed by US Customs. Some got through

Could this be why I used to buy Euro Code Cibie lights marked "Motorcycle?"

You know, all this talk has me almost curious enough to buy a standard 921 bulb, so I'll have a new one to compare with the new Raybrig R118 bulbs when they arrive. I bought the 2007 Corolla in 2008 with 46K on it. It now has something over 165K on it. I'm probably using the 2007 Toyota OEM bulbs that came with the car.
 

budynabuick

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There is no go/no-go number of lines. On this or any other forum, it is polite to quote only enough to make it clear exactly whom or what you're responding to, if it's not clear without a quote. As you can see, in this post I have quoted seven of your words. And I did so only to provide an example; this response would not have been confusing or unclear if I had quoted nothing at all. Thanks for playing along!

Got it!!! I have done that in the past and actually meant to do so in the post in question. Thank you for the kindly explanation. I will thin the quotes from now on.

Keith, who don"t like to make waves
 

AnAppleSnail

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It turns out that (of course) I do NOT have to press the brake to start the car - just to shift out of park. It's a good habit though, as mentioned by iroc409.
 

-Virgil-

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Keith (budynabuick): Great, but if ya actually "got it", why'd you unnecessarily quote my whole, entire post…? I don't want to seem like I'm harassing you, but…dangit…!
 

-Virgil-

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I disagree that stepping on the brake while starting the engine is a good habit. Anyone who's had cars try to "get away" when started, is doing it wrong.
 

AnAppleSnail

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Hills and a shot parking brake, perhaps. I haven't abused my cars to break the 'won't roll in park' but some people do.
 

Alaric Darconville

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I disagree that stepping on the brake while starting the engine is a good habit. Anyone who's had cars try to "get away" when started, is doing it wrong.
+1

Hills and a shot parking brake, perhaps. I haven't abused my cars to break the 'won't roll in park' but some people do.
If the car hadn't already gotten away, why would it just from starting the engine? Park is at the very least 'neutral' and should also have a pawl or other mechanism to prevent rolling. If the pawl fails, the engine is still not going to be able to drive the wheels. Just climbing in a car ready to roll like that should have started it rolling.

If the transmission somehow pops out of P or N into R or D or any of the other selections, remember: If you're in the car starting it, you're in the car with a foot near the pedal anyway, so that doesn't quite wash.
 
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