Charging Rate Question

Flatshovel

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I have been reading the threads here about proper charging of AA nimh cells. I have read that the proper charging rate is between 0.5c to 1c. Is this correct? The reason I am asking is that I normally charge all my cells at 0.5c and some get warmer than others, I think I may suspect that I have crap cells as they are about 4 years old. To get the proper life out of the batteries around 500 charges should I charge at 0.5c to 1c. I have read that I should charge at a slower rate as not to heat the batteries to much, If I fast charge than the batteries may only get around 150 charges. Is this information correct?

Thanks,
Joey
 

Niconical

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Yes, 0.5C to 1C.

You can go lower than that, if you are fully confident that your charger can reliably terminate at lower speeds, and you can go higher than that with a gradual trade off in terms of overall life of the battery, but if you stick to 0.5C to 1C for your nimh you'll be doing just fine.
 

PeAK

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....To get the proper life out of the batteries around 500 charges should I charge at 0.5c to 1c. I have read that I should charge at a slower rate as not to heat the batteries to much, If I fast charge than the batteries may only get around 150 charges. Is this information correct?

The 0.5C rates is only for smart chargers using negative delta-V to stop the charge. If you want about 500 charges, you should charge up your batteries less fully and stop the charge around 1.45V. The problem is that there are not many chargers around that do this automatically.
 

Bright+

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There are a few methods of charge termination. Sanyo branded eneloop charger actually charges at 0.15C assuming 2Ah eneloop cells.

It's harder to design one to accommodate a wide range of cells. Many chargers are built with target cell capacity. So, when 1800mAh was the design maximum, the hard timer was set to terminate at point where there's no way an empty 1800mAh cells couldn't be fully charged at the current x set time.

When you use an older charger with newer high capacity cells then its quite likely that you'll run into the timer back-up and halt the charging before its full.

Universal chargers run a risk of serious over-charging when the primary termination means is missed.


negative delta V is very common
some other ones are:
zero delta v
peak v
dv/dt
dT(temp)/dt

The charger can be based on general purpose charging IC with the algorithm already made or something unique.

examples of general purpose IC:
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=106
 
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mfm

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Sanyo branded eneloop charger actually charges at 0.15C assuming 2Ah eneloop cells.
Cheap chargers are ment to be cheap, not necessarily good.

My cheap eneloop branded charger is charging at 0.275C and that even missed termination on one of the cells in the few tests I did (atleast it took 25 minutes longer than what was listed as the typical charge time).

All battery manufacturers recommend 1C, some recommend 0.5C-1C.
 

SilverFox

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Hello Flatshovel,

Welcome to CPF.

The standard that the battery manufacturers use requires that cells survive 500 cycles being charged at 0.1C for 16 hours, and being discharged at 0.2C down to 1.0 volts, under standard laboratory temperature and humidity. A 0.2C discharge should empty the cell in 5 hours, and the standard calls for the cells lasting at least 3 hours in order to satisfy this specification.

If everyone had lots of time for charging, and only required a 0.2C discharge rate, we would be using the standard charge all of the time.

The hobby industry has shown that cells are more vibrant in use when they are charged at, or above, the rate that they are used. This has pushed the charging rates up, and the pendalum went so far that there were some battery packs that blew up causing some damage to some people. This ended up with charger manufacturers suggesting that the maximum charge rate should be 1C, although many people involved in RC find that they get better performance when charging at 2C.

The problem with higher charging rates is temperature. The cells heat up during the charge, and heat breaks down the electrolyte in the cell. The key to high charging rates is charge termination. If you can stop the charge before heat damage is done to the cell, you can charge at higher rates without cycle life performance degradation.

In fact, an alternate way of standard cycle life testing involves charging and discharging at 1C over most of the charge/discharge cycles. This cuts down on the time it takes to test a batch of cells, and many manufacturers use this accepted alternate method of testing.

This means that you should be able to get 500 cycles from your cells charging them and discharging them at 1C. The key, as others have mentioned, is reliable charge termination. Now the variable of the charger comes into play. A high quality charger will properly terminate the charge before damaging the cell, most of the time. Low quality chargers will do fine with vibrant cells, but may have difficulties with well used, or crap, cells.

Unfortunately, cycle testing with all the various chargers is impossible to do. There are too many chargers, and the process is very time consuming. I did run some tests on the Energizer 15 minute charger, and found that vibrant cells lasted around 150 cycles. Keep in mind that is being charged at close to 4C. The cells did get hot during the charge, and this did result in reduced performance.

This indicates that you are right. Fast charging (15 minute charging) will reduce your cycle life to around 150 charge/discharge cycles. However, a normal charge rate (60 minute charging) is actually listed as an alternate cycle testing that the battery manufacturers use will give you over 500 charge/discharge cycles, IF proper termination is used. Beyond this, slow charging (0.1C for 16 hours) is the standard.

The -dV method of charge termination is used by most charger manufacturers. In reviewing the -dV signal, the battery manufacturers state that the strongest signal comes when cells are charged in the 0.5C - 1.0C range, but they list most of their test results using a 1C charge rate. With the increase in cell capacity, the charger manufacturers have had to find other methods of terminating the charge because it would be too expensive to manufacture a "cheap" high output charger, and then it wouldn't be suitable for cells of differing capacities.

The charger manufacturers have a difficult task. They are working within price constraints and still are trying to find a good method of charge termination. They don't feel that the market will stand a charger that comes with a 50 page instruction manual and costs $100. Also there are liability issues associated with a more complex piece of equipment. Since most people place value on price and ease of use, they try to put together an affordable package that does a reasonable job of charging the cells.

The answer to your question depends on the performance of your charger.

Tom
 

Bright+

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Cheap chargers are ment to be cheap, not necessarily good.

My cheap eneloop branded charger is charging at 0.275C and that even missed termination on one of the cells in the few tests I did (atleast it took 25 minutes longer than what was listed as the typical charge time).

All battery manufacturers recommend 1C, some recommend 0.5C-1C.

What was the state of charge at the beginning and did you monitor the voltage, current as well as the temperature? Some ICs are setup to ignore -delta V for a set amount of time.
 

TakeTheActive

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I have been reading the threads here about proper charging of AA nimh cells... ...The reason I am asking is that I normally charge all my cells at 0.5c and some get warmer than others, I think I may suspect that I have crap cells as they are about 4 years old...
  • What charger are you using @ 0.5C?
    .
  • What Quantity / Brand / Capacity / Age are your cells?
...To get the proper life out of the batteries around 500 charges should I charge at 0.5c to 1c...
If you cycle your cells once-per-week for 10 years, that's 520 cycles. By 10 years, most folks cells have either turned to *CRAP* or just plain died of 'old age' / lack-of-use.

How often do you cycle your cells?

Some of the cells owned by CPF members get more cycles in their chargers than in their devices and STILL don't reach 500 cycles in 10 years!

...I have read that I should charge at a slower rate as not to heat the batteries to much...
You need to pick a Charge Rate that allows your charger to terminate properly and also doesn't overheat your cells. As cells age, their Internal Resistance increases, they need a higher Charge Rate to terminate properly; higher Internal Resistance causes more heat; a higher Charge Rate causes even more heat - you get the picture.

Measure the Internal Resistance of your 'warm' cells if your interested.

LOTs of good CPF 'Batteries Included' Archive info can be found in my Sig Line LINK.

Have fun! :)

P.S. 10 Total Posts since May 2008 - doing a lot of reading, eh? ;)
 

Flatshovel

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Thanks for all the reply's. I am using a LaCrosse BC900 V35 charger. The cells I am using are Energizer 1600mah and I am charging them at 1000mah. Again the cells are about 3 to 4 years old.
I have 6 total, I did a capacity test on them last night and some cells are only charging up to 1000mah and some others get to around 1350 and stop. I usually only cycle these battery's as I need them, I charge them up and put them into a battery holder and use them and then charge them back up. I have some new GP batterys that I recently got with a radio I ordered around christmas time and they are 2300mah AA and I have been charging them at 1000mah which is a little less than 0.5, and my charger has been terminating around 2280mah. I think I need to step up the charge rate to 1500mah on these as that would be in the range of 0.5 to 1c charge rate. Also the cells only get warm but not hot, the Energizer cells get hot when charging them. Would I be better off dumping the LaCrosse charger and get a Maha charger that will charge the battery's more efficiently? I have not had any problems with my LaCrosse BC900 but somehow wish I had bought a Maha charger to start with.
 

Magic Matt

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The Maha C9000 picks 1000mAh as it's default charge rate. On most AA cells that would be in the 0.5C to 1C range anyway.

Energizer 1600mah ... 1000mAh = 0.63C

Eneloop 2000mAh ... 1000mAh = 0.5C

Standard 1300mAh NiMH ... 1000mAh = 0.77C

High capacity 2700 NiMH ... 1000mAh = 0.38C but that's still high enough for reasonable DeltaV termination on those cells.


I'd question the capacity of the cells that are terminating early. As far as I know, the issue with charging rate is missed termination - ie charging for too long... if they're terminating early then I suspect they just don't have the capacity stated and the charger is operating correctly.
 

TakeTheActive

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...I am using a LaCrosse BC900 V35 charger. The cells I am using are Energizer 1600mah and I am charging them at 1000mah. Again the cells are about 3 to 4 years old.

I have 6 total, I did a capacity test on them last night and some cells are only charging up to 1000mah and some others get to around 1350 and stop. I usually only cycle these battery's as I need them...
The Energizer 1600mAh cells with 1000mAh Capacity probably have developed high Internal Resistance from Self-Discharge from sitting around. If they get hot with a Charge Rate of 1000mA, drop it to 700mA. If you want to invest the time attempting to 'condition them', run several back-to-back Deep Discharges followed by a Slow Charge (0.1C for 16 Hrs if you can; otherwise, 200mA). Capacity @ 700/350 will be higher than @ 1000/500 so don't pop open the champagne.

...I have some new GP batterys... ...they are 2300mah AA and I have been charging them at 1000mah... ...my charger has been terminating around 2280mah. I think I need to step up the charge rate to 1500mah on these as that would be in the range of 0.5 to 1c charge rate. Also the cells only get warm but not hot, the Energizer cells get hot when charging them...
2280mAh from a cell labeled 2300mAh is fine. You can experiment with 1500mA but expect more heat and note the termination voltage.

Also, please make sure you understand the difference between ACCUMULATED CAPACITY and DISCHARGE CAPACITY and state the BC-900 Function used when you're posting your numbers.

...Would I be better off dumping the LaCrosse charger and get a Maha charger that will charge the battery's more efficiently?
If you were starting out today and deciding between the La Crosse BC-9009 or the Maha MH-C9000, of course, get the C9000. But if your BC-900 v35 is working properly, I see no reason, especially with your small cell inventory, to change. The BC-900 can 'manually' accomplish many of the tasks that the C9000 does automatically.

One question you didn't reply to was how often you cycle your cells. And a new question is whether you store them charged or discharged, so here's my 'blind' recommendation - when you remove the discharged cells from the device, partially charge them ~25%. Then, when you need them, run a DISCHARGE cycle (Discharge / Charge / Stop.) Don't store cells fully charged and don't store discharged cells. And, since your inventory is non-LSD, be sure to cycle your cells once-a-month.
 

noisebeam

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I have a recent (Dec'09) Maha c9000.

Is there any reason I shouldn't use the c9000 default charge rate (1000ma) for the (also new) Sanyo 2700's I have? I prefer to use 1000 out of pure laziness, but can use different if 'better'. Better in quotes as I am aware of different measures of better.

Would it matter if topping off vs. charging a well used battery set? I use these batteries in a Fenix LD20 mostly in Turbo mode.
 

Niconical

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I have a recent (Dec'09) Maha c9000.

Is there any reason I shouldn't use the c9000 default charge rate (1000ma) for the (also new) Sanyo 2700's I have? I prefer to use 1000 out of pure laziness, but can use different if 'better'. Better in quotes as I am aware of different measures of better.

Would it matter if topping off vs. charging a well used battery set? I use these batteries in a Fenix LD20 mostly in Turbo mode.

Charging those at 1000ma in the C9000 will be just right. Insert, walk away.

Also bear in mind that although the C9000 terminates very well, it also adds a small top off charge, so leaving them for an hour or 2 after they show as "done" will squeeze in that last bit of shinyjuice.

As for charging well used vs topping off, in normal use you can top off as you want, then every few weeks or maybe 10 to 15 charges give them a full discharge on the C9000, then fully charge.

Finally maybe every few months or so give them a break-in. Takes 39 hours but worth it once or twice per year if the batts are in regular hard use.
 

noisebeam

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Thanks. Yes, I track these on spreadsheet and did an initial burn in and will do another in several months.

Just for fun here are the 12/30/09 burn in (at 2700) results (keep in mind new batteries, a c9000 discharge done first) - also the impedance check voltage about a month later.

S1: BI: 2393mah, IC: 1.58V
S2: BI: 2509mah, IC: 1.59V
S3: BI: 2491mah, IC: 1.53V
S4: BI: 2452may, IC: 1.52V

Does anyone know how a full deplete using Fenix L2D (that is until light auto switches out of Turbo to low mode) compares to c9000 full discharge? I suppose I could test.
 
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JML

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So what's the recommended charge rate for new AA Eneloops in the Maha C9000, for maximizing the capacity?

.5c = 1000 mA
.3c = 600 mA
.1c = 200 mA

I'm getting really confused...
 

Mr Happy

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So what's the recommended charge rate for new AA Eneloops in the Maha C9000, for maximizing the capacity?

.5c = 1000 mA
.3c = 600 mA
.1c = 200 mA

I'm getting really confused...

Charge them at 1000 mA.

Run a refresh/analyze every few weeks at 1000 mA charge/500 mA discharge.

Run a break-in cycle when new and then repeat every 6-12 months entering 2000 mA as the capacity. Discharge them before starting the break-in.
 
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